Post by Weatherton

Posted: 7/1/2008 12:55 AM
(Edited: 7/1/2008 2:21 AM)

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Comicalflop

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If a sub optimal run was what this game "needed", then Weatherton's run would have been published. It seems that everyone has completely forgotten that test runs exist for every single cup, except for Star cup. If you have MK64 cravings, and desire to see theoretical routes and lack of inhuman precision, check those out, it's why Weatherton made them in the first place. So what if it takes me "forever" to finish the run? Isn't perfection what we're trying to achieve? My opinions about what constitutes perfection, and the methods that I use to achieve it (even if it means redoing constantly) are what they are, and they help me create very optimal and entertaining movies. Art cannot be rushed. Mario Kart happens to be immensely popular, is very complicated, and has many theoretical new tricks and glitches that have never been seen before. For Mischief Makers, yes I restarted 9 times but that's because for that game I was constantly finding new tricks and reaching new levels of precision. For Mario Kart 64, a sub optimal run is unacceptable because the hundreds of pro players have achieved a level of human played precision that a TAS can only beat by 0.20" of a second. I really wonder why my unwillingness to accept imperfection is being treated as a hindrance. The final date of completion of a movie should not matter; the end result should be. As much as you all want to badly see a run completed ASAP just to see one, the truth of the matter is that in order to make this game be the best that it can be, you must devote a lot of time and effort into it. Did you know that Michael Fried, who can make Time Trial TAS videos really quick and optimal, refuses to work on the MK64 run that would do justice to the game because he knows it will take too long and MUST have a lot of effort devoted to it? One of the many goals of having adelikat joining the crew was in giving me constant motivation boosts. I'm sad to see you not only doubting my motivation and ability to get it completed in what YOU consider a reasonable time, but that adelikat won't be able to make me productive. Long story short: Patience pays off. Trust me, it has been proven on this site many times over from movies that took a long time to complete, but the end result was worth the wait. "Apologize section" I step down from the high horse and apologize in advance for these reasons: -mmbossman and everyone else: I realize everyone has been waiting since Feburary 2007 when I started,and I'm sorry that as a person I fail to be on top of my game when it comes to personal life matters, and that I have ADD and do get easily distracted. -I am mostly sorry for being an asshole about this subject because I am constantly, nonstop getting harassed about this run. I have actually had, no joke, nightmares about making no progress on it. I am bugged all the time on IRC, on AIM, and by many members at mariokart64.com about when the next stage will be done. If I'm not getting bugged about "when is Mischief Makers being done", I am getting bugged about when this will get done. Part of the reason I started MM is that I could say I spent ~1 year solid on a project, and prove to myself that I can make a game like MK64 be the best that it can be. It is very highly stressful; I don't think anyone appreciated at all what I went through in the making of Luigi Raceway (twice, and possibly a third time) and Moo Moo Farm, and the lack of appreciation made me selfish sometimes.

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Posted: 7/1/2008 1:42 AM

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mmbossman

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Comicalflop wrote:

If a sub optimal run was what this game "needed", then Weatherton's run would have been published.

If his run had finished the other 12 tracks, I do think it would have been published, because it would have been entertaining. Using everyone's favorite example of Super Metroid, hero of the day's most recent any% was published to great fanfare, despite having known techniques faster for at least the first segment. MK64 is a very entertaining game, and it is likely that such entertainment value would likely lead to some forgiveness of imperfections.

Comicalflop wrote:

Isn't perfection what we're trying to achieve?

We (and I use the term in a broad, sweeping generalization) are here to make entertaining movies, generally with speed as the primary objective, for others to watch. Many people are just here to watch entertaining movies. I commend your pursuit of perfection, but perfection doesn't count for much if the end product never reaches actuality. Nothing is ever perfect the first time around, and thinking that you'll be able to find every little thing the game has to offer, within a reasonable time-frame (<2 years), simply isn't realistic. Producing a movie that is great (ie 95% perfect) vs. truly incredible (ie 99% perfect) isn't going to be visible to many of the people the movie is made for. If you're simply trying to impress the "pros", that's one thing, but as you've said, there are single track records for that. As for the .20" difference between real playing and TASing, that's still beating the world record, as far as I can tell. If real people can do it, beating it by a little bit using TAS strategies shouldn't be a big deal.

