Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
AngerFist wrote:
Comicalflop wrote:
Got proof?
I'll try. When you get older, you get longer legs and therefore you take longer steps. Often as a grown up, you don't wanna wear yourself out by side hopping because you get tired fast. But as a kid, you have lots of energy and shorter legs. So when you walk backwards as a child, your energy isnt fully used, thus young Link moves faster when he is side hopping.
So in Hyrule you reach old age at 17/18?
Also, I thought that like less than 0.005% of all video games ever actually have stamina as being a factor of the game.
Also, AKA, keep in mind, you went across all of hyrule to get that 3 second gain. In swordlesslink's TAS I think there aren't going to be any segments where he needs to backwalk for that long, he would probably do a superslide. Sidehopping does have a much faster initial velocity that makes it better for short distances, since backwalking takes a few frames to set up and sidehopping is still superior on any slope.
Also, AKA, keep in mind, you went across all of hyrule to get that 3 second gain. In swordlesslink's TAS I think there aren't going to be any segments where he needs to backwalk for that long, he would probably do a superslide. Sidehopping does have a much faster initial velocity that makes it better for short distances, since backwalking takes a few frames to set up and sidehopping is still superior on any slope.
Would need to be tested on a per-case basis, which he'd probably do at least once anyway. Just because of the nature of side hopping and the way it changes speed on different terrain, it should be somewhat obvious to test in every situation. Isn't it entirely possible, based on the up-down terrain sloping you encounter across most areas, that you might gain or lose several frames just by starting your sidehopping at a location a few pixels closer or further from the intended destination? Totally situation dependent, hybrid might be the fastest approach to try for.
Interesting test, though if it comes down to single frames then it's merited of course since its a TAS. Also make sure that there is no amount of backrunning time to where it starts making gains on the sidehops because backrun is slow to start and then constant afterwards, so if its a shorter distance, it may be quicker with sidehops still depending on how it all times out. Just something to be aware of.
AKA, when you emu tested it, did you go frame by frame or just fullspeed? because you can easily lose 3 seconds over the span of hyrule field if you were to mess up your sidehops a few times.
New trick which could save a little time, its called the super jump.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9JtMVTCnz18&NR=1
found by gamelinkx
EDIT: This doesn't need to be done on a corner, just so long as the object can be hopped onto.
this isn't new but isnt old. but it is the first time I've seen the "leftover" momentum used for jumping. When you superslide, after you let off the shield button it pushes you in a direction that is opposite the joystick or something. This is especially noticeable when on slippery surfaces (i was trying to use this before to get to ganon early without infinite sword in a much easier way by sliding off the top of the slippery hill and then hover and backflip into shield dropped bombchu boost... the angle of the slide was VERY noticeable because is changes with the joystick direction and is VERY sensitive) That leftover force can be used for many things... clipping through walls, etc. But when it pushes you against something that link can "hop onto" or hop to grab then the leftover force just pushes you past the object similarly to when you hop to grab something and press R with fast runnning cheats. Unfortunately it's less useful than a megajump, hover superslide, megaflip or bomb boosted hover. It can only be done with low hoppable objects while megaflips etc can be done without that, and bombboosted hover can also have groundjumps stored... mega jumps get way more height, and hoversuperslides are the same but don't require an extraneous object. couple that stuff with the fact that you can stand on pretty much anything you can grab, and that it has no options like infinitesword or groundjumps that can be used later on in it and it's generally not very applicable. But yes, that is one way you can use the leftover force from a superslide before it dissipates.
You can even use this force to clip through walls that a normal superslide cannot.
I'm guessing AKA just used turbo to do the side hops, which should average about 1 missed frame every 2 side hops or every 17*2=34 frames. 3 seconds is 180 frames, so miss that many you'd need to spend 180*34=6120 frames, or 102 seconds. Of course I'm guessing AKA "3 seconds could actually be more like 2.5 seconds which would equate to 85 seconds. So if AKA did a stretch that took longer than this side hopping is probably faster.
But it's really not relevant for long distances since neither would ever be used. It needs to tested case by case in the short distances that either could and would be used.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Hyrule Field is very hilly, so I'm guessing that you're correct spiderwaffle because all the hills on HF must have given sidehopping a huge advantage, which I guess was offset by frame inaccuracy.
For those curious, sidehopping on flats takes a press of A ever 21 frames. You can easily check the optimal frame by pressing A 7 frames before you touch the ground.
About the deku stick/slingshot strat when skipping the owl, it doesn't matter what timing you use as long you equip the slingshot, delay for 3 frames and then equip the deku stick.
Faster way to do the Ganon trials skip, the method is very simalar to what is shown in the video except you do a megaflip from the walkway via a bomb.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LekPAjAlyN8
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Well, I finally pulled off that ladder zip I was always going on about, and one of the weird properties is that it warps you to the end of the game. So it should be done by tomorrow.
Psyche!
SwordlessLink hasn't progressed past the first superslide from what I know, so there is still a lot of movie left. This one won't be done for a long time.
AKA: that faster variant is amazing. Is there anything unique about the barrier, or can this type of skip be done elsewhere?
