If you take things like radiation into account, it seems you assume for no particular reason that every intelligent life has to be similar to that on Earth.
As long as there's no tangible evidence of any other type of life, I have to assume that it's highly unlikely to exist. (If it were likely to exist, we would have noticed by now.)
I'm open to possibilities, but I don't base my views on what might be possible, without any kind of supporting evidence.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
Is space endless? Is there life on other planets? Is there a God? It's all mysticism unless there is proof. You can have mysticism, theories and discussions that take you knowhere. Just believe what you will and it won't make a difference.
Or you can use your theories to help you look for facts that prove it, and become a notable scientist.
What I believe not that anyone cares, is that space is endless, that an infinite amount of matter exists, that time is endless, that there is life everywhere and that there is a god.
If you take things like radiation into account, it seems you assume for no particular reason that every intelligent life has to be similar to that on Earth.
As long as there's no tangible evidence of any other type of life, I have to assume that it's highly unlikely to exist. (If it were likely to exist, we would have noticed by now.)
I'm open to possibilities, but I don't base my views on what might be possible, without any kind of supporting evidence.
Why would we have noticed by now if it's likely to exist? Distances are huge, and civilizations might have a tendency to blow themselves up, or other unfortunate events might happen.
FODA wrote:
As long as there's no tangible evidence of any other type of life, I have to assume that it's highly unlikely to exist. (If it were likely to exist, we would have noticed by now.)
I'm open to possibilities, but I don't base my views on what might be possible, without any kind of supporting evidence.
But apparently you also hold the view that every randomly made up thing is by default highly unlikely. I agree that the more arbitrary rules you add, the less likely it gets. In the case of extraterrial life, I don't think it's a very obscure thought at all. But in the end often the only thing one can do is admit that we just don't know.
Just because there's no evidence that we have souls, it doesn't mean it's highly unlikely that we have to me. I know nothing about it. On the other hand, you might argue there is evidence. But then, there's also evidence that life might exist elsewhere. The universe is big, there are lots of planets, and lots of time seems to have passed already. Evidence is always easily found.
I have to say I'm not a big fan of concepts like evidence, proof and truth anyway. We make up theories about the world and apply them to raise our standards. And it works. It might because those theories are true or for one of many other reasons. How probable any of these are, I don't know, because I know nothing about the creation of this world. Our concept of probability is based on the experience we make here on Earth. I don't think it's very appliable in discussions that are related to what happened before this world came to existence. That includes both topics, souls and aliens.
I don't know if our theories about the world are true, but I will still apply them because they help me live a happy life. But when it comes to discussions about what's the real truth about this world I admit that I don't know anything.
As long as there's no tangible evidence of any other type of life, I have to assume that it's highly unlikely to exist. (If it were likely to exist, we would have noticed by now.)
Angels, demons and UFOs are enough evidence for me! I don't know if you've noticed or not but... they even live on the same planet that we do. Too bad that they're usually invisible for us.
FODA wrote:
You can have mysticism, theories and discussions that take you knowhere.
I noticed your freudian slip there: KNOWhere. Yes, I know where it takes us: Everywhere.
Baxter wrote:
Is that consistent with a big bang?
No, but it doesn't matter because the Big Bang is a Big Dud. It didn't happen. Fred Hoyle said so.
Or you can use your theories to help you look for facts that prove it, and become a notable scientist.
"Science" is a cult based upon faith in the repeatability of experiments. I happen to be part of the cult, but professing that it's somehow superior to a different faith is kind of presumptuous. There's no way we can know for sure that some experiment will not suddenly fail. We can only have faith that it won't.
Angels, demons and UFOs are enough evidence for me! I don't know if you've noticed or not but... they even live on the same planet that we do. Too bad that they're usually invisible for us.
Something for which there's not a single piece of verifiable and repeatable evidence is enough evidence for you? That's contradictory.
Something becomes evidence when it can be measured, and that measurement can be repeated by independent parties. Can you provide me any means by which I could measure or observe those things? Can you provide me any phenomenon which cannot be attributed to simple hoaxes, lies or hallucinations? Anything that cannot be measured and is trivially explainable by a hallucination is not evidence.
On what exactly do you base the claim "they are invisible for us"? Exactly which measurable and observable physical phenomenon would explain this invisibility? Or do you believe these things exist (and are "usually invisible for us") simply because other people have told you so? Do you believe everything you are told?
Can an invisible being see us? Exactly how does this happen? Clearly not by interaction with light, ie. electromagnetic waves (because if they interacted with light, they would not be invisible and unmeasurable). If not light, then what? Some kind of exotic energy science has been unable to measure? And exactly what do you base the existence of this exotic, unmeasurable energy on? Not on measurements, by definition.
Something for which there's not a single piece of verifiable and repeatable evidence is enough evidence for you? That's contradictory.
uhh... there is evidence. like videos, photographs and eyewitnesses. and we have evidence from traditions and religious scriptures too.
