yeah... luck and skill, they're basically the same thing. it's just a matter of luck who is most skilled. they happen to have the best genes and talents. and luck is skill because you have to play skillfully long enough that you get lucky.
yeah... luck and skill, they're basically the same thing. it's just a matter of luck who is most skilled. they happen to have the best genes and talents. and luck is skill because you have to play skillfully long enough that you get lucky.
Unexpected things will always happen in most games, that forces the player to lose time, no matter how skillful they are in any aspect. That is the part were you might get lucky, or not.
I didn't read a single post in this thread but I wanted to check it out because when someone mentioned it on IRC, I instantly figured Warp wrote it (even though I barely know anything about him?) and I wanted to make sure.
So this thread is awesome I'm sure.
Ok, now that I read the first post, this thread is awesome because Warp is complaining about "regular" speedruns being boring, yet he made the most boring post of all time.
IMO segmented runs (with restarts possible eg. at the beginning of each level) actually display *more* of the player's skill, not less.
Obviously coming from someone who has done no speedrunning at all. This is just pure stupidity. Anyone can do a great looking segmented speedrun. Just like anyone can TAS to a very high standard. It just takes patience.
Do you really think you can mash as fast as Frezy man, or have the reflexes to walljump 4 minutes into a perfect SMB run though?
A bit tired at the time of typing, so bear with me. It just seems like an interesting topic...
Stanski's right, it takes a LOT of patience and luck to pull off a segment exactly right, just as it does with a TAS. Is the reloading of all those savestates not just another way of segmenting a run (granted, illegitimate)? TASing should be considered a higher standard than a segmented run though, because elements of reflex are totally removed.
As for Warp's comment, where does this 'playing at full capability' come in if you can only do certain tricks one in every 20 attempts? A fluke is hardly 'full capability'. SS runs force you to think on the fly.
Back to the original topic though... Entertainment in a run is a side-effect. Even at this site, though, I would think that a run labelled as 'more entertaining' would still be obsoleted by a run that's just a few frames faster. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I would get.
I would think that a run labelled as 'more entertaining' would still be obsoleted by a run that's just a few frames faster. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I would get.
Generally, time is an absolute measure used to quantify a video's merit, but not always.
The little touches that make for interesting viewing are important, and sometimes realtime runs lack these when they could instead not lack them.
There's not a single, solitary trick in the history of video games that is as difficult as playing through the entire game in one sitting. You're comparing the ultimate test of endurance and improvisation to resetting until you get lucky. Give me a break.
There's not a single, solitary trick in the history of video games that is as difficult as playing through the entire game in one sitting. You're comparing the ultimate test of endurance and improvisation to resetting until you get lucky. Give me a break.
What if the game is less than 10 minutes long?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
There's not a single, solitary trick in the history of video games that is as difficult as playing through the entire game in one sitting. You're comparing the ultimate test of endurance and improvisation to resetting until you get lucky. Give me a break.
What about a segmented 1 star run for Super Mario 64? It's practically impossible to have a decent single segment run that is 1 star for Super Mario 64, which puts the tricks that are attempted in the segmented run in a different category than a single segment run.
Also, you can apply the "reset until you're lucky" strategy to a single segment run too.
Edit:
Another example: andrewg's super mario bros run is crazy. However, there has been evidence that you can do the bullet-bill flagpole skip with around 1/100 odds accuracy. Let's use the Super Mario All Stars version of the game, which allows segmenting (saving after each world/level).
I would say that a segmented run showing off the flag-pole skip, or bullet bill flagpole skip is quite a bit more impressive than a single segment run with a puny walljump.
My only inclination towards single segment runs is that I only have to download one file in order to watch the movie. If you accomplish your goal and it looks interesting, why should I care how many times you had to reset?
I think it would make sense for SDA to make it a rule to put the display settings for games at the highest quality, because it's lame not to.
Heh. Sure, it's easy for you to say that.
Personally, I don't think anything's wrong if you downgraded the graphics a bit, if that's what it takes to get the game to run smoothly. Precision is everything, after all. Also, it seems somewhat funny to people over at TASVIDEOS to complain about something as minor as graphical outcome. After all, N64 is the most recent platform (possibly handheld systems excluded - GBA was newer, correct?), yet everybody enjoys them. Maybe not the hottest issue on the thread, but debated nonetheless, so with that loophole, I've had my say.
