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Posted: 4/5/2008 10:27 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
The reason it hasn't happened yet is that no-one's done it yet. The reason is always the same, always.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 4/5/2008 10:47 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I see, you have no idea for any improvements, yet believe there are still any. I can understand that. Until you convince yourself in every single room, you just won't be sure about it. I redid that part 3 times myself over more than 2 years, doing it fully optimized in the final attempt except a few missed subpixel optimizations, which Taco and Kriole fixed by now. There is nothing more left after that because you just hit the limit at one point, as unbelieveable as it may sound at first.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 4/7/2008 12:32 AM
(Edited: 4/7/2008 1:08 AM)
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Taco
Former player
Joined: 6/28/2007
Posts: 67
Saturn, please stop saying that everything to Torizo is perfect. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/184967545/zebes%20improvement.smv Another frame is gained in that smv by not turning around before entering the OTES (the first visit), which allows me to jump one frame earlier. Of course this messes with the elevator, so I shoot in the OMBR to add lag to the door transition (real-time is what affects the elevators, not in-game time). I'm also sure that there are still more frames to be gained. Btw, here's a good timesaver in Red Brinstar: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1956540303/fall.smv (EDIT: don't download this smv, Hero posted a better one)
Posted: 4/7/2008 12:33 AM
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mmbossman
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
GBx TAS of 2008
Saturn, I'm curious how you're so confident about everything being subpixel perfect when you don't use any sort of RAM watcher?
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Posted: 4/7/2008 12:49 AM
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DK64_MASTER
Joined: 10/24/2005
Posts: 1080
Location: San Jose
Taco wrote:
Saturn, please stop saying that everything to Torizo is perfect. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/184967545/zebes%20improvement.smv Another frame is gained in that smv by not turning around before entering the OTES (the first visit), which allows me to jump one frame earlier. Of course this messes with the elevator, so I shoot in the OMBR to add lag to the door transition (real-time is what affects the elevators, not in-game time). I'm also sure that there are still more frames to be gained. Btw, here's a good timesaver in Red Brinstar: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1956540303/fall.smv
Tacowned.
<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~
Posted: 4/7/2008 1:03 AM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Taco, that red brinstar is about the same speed as this, except this one doesn't lose a missile or take damage. I am pretty sure you knew about this before anyway. What is the benefit of using the other method?
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 4/7/2008 7:14 AM
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Kriole
Experienced player (869)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
Lucky TAS of 2012 GBA TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2010 GBx TAS of 2009
hero of the day wrote:
Taco, that red brinstar is about the same speed as this, except this one doesn't lose a missile or take damage. I am pretty sure you knew about this before anyway. What is the benefit of using the other method?
You shot the wyrm with a super missile, doubt that was planned though. Think you dont have to kill the wyrm to allow the trick to work. IIRC, Taco said both were equally fast.
Posted: 4/7/2008 11:54 AM
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Tonski
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
Hahaha this owned Saturn again. Also, made moozooh's chances of finding more improvements even smaller. Whatever, all the smvs powerrangers and Hero posted are nice, although I like the not-damage taking fall better. Nice finds. Good job guys. :)
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Posted: 4/7/2008 12:46 PM
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Oddity
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 178
Yes, 1 frame! Time to go out and get crunk.
<^>v AB X LR s
Posted: 4/7/2008 2:21 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
1 frame uhh crazy damn restart all runs :> i think that attitude on super metroid tases here is what keeps people away from doing runs(me too) since iam here i never saw a game where people did care so much for every single little itty bitty frame :) .. i mean somehow its cool but somehow it stops the progress or slows it really down :/
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 4/7/2008 2:25 PM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
In Saturn's defense, he was right. Everything IS perfect (tm) up until Torizo, except for that timesaver he didn't consider, and any other timesavers he didn't consider.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 4/7/2008 3:07 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
evlichen wrote:
1 frame uhh crazy damn restart all runs :> i think that attitude on super metroid tases here is what keeps people away from doing runs(me too) since iam here i never saw a game where people did care so much for every single little itty bitty frame :) .. i mean somehow its cool but somehow it stops the progress or slows it really down :/
Yeah that's why hero and I just try to make progress instead of redoing minutes of work for a frame or two (though admittedly we spent like a week at a series of rooms and remade everything over and over again to save a couple of frames) At this point I know about like 10 or so frames of improvement between the start and the end of kraid. Also weird save taco, very unexpected results from just not turning around. Also get to the diagonal room already!! I wanna see what you can do there :)
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 4/7/2008 4:48 PM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
evilchen wrote:
since iam here i never saw a game where people did care so much for every single little itty bitty frame :)