Comicalflop wrote:

I really wonder why my unwillingness to accept imperfection is being treated as a hindrance. The final date of completion of a movie should not matter; the end result should be.[/quore] I see it as a hindrance because of the lack of end product (and also the repeated mentality that it's always 'next on the list'). A long term goal of completing a project needs to show short term improvements and accomplishments, instead of empty promises. If you really are going to work on it, then work on it. If you're not, no hard feelings. But stop saying that you'll get around to it eventually, because that discourages others from trying.
Comicalflop wrote:
Did you know that Michael Fried, who can make Time Trial TAS videos really quick and optimal, refuses to work on the MK64 run that would do justice to the game because he knows it will take too long and MUST have a lot of effort devoted to it?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Yes, it's a hard game to work on. No one is saying it's easy. But this statement either comes off as you saying you're better than Fried because he's too lazy to do it, or that it's such a hard game that since one of the best unassisted runners won't do it, no one else should. Perhaps I'm misinterpretting.
Comicalflop wrote:
One of the many goals of having adelikat joining the crew was in giving me constant motivation boosts. I'm sad to see you not only doubting my motivation and ability to get it completed in what YOU consider a reasonable time, but that adelikat won't be able to make me productive.
And I'm sad that you consider adelikat as just someone to keep poking you in the ass with a stick. We make these movies because we want to, not because we have to. If you don't have fun making it, then don't. Like I said, there won't be any hard feelings (at least not from me). But if TASing this game is a chore to you, and you dread having to do it (I'm getting that feeling), then don't. Yeah, some people will be sad/angry/suicidal (kidding) about it, but this is the internet. They'll get over it. Or, if they're really interested, they'll make a run themselves.

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Posted: 7/1/2008 1:55 AM

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adelikat

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mmbossman wrote:

Comicalflop wrote:
One of the many goals of having adelikat joining the crew was in giving me constant motivation boosts. I'm sad to see you not only doubting my motivation and ability to get it completed in what YOU consider a reasonable time, but that adelikat won't be able to make me productive.
And I'm sad that you consider adelikat as just someone to keep poking you in the ass with a stick. We make these movies because we want to, not because we have to. If you don't have fun making it, then don't. Like I said, there won't be any hard feelings (at least not from me). But if TASing this game is a chore to you, and you dread having to do it (I'm getting that feeling), then don't. Yeah, some people will be sad/angry/suicidal (kidding) about it, but this is the internet. They'll get over it. Or, if they're really interested, they'll make a run themselves.

Abandoning it may be drastic but at the point that it is that much of a chore, take some time off. In the meantime, Comicalflop don't 1) Claim ownership of the game. Anyone can work on any game, you don't own the rights to it 2) Take offense to others working on it. Why should they wait for years for you possibly doing your run, when they could try to do it themselves? 3) Belittling others work. Pointing out possible improvements is one thing. But you are doing it with this "see, you just don't have the skill to do it perfect" attitude, and that is really crappy. Personally, I like to see others such as xeno making attempts at this game. I'd be willing to help (time permitting) in any way I can.

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Posted: 7/1/2008 12:36 PM

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Bootman

Joined: 7/19/2006
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Location: San Francisco

Weatherton wrote:

Suicide is seriously not a joke and it should never be treated as such.

Never is such a strong word. I'll grant that intentional suicide is not a matter to be taken lightly. Accidental suicide such as auto-erotic asphyxiation can be very amusing depending on what is found in the DVD player by the authorities.

