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Posted: 11/3/2004 4:05 PM
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feitclub
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
I watched this movie and I really liked it. I'd consider it a "playaround" rather than a time attack.
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Posted: 11/3/2004 4:06 PM
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Josh_the_FunkDOC
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Wait, I was thinking of the over 4 seconds that could be saved in the fight with Morton. That definitely should be redone, but the rest doesn't seem like a big deal. feitclub: Nah, he's aiming for speed first and foremost. This is like the SMB3 movies in aiming to be as entertaining as possible while going for perfect speed. Me likey. =) -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Posted: 11/3/2004 4:10 PM
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Mazzic
Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden
Ok, lets get this right now. The hex-edit improvement whould be 4 frames if it succed, which isn't nesesairy to redo the entire movie for. The thing Josh talked about is the fight against Morton Kopa using the fire flower which redone whould save around 4 sekond, which must be redone. There, hope I got that right.
Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(
Posted: 11/3/2004 4:46 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
okay to get this clear; right now my movie has 3 flaws (that I know of): - 3-4 frames wasted in the starting sequence (who cares... :P) - ~ 5 frames too slow in the ghost house (at least Michael said he did it faster) - Morton Koopa can be done about 260 frames (= 4 seconds!) faster with the fireflower (which costs about 10 frames to get, so overall this would be 250 frames faster) problem: to get the fireflower, I have to go back to Donut Plains 2, where I replaced the fireflower with a feather (stupid me, didn't think ahead... well I didn't know I'd still need the fireflower). this means, I'll also do the ghost house again eventually, so I'll try to improve that as well. maybe Michael can send me or publish his version somewhere? And concerning the hex-editing, I first tried to just replace Donut Plains 2 with a new version. In the old version I'm standing still and just looking up for quite some time, so I made a screenshot of it and redid the part and stopped at the exact same place, but nevertheless it desynched just a few seconds later. Then I changed just a little part in Yoshi's Island 2, but even that small part made the movie desynch some time later. Conclusion ==> hex editing Super Mario World = NOO :P So, you convinced me, I will redo everything from Donut Plains 2 upwards, and just try to copy my old version except for the parts mentioned above... Just recently I found out about the pause/backslash option, which makes it a lot more comfortable than playing at 1000 ms, so I hope this won't take too long... and yes feitclub, this movie's primary aim is the fastest time possible. For each level I first do a clear run without hitting any enemies or blocks or whatever and write down the frame that I reach the goal. But as this movie will probably last more than an hour in the end, I try to make it as entertaining as possible and just hit as much stuff as possible without losing a single frame :) (here I mostly aim for enemies=points, then coins, and then things that don't bring any benefit like !-blocks and stuff like that)
Posted: 11/3/2004 5:00 PM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
You got it right mazzic, I got it wrong. Sorry. (Men jag är tveksam till om han verkligen är mänsklig :P)
Posted: 11/3/2004 5:05 PM
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Josh_the_FunkDOC
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
I admire your persistence, VIPer. And I don't use SNES9x, but is that pause/backslash thing you're referring to the single-frame advance? That feature is a beauty, I finally started using it in my NES movies and it makes things much much easier. As you probably already figured out, it'll likely do the same for you. =) Keep it up, Josh.
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Posted: 11/3/2004 5:22 PM
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Mazzic
Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden
One thing about the route, if your planing ot redo from DP 2 why not skipp the "Secret" exit (I know it's the normal in the gamecode but I don't care, the flying part is the secret XD) and come back and do it when your backtracking from yoshi's island after you've done star world?
Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(
Posted: 11/3/2004 5:36 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
yes Josh it's single frame advance. Indeed very nice, I kept getting so annoyed at the 1000 ms slowlyness in some parts, but on the other hand it still didn't display every frame and often jumped over that exact frame that I needed... only problem is that I don't hear any sounds with it, but I found out that you can't 100% "trust" the sounds anyway (in regards to frame-checking), the optical method is safer considering the route, let's see... Donut Plains 1 secret -> automatically takes me to Donut Secret 1 Donut Secret 1 normal -> automatically takes me to Donut Ghost House now I'd need 1 "unforced movement" to go back to Donut Secret 1 or, if I do the Ghost House secret exit, I'd need 2 unforced movements from Top Secret Area back down to Donut Secret 1. but therefore I'd save this movement on the normal route... hmm you're right, it doesn't make a difference. And that's probably more exciting if there's some time inbetween it rather than doing the same level twice within 1 minute... Thanks for the idea! I plan to do the same in the Forest of Illusions: First FOI1 secret exit, then Forest Ghost House secret exit (takes me back to FOI1), and then continue the normal route.
