This run focus on ENTERTAINMENT , speed is not a priority here. I tried to make a lot of variations of combos and never repeating the same strategy at any stage. I choose yoshi again, because it's one of my favorite characthers, has an excelent combo potential and is the funniest characther in game.
Stage 1 - Link: Every hit besides the egg is a combo, used the wall a lot to make it entertaining, the last hit was used for a more entertaining finish even notconnecting perfectly.
Stage 2 - Yoshi team : I tried to make this as entertaining as it could be, wasn't a fast completion but it sure was entertaining, a variation of items can be used here because i have the time required for them to appear.
Stage 3 - Fox : Average yoshi combo, although it doesn't look like, every hit conects, fox has already reached the ground at the DAIR so he cannot tech out, you can tell by his upwards spinning animation. Thinking of the perfect combo to kill him entertainingly is hard because of the lack of walls in the stage, the distance to the edge , and the fact that fox is a mid weight characther, being harder to combo with yoshi. Glad this turned out well. ( i didn't use airwing because they take about 15 seconds to appear and most times shoots at the wrong direction.)
Stage 4 : Mario Bros : A few hits in the beggining just to get everything in position, after the blomb explodes every hit connects on both brothers. IMO best looking combo.
Stage 5: Pikachu : Yoshi doesn't have much potential against medium - low weighted characthers, used venosaur to make the combo more entertaining and not having to finish it quicker, every hit connects.
Stage 6: DK : it's impossible to hit a 0 to death on giant DK using yoshi, so i decided to show the beastly damage per sec power yoshi has. Since DK is insanely heavy, the UAIR juggle can be repated very long while still connecting.
Stage 7: Kirby team : there aren't much ways of finishing off kirbys, the coolest way is to spike them to death, so i prefered using it. Added a shield breaker and manipulated link kirby suicide just for fun :P
Stage 8: Samus : This fight was already quite entertaining in my last TAS, did a few modifications at the beginning and spiked her to death , ping pong with lava was short but cool IMO.
Stage 9: Metal Mario : I prefered to keep the egg strategy. I could have also gotten him to 300% and then finishing him off as usual, but that was already done at giant DK, Metal Mario isn't much of a fun fight if u ask me, the eggs is the best way to kill him while still keeping some of entertainment IMO.
Stage 10: Polygon team: Made it less repetitive and used most items as i could. Pretty entertaining overall.
Final Stage: I used a diferent way of manipulating the Hand's move at the beggining which i couldn't get to work in the speedrun, that allowed me to parry the crush and keep going on with the hits. There really is no way more entertaining than that to kill the hand off, still it's a cool way.
Bonus Stages: Completed as everyone requested, since i'm not going to the fastest time there's no reason to skip them now.
I hope this run is better seen by the sight of the expectators than the last run, because it trully is more entertaining than pure speed.
mmbossman: This movie demonstates a good superplay of this game; it shows off funny and interesting fights while still maintaining a quick tempo. It is clear that this is a tool-assisted movie to a normal viewer, and viewer feedback has been extremely positive. As such, I am accepting this for publication as a "playaround" type movie. Future runs will be judged by the entertainment value and mastery of the game, rather than the final completion time.
Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 19
Location: Brazil - Rio de Janeiro
Kirkq wrote:
all I was trying to say is chaining hits together really doesn't really give me the "tool-assisted feel"
Also, another thing definitely missing in this run is taunt cancelling.
do not critize if u don't know what u talking about, try doing a DJC to spike with yoshi non-TAS or repeating any combo seen in the run, the best ssb players would take days to do it even once, also yoshi cannot taunt cancel, and if i choose any characther that could do it u would complain anyway at stages like DK and metal mario. What would give u a tool assisted feel ? not lconnecting hits ? Nothing can give u more of the tool assisted feel besides linking nearly impossible hits and doing frame perfect movements.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Blaze wrote:
Kirkq wrote:
all I was trying to say is chaining hits together really doesn't really give me the "tool-assisted feel"
Also, another thing definitely missing in this run is taunt cancelling.
do not critize if u don't know what u talking about, try doing a DJC to spike with yoshi non-TAS or repeating any combo seen in the run, the best ssb players would take days to do it even once, also yoshi cannot taunt cancel, and if i choose any characther that could do it u would complain anyway at stages like DK and metal mario. What would give u a tool assisted feel ? not lconnecting hits ? Nothing can give u more of the tool assisted feel besides linking nearly impossible hits and doing frame perfect movements.
Kirkq got toooold.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Well I know for a fact that Isai could most likely do any of the combos in this run realtime, but he's the best smash 64 player by a long shot... I mean, in tournaments, he'll beat second place by a 3 stock margin easy <_<;
But for normal humans, yes... this feels very tool-assisted and very impossible to do real time.