Posted: 7/1/2008 2:28 PM

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mapler90210

Joined: 3/22/2008
Posts: 84

Bootman wrote:

Weatherton wrote:
Suicide is seriously not a joke and it should never be treated as such.
Never is such a strong word. I'll grant that intentional suicide is not a matter to be taken lightly. Accidental suicide such as auto-erotic asphyxiation can be very amusing depending on what is found in the DVD player by the authorities.

there's no such thing as unintentional suicide. suicide is the act of intentionally taking one's own life. if it's unintentional, it's just an accidental death (i say "just," but it's still as devastating and equally not to be joked about).

Posted: 7/1/2008 3:51 PM

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Twelvepack

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mapler90210 wrote:

(i say "just," but it's still as devastating and equally not to be joked about).

Unless the DVD found by the authorities features something as hilarious as horse porn... (srsly, for your sanity, don't google that one)

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Posted: 7/1/2008 10:56 PM

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mmbossman

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Weatherton wrote:

mmbossman wrote:
Yeah, some people will be sad/angry/suicidal (kidding) about it, but this is the internet.
mmbossman, I appreciate the rest of your post, but please do not make a joke of suicide. If you read on near the beginning of this thread, you will see that a dear friend of mine (who was my orginal TASing partner, prior to Mupen's existance) killed himself. Suicide is seriously not a joke and it should never be treated as such.

My apologies Weatherton, I had forgotten about that, and I'm sorry it offended you. I was simply making a statement about the sometimes absurd levels of obsession some people can form for something as simple as a video game.

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Posted: 7/4/2008 11:34 AM

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Spider-Waffle

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I'm all about putting a lot of effort into making great speedruns/TAS, and think most people don't do a very job on their speedruns/TAS. However, I do like to see certain TASes even if they aren't that perfect. MK64 is one where I would watch pretty much no matter how unperfect it was, as long as it made use of all the best shortcuts, and beat all human records. It would be very cool just have a TAS like that out and done right now to watch. Then if someone wants to make a very perfect TAS after that I salute them. What isn't so great is when there's no full run to watch and one is being worked on but enroute to take >3 years and looking likely that the author will call it quits in the middle of it.

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Posted: 7/4/2008 7:24 PM

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Comicalflop

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Spider-Waffle wrote:

What isn't so great is when there's no full run to watch and one is being worked on but enroute to take >3 years and looking likely that the author will call it quits in the middle of it.

Who's saying anything about middle? All this crap about wetting pants over a poor quality run just to satisfy impatience makes me consider not doing the run at all. I mean, the impatience problem could be solved by me releasing numerous WIPs (which I originally wasn't going to do, but I'm open to changing that pedagogue), but once again you're forgetting there are test runs made by Weatherton, demonstrating the most likely TAS route as well as having a good amount of optimization because Weatherton knows what he's doing. Please stop asking for a full unoptimized run and just watch those. Why make a test quality run when a test run actually exists? Ok, new topic. Way back in February I was working on a new method for doing the 1st lap in Luigi Raceway. Here it is. I can't quite seem to find a way to build up enough speed to mylestyle over the sandy hill; however, if I held AB and kept speed brake spinning, I may be able to maintain more momentum after landing and build enough speed to get over the gray wall.

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Posted: 7/7/2008 8:15 AM

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xenos

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Comicalflop wrote:

Ok, new topic. Way back in February I was working on a new method for doing the 1st lap in Luigi Raceway. Here it is. I can't quite seem to find a way to build up enough speed to mylestyle over the sandy hill; however, if I held AB and kept speed brake spinning, I may be able to maintain more momentum after landing and build enough speed to get over the gray wall.

You don't need that much speed to do the mylestyle. I made a short movie that completes the first lap in 6.76 which can be found here. Time is wasted at the start because I was testing the idea of doing the lap 3 trick on lap 1 (which was very difficult). Edit: Although it doesn't really matter because you have to wait for Wario on lap 3 anyway.

Posted: 7/7/2008 11:00 AM

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mmbossman

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xenos wrote:

Comicalflop wrote:
Ok, new topic. Way back in February I was working on a new method for doing the 1st lap in Luigi Raceway. Here it is. I can't quite seem to find a way to build up enough speed to mylestyle over the sandy hill; however, if I held AB and kept speed brake spinning, I may be able to maintain more momentum after landing and build enough speed to get over the gray wall.
You don't need that much speed to do the mylestyle. I made a short movie that completes the first lap in 6.76 which can be found here. Time is wasted at the start because I was testing the idea of doing the lap 3 trick on lap 1 (which was very difficult). Edit: Although it doesn't really matter because you have to wait for Wario on lap 3 anyway.

