More than just a few. You've already seen JRB, which is completely dominated by them.
Obviously not every star will feature BLJs, but the run will be very BLJ heavy.
if you read my post:
except for more lobby BLJ's to skip walking around in the castle, and BLJ's on the cannon slope at the start of JRB, only used to skip a lot of swimming, nothing has changed.
bkDJ: I'm against it because there isn't even a decent (up to date) 120 star run up, and people are wasting time discussing a BLJ-less run, when BLJ's aren't dominating to get stars at all; they only skip boring parts like swimming and walking around in the castle.
There is no need for a BLJ-less run, because BLJ's don't skip any fun parts, they only skip boring parts. If people actually still want a BLJ-less run, and someone's actually willing to make one, then cool, but for now, I think we should worry more about the 0 and 120 star runs in progress.
zOMG, you really can't know what the difference between the two runs is going to be until we see at least one of them completed. I'm not sure why you're so set against people making another run, but you're being very unpleasant. If you don't want the 70-star run to be published, you can vote against it when it's submitted; beyond that, I'm not sure if you are contributing anything to the discussion here.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
z0MG wrote:
mr_roberts_z wrote:
More than just a few. You've already seen JRB, which is completely dominated by them.
Obviously not every star will feature BLJs, but the run will be very BLJ heavy.
if you read my post:
words words words
If you actually read what mr_roberts_z wrote, he explicitly said that there will be more than just a few stars to use the BLJ. Somehow you keep interpreting that as "only the lobby and JRB".
I don't know why zOMG is so against a blj-less any% run (THAT being the condition, 70 stars being the result)... I've said it before, but I think it would be a great addition to the site.
I like the idea of a BLJless run, in addition to the fastest completion (which is now 0 star) and 100% completion (120 stars, plus bowser star, perhaps plus TASvideos star). BLJ's change the star strats in many cases. Anyone who can't see that isn't watching. One thing to consider first though:
Is it possible to get through star doors using the recently discovered wall-kicking speed up tricks? The language for what is essentially "no star door skips" needs to be somewhat tight.
Joined: 6/5/2006
Posts: 188
Location: Malmö, Sweden
I'd just like to insert that a BLJ-less run would also involve route planning, something virtually non-existent in both the 0star and 120star runs. Which by default adds suspense over which stars are gotten, which at least to me is entertaining. Unless of course you read and memorized the star list I believe mr-roberts_z posted a while back.
Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?
More than just a few. You've already seen JRB, which is completely dominated by them.
Obviously not every star will feature BLJs, but the run will be very BLJ heavy.
if you read my post:
words words words
If you actually read what mr_roberts_z wrote, he explicitly said that there will be more than just a few stars to use the BLJ. Somehow you keep interpreting that as "only the lobby and JRB".
i'm not siding with Zomg, but honestly, name a star made less entertaining by the use of a blj. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you can piece together what i mean without me saying it.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
mapler90210 wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
z0MG wrote:
mr_roberts_z wrote:
More than just a few. You've already seen JRB, which is completely dominated by them.
Obviously not every star will feature BLJs, but the run will be very BLJ heavy.
if you read my post:
words words words
If you actually read what mr_roberts_z wrote, he explicitly said that there will be more than just a few stars to use the BLJ. Somehow you keep interpreting that as "only the lobby and JRB".
i'm not siding with Zomg, but honestly, name a star made less entertaining by the use of a blj. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you can piece together what i mean without me saying it.
My point isn't that a BLJ isn't entertaining. It is. However, there's only so many times I can watch Mario go cruising up the mountain in the first level before it gets old. The first time I saw it, I almost crapped myself, the 100th time I saw it, I started to wonder what other interesting routes could be chosen. The whole idea that I'm trying to convey is that there exists room to do things differently that may also be entertaining if done right, not that one way is more entertaining than another.
Is it possible to get through star doors using the recently discovered wall-kicking speed up tricks? The language for what is essentially "no star door skips" needs to be somewhat tight.
I believe that none of the (8, 30, 50) star doors are near two walls that could possibly allow for the high speed required, which still leaves MIPS and BLJs as the only way to skip through them. And for the 70-star one, you wouldn't be able to wall-kick off the stairs and slanted ceiling to get to BitS either.
it doesn't go -that- fast. getting through doors with wall kicking takes a lot of time to set up, and only works in some places, if any at all.
You missed the point. It doesn't matter how long it takes to set up. His point was that if it was possible at all, "no BLJ any%" wouldn't be a good enough (arbitrary lol) justifier for a 70-star run, since if wall-kick speed buildup is possible at all, "no-BLJ any%" could be 0, 1, 16, or 50 stars. (Not that there's really anything wrong with those numbers. A 50-star run could be just as entertaining.)
Get it?
Not to change the subject or anything but I found the key thing fascinating. It's worth noting that in the past I used the 0 star run up till where bljs are used to launch downstairs to the basement door for entry directly out of BitDW. By modifying the path slightly I made mario travel through the doors into the black area behind, about face, fly back through, up, into the lobby, up the stairs, and stopped him in front of the 2nd key door.
My hopes were that simply being near the basement door and possessing the first key would be enough to transport the game into a status where a generic "key_door" got permission to open for the first time. I could then manipulate mario to actually stop in front of the other door and hopefully trick the game into keeping its "why-yes-you-may-open-that-door" status. Unfortunately this did not work.
I'm still not entirely convinced that a door can't be tricked into unlocking. This is probably tested easier and faster by getting 1 star and then trying to use WF as a trigger to get the CCM door open. If you think about it, all the star doors have identical properties to the key doors, with the only exception being they don't lead to another map... there's an initial locked state and a particular set of requirements, probably stored in the door itself as class variables, which is required to make the door open for the first time... after which it behaves normally.
This tells me that a) all doors are seperate instances with unique criteria to initially unlock
b) once a door is open it permanently assumes an unlocked status
It appears we're going to have to try some sort of override or memory leak to either generate the key we want, or make it so BitDW gives us key 2. The other alternative is to find a way to trick star doors, perhaps using other, already-qualified star doors, into opening. we do that and we have a no keys run. if you can trick the CCM door, you can trick the upstairs one too.
there's an initial locked state and a particular set of requirements, probably stored in the door itself as class variables, which is required to make the door open for the first time... after which it behaves normally.
Do we know this for a fact? Maybe it checks every time. Has anyone ever opened a star-limited door and then GS'ed their stars away and tried opening it again? And then reach the requirements again to see if it does the star animation? Actually I'm not sure how any of my ramblings pertains to the tas but if nothing else, it is an interesting look into the programming of the doors. As for your idea... far-fetched but thinking outside the box is cool too :D
For both star and key doors the game will not let you through unless you meet the requirements to unlock the door, even if the door is actually unlocked.
If you can trick a door into thinking it's another door surely you could trick a load point (e.g. painting) into thinking it leads to a different level?
Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 448
Location: Calgary, Alberta
You dont have to just try to trick the door. Couldn't you do the same thing with location addresses for levels as well? Then, you exit (dying or getting star) and presto!
Renting this space for rent.
Trying to fix image on this site. Please cut slack.
As of April 6th, 2012:
After a long absence, here we go again?
It appears we're going to have to try some sort of override or memory leak to either generate the key we want, or make it so BitDW gives us key 2. The other alternative is to find a way to trick star doors, perhaps using other, already-qualified star doors, into opening. we do that and we have a no keys run. if you can trick the CCM door, you can trick the upstairs one too.