Joined: 3/14/2008
Posts: 152
Location: United Kingdom
XIF wrote:
Well I know for a fact that Isai could most likely do any of the combos in this run realtime, but he's the best smash 64 player by a long shot... I mean, in tournaments, he'll beat second place by a 3 stock margin easy <_<;
But for normal humans, yes... this feels very tool-assisted and very impossible to do real time.
Well I know for a fact that Isai could most likely do any of the combos in this run realtime, but he's the best smash 64 player by a long shot... I mean, in tournaments, he'll beat second place by a 3 stock margin easy <_<;
But for normal humans, yes... this feels very tool-assisted and very impossible to do real time.
I never knew that SSB butchered the LoZ theme! It repeats every 20 seconds, and is massively annoying.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
I never knew that SSB butchered the LoZ theme! It repeats every 20 seconds, and is massively annoying.
When it came out it wasn't expected to sell millions of units.
And Re Isai: holy crap, any match of his is a pleasure to watch since he has the most humiliating ways of killing people and he can use almost everyone. 1:05 into this, for example.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I have yet to see a recorded match of Isai losing at SSB. I once, in a rare moment, saw him lose in Melee, but that's it.
When you study what he does (and I do. Let's pretend it's from admiration + trying to learn) he does a few things:
-One: stick in the air and attack. Even if he's not directly attacking his opponent, he'll jump, and attack once or twice before landing. And then he'll jump again. I assume he's doing it to stay in a focused state of pushing buttons, so that when he is attacking the opponent, he's prepared.
-Two: he never misses any of the advanced tricks. He never misses Z cancels, taunt cancels, can string together advanced combos, everything. He always maintains consistency.
-Three: he mastered every character. in SSB, that's 12 chars; not too hard, I did it. I beat all my friends/family with any char. It's just memorizing how ever character moves.
-Among each character, he has taken their styles/techniques and improved upon them. Watch an Isai video, then watch a different player play the same character. Big difference.
-Practice. I bet he practices forever.
-Luck. He has it. shrug.
-His recovery patterns are amazing. For most characters, he utilitizes techniques to jump farther, like:
-Luigi/Mario: tornado spin, and mash B to go higher
-DK: jump and charge a B swing
-Have Link hold a bomb, and get blasted closer to the edge
-Control. Exert control, and you'll win. Combo the opponent, and keep them unable to move (ssbm is all about wavedashing; ssb is all about juggling.)
You get the idea.
SSBM is hardly all about wavedashing. I'll list out the main differences between SSB64 and SSBM (Being an SSBM pro player, you can look up XIF on YouTube if you want, I play peach)
SSB64 is really about landing the first hit and 0-deathing your opponent. Directional influence (influencing where you fly off to after getting hit) is alot more primitive in SSB64 than SSBM, along with other tactics to help survival, such as meteor cancelling, ledge teching, etc. I think this quote about MVC2 fits SSB64 nicely, which is "Mindgames exist until the first hit lands"
SSBM is more about character specific strategies than anything. This is obviously important in SSB64, but for the most part every character has a bread and butter death combo vs almost everyone, whereas in SSBM it varies radically. Falco needs to press the advantage he has on stage and mobility control with his laser. He can effectively control his space and limit the mobility of other characters all with his laser. In some cases this lack of mobility really hurts the opponent, and allows Falco to do his own brand of bread and butter death combo. Someone like Jigglypuff in contrast is more about preventing the opponent from entering her own space, along with the best edgeguarding strats in the game, and against some characters really easy rest combos and opportunities. Marth once again differently is about safely approaching using his massive range and priority.
SSB64 is more character balanced while less fundamentally balanced, while SSBM is less character balanced but more fundamentally balanced. This sounds weird I know but the basic idea is that while in SSB64 there are tiers (no denying Pikachu, Kirby, and Ness are the best) every character has a fairly good chance at winning (Well... Samus sucks). In SSBM, if you're not playing Fox, Falco, Marth, or Sheik you really stand little chance of getting first at the national level. You'll see Peach, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, jigglypuff, and even a ganondorf or two sneak up there, but its mainly the top four. The issue is that certain tactics in SSB64 are simply overpowered/underpowered to an extreme point. In SSBM, there is really no tactic like that where spamming it or always going for it will always yeild neutral or positive results.