Frame ruled by the AI :(. I know it's been talked about before, but is there any way to manipulate any of the other characters to show up earlier?

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Posted: 7/7/2008 10:42 PM

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Comicalflop

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6.76"should be beatable. I was almost over the gray wall, highly unoptimized at 5.33". I might want to toy around with your .m64 and see if I can shave off time. The main theoretical way to make Wario appear sooner is to drive faster; but I don't think anyone has made calculations if the CPU's speed algorithm is based on calculating the distance between you and the CPU, and adding speed to compensate, or an if/and statement that if you're ahead, then CPU gains a set amount of speed. Adelikat told me a while ago that it should be possible to get the speed address for the CPU cars; in these cases I think it'd be a wonderful thing to have. I know you can manipulate the CPUs; for instance, you can make them use a lightning or not. I assume you can control their speed too, you just need to have the right address to watch it. One thing to consider which always made me hesitant about redoing Luigi Raceway is, even though no matter what Wario pulls into the lead when you start the race off with any type of shortcut (I have tested this to always happen with my .m64) there is no absolute guarantee that by your 3rd lap Wario is still in first place alone, and that Yoshi is far enough behind that when you jump over, he's in the perfect place to give a speed bump.

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Posted: 7/7/2008 10:51 PM
(Edited: 7/8/2008 3:18 PM)

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Mitjitsu

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All sounds very complicated, can't wait to see the final result :-)

Posted: 7/7/2008 11:25 PM

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Weatherton

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As far as manipulating CPU players goes, it has seemed to be quite random for me so far in my test runs. Small changes late in the game seem to make somewhat large, fairly irrational differences. I should note that I tried several different timings on LR when I was first attempting the Wario jump and none of them significantly changes the timing for Wario to show up. Perhaps there are key checkpoints. Now, regarding LR, lap 2 can be completed faster using a Blue Shell (from the balloon, 180, self hit to tunnel). The third lap could be done in the same way if Wario is too far behind. The thing is, the current product is so much more entertaining than that potential result.

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Posted: 7/9/2008 10:55 PM

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XkyRauh

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Does the AI character who boosts ahead (in this case, Wario) change depending on who the player controlled character is? I really enjoy reading the discussion of these secrets and statistics. :) Thanks for making them public, when you can.

Posted: 7/10/2008 2:16 AM

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Weatherton

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I'm glad you enjoy the discussion. Usually, my experience has not been teleportation of CPUs. The order does not typically change drastically and appears to be due to CPUs interacting with one another. My feeling is that CPUs have a set maximum catchup speed and that, beyond that, you have to rely item manipulations. I actually have a really good savestate on Bowser Castle where I can make Bowser fall from first to fourth by just shifting around a bit as I sit waiting for them to come. I think it was from Bowser getting bumped into a thwomp. Not very conclusive discussion, I know, but I'm sure I'll test it more in-depth in the future. For the test runs, it has not been all that important yet.

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Posted: 7/10/2008 9:37 AM

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xenos

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I found a somewhat new strategy on LR that is faster than the current one though I wouldn't be surprised if someone had already thought of this given how obvious it is. Using red shells from the tunnel, you can launch yourself over the wall in much the same way that blue shells do. The end result is, as Weatherton predicted, much less entertaining than the current run which is a bit of a shame given how much I enjoyed the previous. I made a test run that finishes in 35.31.