Epilepsy-inducing flickering isn't maybe the best way to kill downtime, but I don't honestly see the huge uproar here (unless you're epileptic). I like it when there's at least something going on. Nothing is as boring as either watching the player to stare a wall or the same cut scene you've seen over and over again. And why whine here at TASvideos, of all places?
Again, this is merely my humble opinion on how things stand, and I wouldn't mind hearing some reasonings on the things I've pondered above.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Cremator wrote:
Epilepsy-inducing flickering isn't maybe the best way to kill downtime, but I don't honestly see the huge uproar here (unless you're epileptic). I like it when there's at least something going on. Nothing is as boring as either watching the player to stare a wall or the same cut scene you've seen over and over again. And why whine here at TASvideos, of all places?
Obviously coming from someone who has done no speedrunning at all. This is just pure stupidity.
Says you, and then you write no less than two utter stupidities yourself:
Anyone can do a great looking segmented speedrun. Just like anyone can TAS to a very high standard. It just takes patience.
Speedrunning, no matter in how short segments, is extremely hard. TASing with the high quality standards required currently here is extremely hard. Claiming anything else is just ludicrous.
Ok, now that I read the first post, this thread is awesome because Warp is complaining about "regular" speedruns being boring, yet he made the most boring post of all time.
Epilepsy-inducing flickering isn't maybe the best way to kill downtime, but I don't honestly see the huge uproar here (unless you're epileptic). I like it when there's at least something going on. Nothing is as boring as either watching the player to stare a wall or the same cut scene you've seen over and over again. And why whine here at TASvideos, of all places?
I much prefer being bored to being annoyed.
Of course. It's just that it's about 5 seconds of a run that's superb in most respects, and people are still complaining about it (it's been going on for a while now, you see) and there's no end to be seen. From my perspective, it seems a bit of an overkill.
Naturally, it doesn't really bother me, but I can see how it could bother others, especially when we're talking about an audience that's accustomed to the well adjusted, thoroughly thought TASes.
Nothing is as boring as either watching the player to stare a wall or the same cut scene you've seen over and over again.
The average speedrun viewer (such as myself) has not seen the cutscenes over and over. When I watched the HL:OF speedrun I had seen the cutscenes exactly once: When I played the game. Seeing them again would have been much nicer than that awful flickering.
And why whine here at TASvideos, of all places?
At least it's more on topic than most of the other threads in this group.
If I want maximum entertainment, that's what TASes are for. With speedruns, speed and skill provide for the entertainment. I'd imagine that after the 150th attempt of the same segment, the runner doesn't feel like infinite walljumping during the scripted wait sequences anymore, and I don't blame him/her.
Well, you can go and fuck yourself.
Damn, that one's going to hurt in the morning.
Anyone can do a great looking segmented speedrun. Just like anyone can TAS to a very high standard. It just takes patience.
Speedrunning, no matter in how short segments, is extremely hard. TASing with the high quality standards required currently here is extremely hard. Claiming anything else is just ludicrous.
Care to explain where there's a contradiction?
Also... Go smoke some bud or something, dude. Chill out =|
Anyone can do a great looking segmented speedrun. Just like anyone can TAS to a very high standard. It just takes patience.
Speedrunning, no matter in how short segments, is extremely hard. TASing with the high quality standards required currently here is extremely hard. Claiming anything else is just ludicrous.
Care to explain where there's a contradiction?
He wrote as if making a segmented speedrun required almost no skill to speak of. "Anyone can do a great looking segmented speedrun". I completely disagree with this. Even if you can make one level at a time, it still requires awesome skills to make a great-looking speedrun. Just look at the QdQ speedruns and tell me "anyone" can do those, even if they do it one level at a time. I seriously doubt it. It requires a *lot* of practice, ie. skill.
Saying that making a great-looking segmented speedrun is easy is exactly as flawed as saying that making a high-quality TAS is easy. Which is exactly what he said immediately after that.
Also... Go smoke some bud or something, dude. Chill out =|
The attitude of some people just pisses me off. (I'm talking about Enhasa's stupid posts.) May as well give them all the money's worth of stupidness if that's what they are looking for.
I would say that a segmented run showing off the flag-pole skip, or bullet bill flagpole skip is quite a bit more impressive than a single segment run with a puny walljump.
A 3 segment run of smb would take me maybe 1-3 days and it would be perfect. A SS run perfectly through every level with a walljump (without the flagpole glitch) took months.
I did the bullet bill glitch in abut 10 attempts (ending with 337).
I don't understand why you think a segmented run would be more impressive as it is very easy to do.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