Case in point is Sheilding in SSB64. Its near useless because of the amount of stun you get. The sheild breaker in this movie is hardly unheard of. Matter of fact with kirby against any character, you can land one uptilt and you have an auto sheild break which they cant escape because of the stun. 3 up tilts to forward smash and you have instant sheild break. Another case being grabbing, where the throws are so absurdly powerful for kills, yet grabbing has almost no startup or wind down. SSBM has certain powerful tactics, but none to the point where you cannot be punished at least sometimes. Power shielding can disrupt falco's lasers, ledge teching to ledge hop attacks against people who camp the ledge and go for spikes, going for weak spots on powerful attacks to counter like peach's d smash, etc. The only really overpowered tactics in SSBM is basic reflector strats with Fox and Falco, but even then there are times where foolish use can lead to death.
As for Isai: He loves SSB64, and hence why he plays it so much and is so good. He mildly enjoys SSBM but doesnt take it nearly as seriously. Which is why you'll see him lose matches sometimes and then other times seem unstoppable. My Melee teams partner beat Isai in tournament pools, but that just happens. He also played isai in SSB64 and barely took a stock per match >_>
/rant about a game I like too much >_>
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Twelvepack wrote:
I would love to hear his perspective on brawl. I find myself not liking it, but I can't put my finger on why.
I don't like the announcer voice. And the new air dodging. And Classic mode leaves something to be desired. I liked board the platforms and race to the finish, dammit!
I enjoyed SSBM's adventure somewhat though.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Brawl is a horrible fighting game, but a very good game for pure entertainment[/i]
oh where to begin.
Its like Brawl combined the character imbalance of Melee with the fundamental imbalance of SSB64, and multiplied it 100 fold. To begin...
Metaknight is far and away the best character in that game. He really should be banned, but the idiots at SWF do not realize this apparently. Metaknight has absolutely no weakness. His glide can gain height, meaning infinite recovery, His Mach Tornado has such absurd priority that it beats or clanks with 90% of the moves in the entire game (granted the top is vulnerable but you have so much mobility and control with it that it is easily avoidable) Plus it deals alot of damage. Up B has unbelievably even more priority, and is also absurdly fast and powerful, netting below 80% kills on a large majority of the cast. Then his glide attack is the highest priority move in the game. It will always either beat or clank with every other move in the game. Oh yeah, and there's a glitch where if you down B into the ground, hold down, and mash up on the C stick rapidly, Metaknight is completely invisible and INVULNERABLE. The technical aspect of it is complicated, but basically you bounce when you down B into the ground, and it extends the duration, and the c stick mashing smash DI's you away, causing you to bounce repeatedly and stay invulnerable.
The majority of his moveset is quick, unpunishable, powerful, and just dumb. There are other dumb characters like snake who can live to 200 and kill at 80% with all of his absurdly fast and powerful tilts and aerials. Falco also basically makes half the cast unplayable as his chaingrab to spike make characters like ganondorf and ivysaur weep. And then you have characters like sonic, with no killing power, combo ability, edge guard ability, or anything really. Its pathetic.
Brawl is a prime example of how character balance isnt the only thing that makes a fighting game good. Whichever way you put it, the game rewards mindless spamming and no thought. Most characters can spam rolls and spot dodges with little or no punishment, because so many of them have little start up or wind down. Dedede's spot dodge if timed correctly only has One frame of vulnerability. Yeah pretty sweet, and other characters like ROB and others have rolls and spot dodges not far behind that. One of the things that made Melee and SSB64 stand out was its in depth edgeguarding game, but the fact you can airdodge multiple times and you automatically grab the ledge (and gain its invincibility from it) has neutered the entire concept altogether. You can seriously with just about any character grab the ledge, let go, and up B back and retain full invincibility from it while having a hit box out there from the up B.
There are other character specific strategies that can just be spamming mindlessly without repercussions. Zelda's Dins Fire is one move that is just really fast and hits a large area. Pikachu gets almost no lag from his down B anymore, plus its powerful making off the top kills a joke for him. Lucario has the ridiculous aura ability which basically doubles his power and priority by the time he reaches 120 or so, making him an absolute unfair pain to handle. Especially with proration in attack power in Brawl being far more significant than in the other 2 games, Aura basically nullifies this.
It just goes on... I dropped Melee completely and played Brawl competitively and exclusively for months after the initial Japanese release (we imported a copy to play a month before the US release). And I gave it a big chance to be a good game, and really went in expecting nothing but the best. But expecting anything more from brawl than just a fun beat em up with nintendo mascots is just folly. Melee may have been the greatest mistake in fighting game history. >_>;
So I went back to Melee and I picked up Guilty Gear Seriously (now thats a prime example of Character balance and fundamental balance);
EDIT:
The announcer in the Japanese version (along with the voice acting) is amazing. They really messed up on the US version <_<
I realize most people disagree with my opinion of this run, but I would like to put my opinion of brawl next to XIF's. XIF is a highly credible melee player, he beat me a couple years ago in a nationwide tournament. I think some of his claims against brawl are a bit exaggerated, though much of his argument is quite clear.