I'm working on such a run. I've restarted 8 times, and I think one or two restarts ended up in less than 20 frames saved within 10 minutes of gameplay. More examples: SMB SMB3 SMB2 Donkey Kong Donkey Kong Jr SMW Those are just a few. They are very optimal, potentially frame perfect due to many people working competitively, same like Super Metroid. But I will acknowledge SM as being the most complex out of all of those, with the highest degree so far of frame hunting. Also, Saturn, this is the billionth time where you said something was unimproveable, and someone proved you wrong. Can we maybe use this interesting talent of yours productively for something else? Start claiming things like, "Nitsuja's S+K 3 TAS will never be finished in less than a month with more than 2 minutes saved", or "Megaman 1 will never go sub 14 minutes", etc. You get my drift, we could totally change the way people respect you if you make such claims to other games, and then get proved wrong. Fabian: I kinda see what you're getting at, something is proven perfect until proven otherwise (especially handy when rating published movies), but the way he phrased it it was "this is never going to be improved, ever."
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 4/7/2008 4:48 PM
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Kriole
Experienced player (869)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
Lucky TAS of 2012 GBA TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2010 GBx TAS of 2009
Cpadolf wrote:
Also weird save taco, very unexpected results from just not turning around. Also get to the diagonal room already!! I wanna see what you can do there :)
Already finished with the diagonal room, but due to a recent discovery we may have to redo it once again.
Posted: 4/7/2008 4:52 PM
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mmbossman
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
GBx TAS of 2008
Fabian's statement --> o Comicalflop's head --> \o/ Judges?.......... Judges rule that Fabian's statement went way over Comicalflops head.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Posted: 4/7/2008 4:55 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Kriole wrote:
Already finished with the diagonal room, but due to a recent discovery we may have to redo it once again.
Have you managed to improve upon Cpadolf's version?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 4/7/2008 5:15 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
comical: i know that more of those exist but i dont know them or i didnt follow them as much as this here
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 4/7/2008 5:16 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
moozooh wrote:
Have you managed to improve upon Cpadolf's version?
They most certainly must have since I did so myself in the 100% run :) Only by 2 frames though, and strictly from optimization, no new stuff.
Kriole wrote:
Already finished with the diagonal room, but due to a recent discovery we may have to redo it once again.
What discovery? I'm very interested in this becuase of all the time I have put into this room.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 4/7/2008 5:19 PM
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Kriole
Experienced player (869)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
Lucky TAS of 2012 GBA TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2010 GBx TAS of 2009
moozooh wrote:
Have you managed to improve upon Cpadolf's version?
We improved it by 3 frames, but the new discovery might save another 2-5 frames.
Cpadolf wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Already finished with the diagonal room, but due to a recent discovery we may have to redo it once again.
What discovery? I'm very interested in this becuase of all the time I have put into this room.
It's no real discovery, just something in the environment which can be abused to shoot the first geemer without skipping so many armpump.
Posted: 4/7/2008 5:34 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
Kriole wrote:
It's no real discovery, just something in the environment which can be abused to shoot the first geemer without skipping so many armpump.
Yeah I was trying to do that for a long time, for example by slowing down so that the shot would move slower, didn't work though, if it did optimally I think it would save 5 or 6 frames. Also by environmental are you talking about the fact that skipping armpumps at different places will give you different subpixel positions (a.i because of the slope your positions changes differently depending on where you are) or is it something else? Also damn you for saving 1 more frame than me :P
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 4/8/2008 6:16 AM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Has anyone else ever noticed the variable jump heights when combined with speed booster? Seems like a stupid quirk in the game's programming. Anyone have an explanation for this? Run and jump Run for 1 frame longer, then jump Notice how the first jump is considerably higher.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 4/8/2008 6:30 AM
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Kriole
Experienced player (869)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
Lucky TAS of 2012 GBA TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2010 GBx TAS of 2009
hero of the day wrote:
Seems like a stupid quirk in the game's programming. Anyone have an explanation for this?
I think it's because they want to limit the height of a jump at full speed, so that it doesn't become wtfdood-high when you reach 7.0. Running for 1 frame and jumping without high-jump is so rediculously low =p.
Posted: 4/8/2008 8:17 AM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
After you have speedbooster and you are running each step increments your Y speed at a jump by some ammount (8192 subpixels or something like that) though the first time you reach 6.65535+ the first time it resets to 6.0 (dunno if it does this again with with even higher speeds) this should be as kriole say to make the jump at 7.0 px speed not be completely ridiculous.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 4/8/2008 8:28 AM
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P.JBoy
Any
Editor
Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
The game gets your horizontal speed, shifts right by 1 and adds it to 4 and makes that your vertical speed, it then gets your horizontal sub-speed and adds E000 and makes that your vertical sub-speed. With hi-jump, the game gets your horizontal speed, shifts right by 1 and adds it to 6 and makes that your vertical speed, it then gets your horizontal sub-speed and makes that your vertical sub-speed. Since the peak horizontal speed is 7.0000, the highest jump speed you can attain is 9.F000 which is 1 frame before maximum horizontal speed. This is a complete list of vertical speeds from horizontal speeds 
xspeed		yspeed w/hi	yspeed w/o hi
0.0000		6.0000		4.E000
0.1000		6.1000		4.F000
0.2000		6.2000		4.0000
0.3000		6.3000		4.1000
0.4000		6.4000		4.2000
0.5000		6.5000		4.3000
0.6000		6.6000		4.4000
0.7000		6.7000		4.5000
0.8000		6.8000		4.6000
0.9000		6.9000		4.7000
0.A000		6.A000		4.8000
0.B000		6.B000		4.9000
0.C000		6.C000		4.A000
0.D000		6.D000		4.B000
0.E000		6.E000		4.C000
0.F000		6.F000		4.D000