Posted: 7/10/2008 9:43 PM

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Comicalflop

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Bye bye Massive Wario Jump and Yoshi Bump. You will be sadly missed. Wowzie, looks my faster starting strat loses out from not getting item box in the tunnel. So, it looks like what adelikat had will work (he obsoleted my original strat slightly with an incomplete .m64 he sent me) I'll take that .m64 and play with it some; if you wish Xenos, I can send you the .m64 as well. By the way Xenos, good test run. I'm surprised Weatherton, Fried and I missed that. I guess in my testing of green and red shells, I wasn't successfully getting over the wall with reds, so deemed them useless. The next best thing was blue shell, which can only be gotten with the balloon that floats down, which is way further ahead and generally a slower strat to turn around and shoot yourself into the tunnel. Now let's take this strat and make it optimal, eh?

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Posted: 7/11/2008 2:25 AM

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adelikat

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Hah! Very nice strat. And by eliminating the waiting for Wario, this simplifies things greatly. (Still pretty complicated though). But I like that the track is no longer "frame ruled" by the CPU AI. Excellent work sir!

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Posted: 7/11/2008 3:04 AM

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Weatherton

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xenos wrote:

I found a somewhat new strategy on LR that is faster than the current one though I wouldn't be surprised if someone had already thought of this given how obvious it is. Using red shells from the tunnel, you can launch yourself over the wall in much the same way that blue shells do. The end result is, as Weatherton predicted, much less entertaining than the current run which is a bit of a shame given how much I enjoyed the previous. I made a test run that finishes in 35.31.

Nice :) I had tried the Red shell but, for some reason was never able to get the forward momentum necessary to get over. It really is a bit of a shame since the other version is so much more exciting to watch. Oh well though, there are plenty of other exciting courses left. For the record, my Star Cup test run has been stuck on BC for a while now since I can't get the CPU hop SC to work... which is odd, since I've done it in real time. Now, where we need a lot of effort put is on KTB. That course is crazy, there are potential huge CPU hop SC's, but they require all kinds of craziness. I will post a bit on it this weekend. Two SC's that I have been able to do is a jump over the first rock in front of the Turtle Rock and then using the messed up finish line (right side) to get good items in first place. I used that tremendously to my advantage in RRy.

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Posted: 7/11/2008 12:53 PM

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adelikat

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Well, I for one don't think it is (will be) less exciting to watch. It is a creative solution, it takes control of the course rather than sitting around and waiting for a cpu player, and it still has 3 milestyle shortcuts which are the best part of that course.

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Posted: 7/12/2008 2:44 AM

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Mitjitsu

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I'm in aw at the latest WIP, just one thing... Wouldn't it be better to use the green shells instead of the red ones?

Posted: 7/12/2008 3:04 AM

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Comicalflop

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Green Shells, when I tested them, could never make you bounce up high enough to get over the wall. High enough to get over the wall in Rainbow Road yes, but not LR. And Green shells won't be any faster, since they have to bounce off of something first and "fire and it homes back at you" will be far easier, and faster, than "bounce off a wall at the precise angle to hit you". KTB will be a nightmare, I think there are 6 or 7 potential glitches and shortcuts that do not work well together to form a consistent route. In addition to that, there are even more crazy theories that have yet to be tested. Weatherton, on BC, you had to have extreme conditions to get a kart in the right place, right? How did you get a CPU in the spot where that 2nd kart is? and wasn't the second player using a shroom himself? or are we thinking o different shortcuts?

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Posted: 7/13/2008 8:55 AM

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xenos

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Comicalflop wrote:

And Green shells won't be any faster, since they have to bounce off of something first and "fire and it homes back at you" will be far easier, and faster, than "bounce off a wall at the precise angle to hit you".

I should probably point out that the red shells don't actually home back on me but on one of the CPU's and I just happen to get in the way so there is equal precision there. If green shells were to able to get you over the wall they would be faster because you can collect three of them at once saving you the second item box trip. So anyway, I discovered a small technique to speed you up while in a slide; all you need is to move the control stick back and forth every frame. This technique has limited use because you would typically be charging an MT instead. It is useful while shrooming, though. To prove its usefulness I attempted to beat Fried's MR flap and just barely succeeded. Video. Also, I haven't seen it mentioned yet so here is the speed address for memory watching - 00A5121D. Yay! No more speedometer.

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