Posted: 11/3/2004 7:38 PM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I kept getting so annoyed at the 1000 ms slowlyness in some parts Why do you play at such a slow speed? That's less than 2%, which is rediculous. Anything less than about 5% won't help your accuracy at all since 5% is slow enough to press the buttons at exactly the right frames. As for the way I got to the door in DGH 5 frames faster, just spin fly up against the left edge of the screen, then when you get close to the platform go right and just miss the corner, and experiment by letting go of B in each frame to see which is best, and I think I might have also had to let go of Y for a short time so I wouldn't land too far to the right.
Posted: 11/3/2004 8:15 PM
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Josh_the_FunkDOC
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Hmm, didn't Bisqwit play at like 2% for his Rockman movie? Still, that IS ridiculous, especially with the presence of a frame-advance ability. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Posted: 11/3/2004 10:15 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
as I said, I didn't know about the single frame advance, and if you play at 500 ms (or even at 1000 ms) it doesn't show every single frame and "jumps" over some frames, which might be just the ones that are important (for example during flying, where it IS very important). Or also on the world map, when I want to enter a level as fast as possible, and every frame counts of course I didn't play the whole game at 1000 ms, for some parts 70 ms or 140 ms is enough
Posted: 11/4/2004 12:13 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Hmm, didn't Bisqwit play at like 2% for his Rockman movie? Still, that IS ridiculous, especially with the presence of a frame-advance ability. No, he played at 5%. 2% is pointless since it doesn't help your accuracy at all, 5% is slow enough to be as accurate as possible (assuming the emulator doesn't skip frames, which Famtasia doesn't at 5% speed). http://tasvideos.org/queue.cgi?id=64
Posted: 11/4/2004 1:04 AM
Post subject: Re: 2% speed
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
There were indeed some situations where I did play at 2% speed. Situations like this (focus: upper right and lower right corner): There were three or four of them, and I had to use 2% speed at them, because certain exact button sequences are required on consequent frames for a relatively long time.
Posted: 11/4/2004 11:52 AM
Post subject: Cheese Bridge
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A_Runnelid
Joined: 4/23/2004
Posts: 150
One thing I'd like to mention to take into consideration for Cheese Bridge, is that it would be possible to fly (without Yoshi, that is) through this course from beginning to end, accessing the secret exit. I did this on my SNES a few years ago, speedrunning levels. Andreas
Posted: 11/4/2004 12:41 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
Yes Andreas I know, that's also what I plan to do for the secret exit. But for the normal exit Yoshi is a lot faster, because he gets the wings in the middle of the level, which take him to the Bonus stage. If you drop out of the screen there, the level directly ends. So you save the whole 2nd part of the normal level, and the credits stuff after you reached the goal. This makes up about 900 frames, so that's definately worth it. Btw good news, I played around with the hex-editor a bit more, and could copy big parts of Donut Plains 2 secret and the whole Green Switch Palace, just had to edit a few frames because enemies were in slightly different positions. Unfortunately I lost 3 of those "magic random frames" that I had got last time... (-> see my posting from 29.10 2004 16:49:16). Guess there's nothing I can do about that... Now I think I'll have to redo the whole first part of Donut Plains 2 normal, because there I collected 1 mushroom and 2 feathers, which all need to be undone :P. But maybe I'm lucky and can copy most of the other stuff up to castle#2 :)
Posted: 11/4/2004 3:14 PM
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Gigafrost
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
That'd be good and convenient! Good luck! :)
07-24-2009: 2595 anime DVDs and counting...
Posted: 11/5/2004 8:39 AM
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Mazzic
Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden
Maybe this a far too big request but could you post a full description of the route you're planing? I can't stop wondering how you'll get to the secret levels in DP.
Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(
Posted: 11/8/2004 10:15 AM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
I was on a LAN session over the weekend, therefore not much progress in my video. I did some improvements in the first levels and hexed them into the old movie, unfortunately sometimes I had to wait 1 or 2 frames on the world map or otherwise the movie would desynch. Nevertheless I gained 8 extra frames up to Donut Plains 2. There I found a nice glitch, producing a block out of nowhere :) (I don't profit from it, but it looks cool). Right now I'm at the "shell jump" into the tube. Maybe I can abuse the glitch to get into the pipe earlier, I'll test that out. ---edit--- I just tested it out, I cannot profit from the block glitch, but therefore I found another way to get into the tube faster! Instead of throwing the shell against the wall, I throw it into the air and then jump on it on its way down. Haven't played with frames counter on, but I guess that's at least 15-20 frames faster :) ---/edit--- Here is a list of my complete worldmap route: 
#    Level                     F   N   U
1    Yoshi's Island 1          0   1   0
2    Yellow Switch Palace      1   0   0
3    Yoshi's Island 2          0   3   0
4    Yoshi's Island 3          1   0   0
5    Yoshi's Island 4          1   0   0
6    #1 Iggy's Castle          1   0   0
7    Donut Plains 1            1   0   0
8    Donut Plains 2 b          1   0   0
9    Green Switch Palace       1   0   0
10   Donut Plains 2            0   1   0
11   Donut Ghost House         1   0   0
12   Donut Plains 3            1   0   0
13   Donut Plains 4            1   0   0
14   #2 Morton's Castle        1   0   0
15   Vanilla Dome 1            1   0   0
16   Vanilla Dome 2 b          1   0   0
17   Red Switch Palace         1   0   0
18   Vanilla Dome 2            0   1   0
19   Vanilla Ghost House       1   0   0
20   Vanilla Dome 3            1   0   0
21   Vanilla Dome 4            1   0   0
22   #3 Lemmy's Castle         1   0   0
23   Cheese Bridge             1   0   0
24   Cookie Mountain           1   0   0
25   Cheese Bridge b           1   0   2
26   Soda Lake                 1   0   0
27   Star World 3 b            1   1   0
28   Star World 4 b            1   1   0
29   Star World 5              1   1   0
30   Star World 1 b            1   1   0
31   Star World 2 b            1   1   0
32   Star World 4              1   1   2
33   Star World 3              1   1   0
34   Star World 2              1   1   0
35   Star World 1              1   1   0
36   Star World 5 b            1   1   0
37   Gnarly                    1   1   0
38   Tubular                   1   0   0
39   Way Cool                  1   0   0
40   Awesome                   1   0   0
41   Mondo                     1   0   0
42   Groovy                    1   0   0
43   Outrageous                1   0   0
44   Funky                     1   0   0
45   Donut Plains 1 b          1   0   5
46   Donut Secret 1            1   0   0
47   Donut Ghost House b       1   0   0
48   Donut Secret 1 b          1   1   1
49   Donut Secret House b      1   0   0
50   Donut Secret House        1   0   1
51   Donut Secret 2            1   1   0
52   Vanilla Dome 1 b          1   1   3
53   Vanilla Secret 1 b        1   0   0
54   Vanilla Secret 1          1   0   1
55   Vanilla Secret 2          1   1   0
56   Vanilla Secret 3          1   0   0
57   Vanilla Fortress          1   0   0
58   Butter Bridge 1           1   0   0
59   Butter Bridge 2           1   0   0
60   #4 Ludwig's Castle        1   0   0
61   Forest Of Illusions 1 b   1   0   0
62   Forest Ghost House b      1   0   0
63   Forest Of Illusions 1     1   0   0
64   Forest Of Illusions 2 b   1   0   0
65   Blue Switch Palace        1   0   0
66   Forest Of Illusions 2     0   1   0
67   Forest Of Illusions 3     1   0   0
68   Forest Ghost House        1   0   0
69   Forest Of Illusions 4 b   1   0   0
70   Forest Secret Area        1   0   0
71   Forest Fortress           1   0   0
72   Forest Of Illusions 4     1   0   3
73   Forest Of Illusions 3 b   1   0   1
74   #5 Roy's Castle           1   0   0
75   Chocolate Island 1        1   0   0
76   Chocolate Ghost House     1   0   0
77   Chocolate Island 2 b      1   0   0
78   Chocolate Secret          1   1   0
79   Chocolate Island 2        1   0   3
80   Chocolate Island 3        1   0   0