Can you provide me any phenomenon which cannot be attributed to simple hoaxes, lies or hallucinations? Anything that cannot be measured and is trivially explainable by a hallucination is not evidence.
there are several cases where many people have seen a UFO or alien beings. it's unlikely that everybody would have the same hallucination.
i wouldn't say that evidence is the same as proof, because evidence (observations) has to be interpreted, and the interpretation could be wrong. for example, there is evidence for the big bang theory, but it doesn't prove that big bang happened. it's ONLY a theory. likewise, the astral realm is also just a theory, at least for us non-clairvoyant people. you might as well call the big bang theory a belief. all beliefs are based on some kind of evidence anyway. it's impossible to believe something without seeing or experiencing some kind of evidence.
On what exactly do you base the claim "they are invisible for us"? Exactly which measurable and observable physical phenomenon would explain this invisibility?
UFOs and alien beings often manifest from invisibility and vice versa, kinda like ghosts, because they are a closely related phenomenon.
Or do you believe these things exist (and are "usually invisible for us") simply because other people have told you so? Do you believe everything you are told?
except the observational evidence, i also believe it because traditions (ie. ancient science) say so, and i believe in traditions because there is evidence that they are right. for example, traditions say that there used to be giant humans on earth and we have found skeletons of giants. UFOs are another 'prediction' made by these holy scriptures.
Can an invisible being see us?
they're not really invisible, they're just invisible from our point of view. when you die and become a spirit, this world becomes invisible and the spirit world becomes visible. no, they can't see us, just as we can't see them, unless we are clairvoyant or if they temporarily leak into our world.
Clearly not by interaction with light, ie. electromagnetic waves (because if they interacted with light, they would not be invisible and unmeasurable).
all the worlds consists of light ("let there be light"), waves. we are only able to see a small part of this electromagnetic spectrum though, even if we use technology.
And exactly what do you base the existence of this exotic, unmeasurable energy on?
myths, logic, eye-witnesses, observational and experimental evidence. there's no reason to think that the electromagnetic spectrum ends at radio waves and gamma rays just because it's the current limitation of our technology. thought waves are way beyond, and we may never be able to detect the worlds they create, other than with our third inner eye.
this is what they say... i don't believe these so much that wouldn't bet my life on all these crazy ideas. i would only bet my life on some of them.
uhh... there is evidence. like videos, photographs
Most of which have been irrefutably proven to be faked or depicting normal natural phenomena.
and eyewitnesses
Hardly evidence. People lie, get deceived and get hallucinations.
and we have evidence from traditions and religious scriptures too.
Which amounts to exactly as much scientific credibility as a sci-fi novel.
For something to have scientific credibility it has to be measurable, and the measurement has to be repeatable by anyone. Someone claiming they saw something is hardly evidence. How do you prove they are not lying, mistaken or hallucinating?
there are several cases where many people have seen a UFO or alien beings. it's unlikely that everybody would have the same hallucination.
And there have been countless cases where even large groups of people have lied to promote a hoax, or simply repeated a delusion after being deceived by a hoax. You wouldn't believe how much the simple power of suggestion can affect what people perceive. Witnesses are very unreliable.
i wouldn't say that evidence is the same as proof, because evidence (observations) has to be interpreted, and the interpretation could be wrong. for example, there is evidence for the big bang theory, but it doesn't prove that big bang happened. it's ONLY a theory. likewise, the astral realm is also just a theory, at least for us non-clairvoyant people.
The difference is that the big bang theory is based on measurements which anyone can perform and repeat, the "astral realm" theory is based only on what people claim they have seen or experienced, nothing which can be measured or observed. In other words, the former has basis on measurements, the latter doesn't. Even if the former is not true, at least it's based on something scientifically credible. You don't have to rely solely on dubious eyewitness accounts in order to believe in the big bang theory.
UFOs and alien beings often manifest from invisibility and vice versa, kinda like ghosts, because they are a closely related phenomenon.
This is based on absolutely no verifiable, measurable evidence.
except the observational evidence, i also believe it because traditions (ie. ancient science) say so, and i believe in traditions because there is evidence that they are right.
So you do believe something only based on what you have been told, even though there's no way you can measure nor observe it yourself.
for example, traditions say that there used to be giant humans on earth and we have found skeletons of giants.
Those "skeletons" were a rather cheap hoax which even the authors themselves took seriously. It's yet another phenomenon which is not repeatable.
Can an invisible being see us?
they're not really invisible, they're just invisible from our point of view. when you die and become a spirit, this world becomes invisible and the spirit world becomes visible. no, they can't see us, just as we can't see them, unless we are clairvoyant or if they temporarily leak into our world.
And you base this on what? How do you know they don't see us? Have you talked to them?