Much of brawl is about offensive and defensive tactics. Generally the character with the better projectile stands back and shoots projectiles while the other character is stuck on the offensive. Yes, a lot of character counters exist, and yes the strategy is quite repetitive/campy at times.
I've been to a few brawl tournaments and I play a very simple-styled ROB. I do very few risky or flashy moves, and much of my strategy is defensive.
XIF wrote:
Metaknight is far and away the best character in that game. He really should be banned...
Metaknight is very good yes, and it is very hard to fight against some of his moves. Tornado is easily the hardest move in the game to get around. I deal with this by standing at the edge of the level at most times so Meta Knight takes a large risk tornadoing off the stage. The Up B should never kill you, simply don't float above him. The infinite down B will likely be banned as a stall tactic, it is of no concern beyond that.
XIF wrote:
There are other dumb characters like snake who can live to 200 and kill at 80%
Snake gets gimped off the edge quite easily, and his game is very limited by some characters such as falco, DeDeDe and in my opinion ROB as well.
XIF wrote:
Falco also basically makes half the cast unplayable...
Ganondorf, Ivysaur, Sonic, and (I'll also add) Ness were already all but unplayable without these issues. Falco can also only chain grab most characters to 40%. All games have terrible characters, brawls terrible characters are just comparatively more terrible than melee's.
DeDeDe is probably the most gameplay quality degrading character chain throwing half the cast the length of the stage.
XIF wrote:
One of the things that made Melee and SSB64 stand out was its in depth edgeguarding game...
Melee is an edgeguarding game, I think it's ridiculous how much edge guarding factors into the game. Marth most often wins by gimping characters at like 50%
Brawl is not about gimping a stock off of your opponent, it's simply a different mentality behind the gameplay.
I think melee can be criticized due to too much edgeguarding, and brawl for perhaps not enough.
XIF wrote:
Zelda's Dins Fire is one move that is just really fast and hits a large area. Pikachu gets almost no lag from his down B anymore, plus its powerful making off the top kills a joke for him. Lucario has the ridiculous aura ability.
You can powershield almost every projectile in the game. Approaching through Zelda's Din's Fire is dash, shield, dash, shield. Pikachu's down B is easy to air dodge through and nowhere near broken, and Lucarios aura really doesn't even make him a great character.
In conclusion, yes there is stupid stuff in brawl. Chain throws, Meta Knight's Tornado, and projectile spamming are among these. I also think that there was a lot wrong with melee.
I know a lot of players who take XIF's side of the opinion, and I know a lot of players who take my side of the opinion.
Brawl is simply a different game, better or worse.
Nice! gogogogo publication.
kirkq: Pound 2 right? it was only a friendly really, but I suppose so ;)
I dont want to get too indepth on the argument, but I will say that at high level play, its hardly about get them off the stage for auto death.
The converse of that is "In melee its about get them off the stage for auto death.", which I don't think is a good thing either.
Also, I think you're correct about our playing. I think I played you in friendlies at FC3 or 6, and then at Pound 2 you destroyed me in friendlies, proving that I would lose in a tournament match were it to occur.
How many people would be interested in a 100% run? I was thinking that there could be a legit entertainment run that focuses on unlocking all the characters, meaning 3 runs of classic mode and completing the original 8 break the targets. I know that isnt a true 100%, but true 100% would mean playing through classic with the original 8, plus coompleting all 24 btt and btp stages to get the secret stage, 4 characters, and complete all bonuses.
Something with this aim in mind would get to show off more of the game while retaining its entertainment value.
I meant to bring back up the discussion of what KIND of 100% run. As the previous discussion left it at "well it'd be cool but probably way too long" I'm inquiring specifics here. I am not entirely familiar with TAS'ing, but I do know the mechanics of SSB very well.
I meant to bring back up the discussion of what KIND of 100% run. As the previous discussion left it at "well it'd be cool but probably way too long" I'm inquiring specifics here. I am not entirely familiar with TAS'ing, but I do know the mechanics of SSB very well.
I'd be interested in seeing a run like this, but I don't think it's publishing quality, mostly just because going through classic mode multiple times would be mediocre. You might think "well, different characters would make it more interesting" but suppose viewers would want to easily access the third run, using character X; they have to fast-forward through two runs to do it, or download a big chunk of encode, as opposed to simply submitting three separate classic mode TASes. I don't think the trade-off of time is worth fighting three extra characters; when it comes down to it, KOing Ness/Cfal/Jigglypuff isn't going to look very different from KOing any other characters.
I would like to see a TAS time attack of the target test and platforms, just to see what the lowest possible time is. That might be publishable.