AKA: that faster variant is amazing. Is there anything unique about the barrier, or can this type of skip be done elsewhere?
Comicalflop, N64 games are known to have very poor boundary detection, thats why some of the clipping glitches happen, its still possible to do stuff like this in post N64 era games, but requires much more creative and unauthordox strategies. Basically they made the loading zone in Ganon's Tower unnecesserily large much like they did with Jabu. From what I see Link backflips across an acute edge and partially goes through the wall and connects barely with the loading zone. Of course Something like this could easily have been avoided had they made the loading area smaller and not so close to the outer walls. I guess it was easier to implement it that way, and that anyone who was foolish enough to try would instantly be repelled by the barrier.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Its starting to seem like improvements are being found, and the run re-started at a rate greater then the progress in the run itself. It stands out because it is almost certainly the published run with the greatest amount of known improvements.
It will be a real thing of beauty when it finally does reach completion, but the pursuit of perfection can be a bitch sometimes.
That would work for master quest right? There was a guy that always wanted to know how to skip the trials in MQ without hover boots.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Its starting to seem like improvements are being found, and the run re-started at a rate greater then the progress in the run itself. It stands out because it is almost certainly the published run with the greatest amount of known improvements.
It will be a real thing of beauty when it finally does reach completion, but the pursuit of perfection can be a bitch sometimes.
Provided more than one person here is dedicated and intensely knowledgable about both the game and all these bleeding-edge discoveries, it would not be unrealistic to reach a point where you merely continue to completion rather than restart. Please don't quote the list of reasons because I don't want to hear it; the real world is a series of ever improving changes and although the possibilities of input inside a game are not endless and there is one theoretically fastest set of input, this is not an obfuscated C code wankfest and it's unlikely that at any given point our current best knowledge is truly the fastest way.
A TASer could knowingly shut himself off from the forum as a source of any new discoveries or information that would require a restarted run and create what is, in his personal microcosm of time, exposure, and known tricks, the fastest possible run, and this could be an acceptable improvement to the existing one. As it is now, the habits of excuses not to publish improvements, despite how the current posted run got where it is, is literally preventing this run from ever progressing. The authors involved in the previous record SMB movie were fully aware that at any time in the future a faster way could be discovered, but they produced the most perfect movie they could with their knowledge set. Because of the way this works you can extend that concept and cross barriers of time related to completing this particular run before an improvement is discovered. Until the run is completed we turn the TASer into schroedinger's cat and, logically anyway, satisfy everyone involved. While at the same time actually making progress of a meaningful sort rather than bending over and shitting out new tricks every week that drive the movie author insane with restarts.
Let the flaming commence; I just want to see this happen, and it's not going to as long as all you TAS geniuses (not sarcasm and not an insult) keep working on it and accidently discovering better ways to do things :)... take a break from it for a month or something, or do the opposite and deny our prospective movie author any new information, and create a movie that is perfect when rules of scope are obeyed!
Has anyone really tried to jump slash through that door in ToT as child so you can skip all 3 stones?
You can jump slash through other cracks like it, seems like it's worth some serious testing.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I am pretty sure that people have already REALLY tried that already.
What *you* need to do is REALLY think of a new suggestion that people haven't tried yet that might be helpful, rather than suggesting something people have already tried before numerous times with no legit success.
Joined: 12/27/2006
Posts: 532
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Comicalflop wrote:
I am pretty sure that people have already REALLY tried that already.
What *you* need to do is REALLY think of a new suggestion that people haven't tried yet that might be helpful, rather than suggesting something people have already tried before numerous times with no legit success.
Jeez, enough with the elitism already. He didn't know, alright? Not liking this attitude.
My published movies
[03:45:05] <Naohiro19> Soulrivers: ...
[03:45:19] <Soulrivers> ?
[03:46:35] <Naohiro19> <Soulrivers> No! <Naohiro19> So? <Soulrivers> Yes!
[03:46:48] <Naohiro19> joke
I am pretty sure that people have already REALLY tried that already.
What *you* need to do is REALLY think of a new suggestion that people haven't tried yet that might be helpful, rather than suggesting something people have already tried before numerous times with no legit success.
Jeez, enough with the elitism already. He didn't know, alright? Not liking this attitude.
I don't think that it was the question that annoyed ComicalFlop, it was the insinuation that he hadn't already thought of and tried something that obvious, insulting his intelligence.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
well no one logged the serious the testing that they did that I'm aware of.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I can assure you I've done serious testing in ToT, the only weakness is the on the left side of the door, but it requires speed that Link can't obtain. Plus even if Link was to get through it he'd fall into the void.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71pCMO4eidk
ZFG:
Someone with TAS:
The first frame over the void, jumpslash (Have your sword already out while sidehopping). It should get you into the door, then just walk on through. Will be very hard on console.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I've gotten closer on mupen. (I'm there right now testing as well.) Exactly how angled to the right can you be for it to work? I was able to swordslash on the first frame possible, and still missed, so it's going to be a question of angle positioning, not frame precision.