1.0000		6.0000		4.E000
1.1000		6.1000		4.F000
1.2000		6.2000		4.0000
1.3000		6.3000		4.1000
1.4000		6.4000		4.2000
1.5000		6.5000		4.3000
1.6000		6.6000		4.4000
1.7000		6.7000		4.5000
1.8000		6.8000		4.6000
1.9000		6.9000		4.7000
1.A000		6.A000		4.8000
1.B000		6.B000		4.9000
1.C000		6.C000		4.A000
1.D000		6.D000		4.B000
1.E000		6.E000		4.C000
1.F000		6.F000		4.D000

2.0000		7.0000		5.E000
2.1000		7.1000		5.F000
2.2000		7.2000		5.0000
2.3000		7.3000		5.1000
2.4000		7.4000		5.2000
2.5000		7.5000		5.3000
2.6000		7.6000		5.4000
2.7000		7.7000		5.5000
2.8000		7.8000		5.6000
2.9000		7.9000		5.7000
2.A000		7.A000		5.8000
2.B000		7.B000		5.9000
2.C000		7.C000		5.A000
2.D000		7.D000		5.B000
2.E000		7.E000		5.C000
2.F000		7.F000		5.D000

3.0000		7.0000		5.E000
3.1000		7.1000		5.F000
3.2000		7.2000		5.0000
3.3000		7.3000		5.1000
3.4000		7.4000		5.2000
3.5000		7.5000		5.3000
3.6000		7.6000		5.4000
3.7000		7.7000		5.5000
3.8000		7.8000		5.6000
3.9000		7.9000		5.7000
3.A000		7.A000		5.8000
3.B000		7.B000		5.9000
3.C000		7.C000		5.A000
3.D000		7.D000		5.B000
3.E000		7.E000		5.C000
3.F000		7.F000		5.D000

4.0000		8.0000		6.E000
4.1000		8.1000		6.F000
4.2000		8.2000		6.0000
4.3000		8.3000		6.1000
4.4000		8.4000		6.2000
4.5000		8.5000		6.3000
4.6000		8.6000		6.4000
4.7000		8.7000		6.5000
4.8000		8.8000		6.6000
4.9000		8.9000		6.7000
4.A000		8.A000		6.8000
4.B000		8.B000		6.9000
4.C000		8.C000		6.A000
4.D000		8.D000		6.B000
4.E000		8.E000		6.C000
4.F000		8.F000		6.D000

5.0000		8.0000		6.E000
5.1000		8.1000		6.F000
5.2000		8.2000		6.0000
5.3000		8.3000		6.1000
5.4000		8.4000		6.2000
5.5000		8.5000		6.3000
5.6000		8.6000		6.4000
5.7000		8.7000		6.5000
5.8000		8.8000		6.6000
5.9000		8.9000		6.7000
5.A000		8.A000		6.8000
5.B000		8.B000		6.9000
5.C000		8.C000		6.A000
5.D000		8.D000		6.B000
5.E000		8.E000		6.C000
5.F000		8.F000		6.D000

6.0000		9.0000		7.E000
6.1000		9.1000		7.F000
6.2000		9.2000		7.0000
6.3000		9.3000		7.1000
6.4000		9.4000		7.2000
6.5000		9.5000		7.3000
6.6000		9.6000		7.4000
6.7000		9.7000		7.5000
6.8000		9.8000		7.6000
6.9000		9.9000		7.7000
6.A000		9.A000		7.8000
6.B000		9.B000		7.9000
6.C000		9.C000		7.A000
6.D000		9.D000		7.B000
6.E000		9.E000		7.C000
6.F000		9.F000		7.D000

7.0000		9.0000		7.E000
Posted: 4/8/2008 8:56 AM
Quote
Cpadolf
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
Cool, I actually didn't know that you jumped higher at 6.04096-6.61440 speed compared to at 7.0 speed. That might get helpful sometime.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
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