81   Chocolate Island 3 b      1   0   0
82   Chocolate Fortress        1   0   0
83   Chocolate Island 4        1   0   0
84   Chocolate Island 5        1   0   0
85   #6 Wendy's Castle         1   0   0
86   Sunken Ghost Ship         1   0   0
87   Valley Of Bowser 1        1   0   0
88   Valley Of Bowser 2        1   0   0
89   Valley Ghost House b      1   0   0
90   Valley Ghost House        1   0   1
91   Valley Of Bowser 3        1   0   0
92   Valley Of Bowser 4 b      1   0   0
93   Valley Of Bowser 4        1   0   1
94   #7 Larry's Castle         1   0   0
95   Valley Of Bowser 2 b      1   0   3
96   Valley Fortress           1   0   0
97   Bowser's Back Door        1   0   0

     Total:                    92  23  27

b = secret goal
F = forced movements
N = necessary movements (e.g. going back from a switch palace or Top Secret Area)
U = unnecessary movements
Here is an alternative route: 
22   #3 Lemmy's Castle          1   0   0
23   Cheese Bridge b            1   0   0
24   Soda Lake                  1   0   0
25   Cheese Bridge              1   0   2
26   Cookie Mountain            1   0   0
27   #4 Ludwig's Castle         1   0   0
28   Forest Of Illusions 1 b    1   0   0
29   Forest Ghost House         1   0   0
30   Forest Of Illusions 4 b    1   0   0
31   Forest Secret Area         1   0   0
32   Forest Fortress            1   0   0
33   Star World 4 b             1   1   0
34   Star World 5               1   1   0
35   Star World 1 b             1   1   0
36   Star World 2 b             1   1   0
37   Star World 3 b             1   1   0
38   Star World 4               1   1   0
39   Star World 3               1   1   0
40   Star World 2               1   1   0
41   Star World 1               1   1   0
42   Star World 5 b             1   1   0
43   Gnarly                     1   1   0
44   Tubular                    1   0   0
45   Way Cool                   1   0   0
46   Awesome                    1   0   0
47   Mondo                      1   0   0
48   Groovy                     1   0   0
49   Outrageous                 1   0   0
50   Funky                      1   0   0
51   Donut Plains 1 b           1   0   5
52   Donut Secret 1             1   0   0
53   Donut Ghost House b        1   0   0
54   Donut Secret 1 b           1   1   1
55   Donut Secret House b       1   0   0
56   Donut Secret House         1   0   1
57   Donut Secret 2             1   1   0
58   Vanilla Dome 1 b           1   1   3
59   Vanilla Secret 1 b         1   0   0
60   Vanilla Secret 1           1   0   1
61   Vanilla Secret 2           1   1   0
62   Vanilla Secret 3           1   0   0
63   Vanilla Fortress           1   0   0
64   Butter Bridge 1            1   0   0
65   Butter Bridge 2            1   0   0
66   Forest Of Illusions 1      1   0   1
67   Forest Of Illusions 2 b    1   0   0
68   Blue Switch Place          1   0   0
69   Forest Of Illusions 2      0   1   0
70   Forest Of Illusions 3      1   0   0
71   Forest Ghost House b       1   0   0
72   Forest Of Illusions 4      1   0   2
73   Forest Of Illusions 3 b    1   0   1
74   #5 Roy's Castle            1   0   0
The alternative route makes 2 unnecessary movements less, but therefore it has 2 long unnecessary movements (Island Star Road -> Soda Lake, Castle #4 -> Forest Of Illusions 1) in contrast to only 1 long unnecessary movement in the first route (Forest Fortress -> Forest Of Illusions 4). So I think the first route is faster in the end, but I'll test that out. I'm also not yet sure about the ideal route on Chocolate Island, whether it's better to first do the "underworld" and then the overworld, or the other way round. But it's still a long way till I get there... :P
Posted: 11/8/2004 12:08 PM
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Mazzic
Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden
Route: I like the route you've choosed, great planing man! And probably version 1 is faster judgíng from your description. Chocolate Island: Going the secret way first will force you too go back the same way you came. However, going the main way first will force you too go back the entire "Overworld route" too Chocolate Island 2 but then you won't have too use the pipes as much... I think going the main route first than backtrack to Chocolate Island 2 -> Chocltate Secret -> Wendy's Castle is faster because the pipe animation fadeout is so slow.
Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(
Posted: 11/8/2004 5:44 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
ok I stopped the frames which differ in routes 1 and 2, and route 1 is 130 frames faster. It's also better, because I can enter Cheese Bridge with Yoshi. So, I will take this route, I don't think there's any faster way (any other route would include taking the star road at least twice more, which means 2x185=370 frames more) Concerning chocolate island: Both routes are exactly equally fast! Going back from castle #6 to Chocolate Island 2 takes 270 frames, plus another 185 frames from the tube to castle #6. And the way from the left tube to Chocolate Island 2 lasts 455 frames. So, I think I'll first do the underworld and then the overworld. ---edit---
VIPer7 wrote:
Haven't played with frames counter on, but I guess that's at least 15-20 frames faster :)
Hmm, I must apologize, I guessed wrong... it's not 15-20 frames faster... it's more like 115-120 frames faster!!! = 2 seconds, 3 time units in the game!! So that's 4 seconds total, because I do it in both normal and secret exit :) You can expect a new video by tomorrow, still gotta fix some desynchs, but I'm too tired for that now :O. Spent a few hours doing those jumps... The trick is: The shell needs to transform back into a beetle in the air, just before I jump on it. So that means, I have to smash it with the feather about 500 frames earlier, and then handle it with care :D
Posted: 11/9/2004 6:50 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
Here we go! You can download my new video here Almost every level has been improved or just optically tweaked, most of all Donut Plains 2, which was done almost 120 frames faster each. Donut Ghost House is 11 frames faster, I hope this satisfies Michael Fried ;). Donut Ghost House b was left out, I'll do it later when I return to Donut Plains (doesn't save or lose any time, but it's not as boring as doing the same level twice). Morton is defeated 263 frames faster, although switching to the fireflower costs 31 flames (and switching back to feather will cost another 26 frames), but it was still worth it :) I sometimes enter a level on the world map 1 or 2 frames later than it could have been done; in some cases this was done to trigger things in the following level (e.g. Yoshi's Island 3 or Donut Plains 2), sometimes it was done because otherwise the movie would have desynched later on and I didn't want to do the whole level all over again. So overall it *could* have been done 10-15 frames faster, but I think I finished all levels in the fastest way possible, and that's most important :) Overall, the new video is 460 frames (almost 8 seconds) faster than the old one (well actually 2571 frames, but that's because I did one level less) Ch-ch-check it out! :)
Posted: 11/9/2004 8:55 PM
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Mazzic
Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden
Wait wait wait. Do you mean you redid the entire movie?! Are you freaking nuts!? You're overhuman, man! Geez, this VIPer7 must be more "mad" then WalkerBoh...
Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(
Posted: 11/9/2004 8:59 PM
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TNSe
Emulator Coder
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 453
Location: Norway
WalkerBoh ain't mad, he's swedish. And video is looking great, actually quite great, can't wait for rest :E
Posted: 11/9/2004 9:43 PM
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Josh_the_FunkDOC
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
This movie is even more teh awesome now. Never would've expected there to be 8 seconds worth of improvement in that section, nice work man! -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Posted: 11/10/2004 12:22 AM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
call me mad or whatever you want, but when I had finally figured out how the hex-editing works, I just had another close look at each level and changed some passages that I didn't like; and then merged them with the other movie. So I didn't redo the entire movie, just like 1/3 of it. Most work went into Donut Plains 2 (a and b), there I had to redo almost everything, because I must not pick up any items... But as I spent so much time there, I also found out some new cool stuff, like the block glitch or the better shell jump. Donut Ghost House was done really quick, I just hadn't considered the A-button before. I have now done the first part of Vanilla Dome 1, you can have a look at it here. I think I did the first room in the fastest way possible, or does anybody know of a way to get through these blocks quicker?? The second room was done in like 10 minutes, I'll do some more tweaking on that tomorrow (both speed and bump on enemies), because I'll go to bed now :) Feel free to add comments, I'm thankful for every help!
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