Clearly not by interaction with light, ie. electromagnetic waves (because if they interacted with light, they would not be invisible and unmeasurable).
all the worlds consists of light ("let there be light"), waves. we are only able to see a small part of this electromagnetic spectrum though, even if we use technology.
And exactly which part would that be? Any references?
And exactly what do you base the existence of this exotic, unmeasurable energy on?
myths, logic
Oh, that interests me: Logic? Exactly what kind of logic?
observational and experimental evidence.
Which nobody can repeat? Where are the publications on this?
there's no reason to think that the electromagnetic spectrum ends at radio waves and gamma rays
You don't even know what you are talking about, do you?
I'm afraid this quesion has been asked before in this thread, but I'm interested to hear what made you believe in YHWH? I'm asking because I don't see any proof for his/her/its existence, nor against it, so it would theoretically be my free choice to start believing in him.
I'm not even sure if I want to atm, it seems to have both advantages (like a longer life) and disadvantages (people thinking you're crazy). Of course stuff like getting into some sort of heaven isn't an argument for me considering my very sceptic standpoint.
However, even if I would come to the conclusion it would be good to start believing in YHWH, I still wouldn't know how to believe in something without any basis whatsoever. I hear the argument a lot that if I asked for it, YHWH would let me feel it and make me know he/she/it exists. Lots of believers tell me that's what happened to them.
But how would I know? I mean if I suddenly got a strange feeling and stuff, I still couldn't know if it was YHWH, coincidence, my brain or something else that caused it. And then I'd still have to believe without any basis which I guess I can't. If I did I could just basically believe in anything. x_x
I can trust people without questioning what they recommend me to do. Mainly because if they did, and I then followed their advice and something bad happened, in the end I could still profit from it because it would have enhanced our emotional connection. I just don't see how I could blindly trust ideologies..
So what was it that caused you to do so?
If your answer is that you felt it, please also discribe why you chose to interpret the feeling you had in this particular way.
Thanks.
Thank you for asking, Kuwaga.
I'm afraid I cannot draw from my personal experience to answer your question regarding how to start believing that YHWH exists. I have never not believed that.
However, believing in YHWH is a different thing.
Believing that one exists is different from having faith in them. I'm still learning that.
When they came to the crowd, a man approached Yeshua and knelt before him. "Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.
"You unbelieving and perverse generation," Yeshua replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." Yeshua rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.
Then the disciples came to Yeshua in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
Faith in YHWH means that one takes His words at face value and accepts them as complete and uncompromised truth.
It is surprisingly difficult, but luckily, we don't need to produce faith unassisted.
The Bible is full of examples showing that if we take a leap of faith, God will do his part, which will strengthen our faith.
Starting from Moshe's brother, Aharon: He spoke in front of the Pharaoh of Egypt and threw his staff to the ground, expecting it to turn into a snake, because God has promised to do so. But not until he actually threw the staff, did he get a confirmation that it indeed happens. And it strengthened Moshe's faith that he could deliver the word he had regarding the plagues to come -- again before seeing it actually happening, only trusting that God will do his part.
Eliyahu challenged the priests of Ba'al: both parties will build an altar to their respective deities, and see which one answers. And not until the fire struck from the heavens and scorched the water-soaked meat, the altar, and obliterated the moat around it full of water, did he have anything tangible other than God's promise that his spirit is upon him and the faith that his feeling that he is exactly where God wants him to be, is right.
Gedeon, who had seen a messenger of YHWH telling him that He will deliver Israel from the Midianites through his hand, was unsure if the word was truly from the God of his ancestors, and asked Him for proof. He put wool on the ground, and said in prayer, if at the morning, the wool is wet but everything else is dry, he will believe. God made it so, but Gedeon was still doubting and asked for another test: if next morning, the wool is dry but everything else is wet, he will believe that the message truly was from YHWH. And God made it so. Anyone could still have doubted, but Gedeon had enough support to his faith now. He did his leap of faith, and YHWH kept his promise.
Last January, I went with a certain missionary organization to a weekend-long trip to St. Petersburg.
I had felt that God had asked me to go there. But I did not have any tangible proof of that. If anyone asked me, it could have been just my own idea.
I had no idea what to expect. Weeks elapsed, and it came the morning when we would go.
But when I entered the group's rent bus waiting for me in front of the art museum in Helsinki, I immediately I felt a strong feeling. A feeling that is best comparable to hugging someone you love immensely.
I felt that I'm exactly where I must be, and that God is with us, on this very trip.
Not when I entered my name in the list of travellers. Not when I paid the trip price. Not even when I saw the bus.
Only when I entered the point of no turning back. And it continued to strengthen from there.
I had no idea what I'm going to do at that place where we are going, and I knew that I must trust YHWH with all my heart to give me direction.
And so he did. By putting the right ideas in my mind; ideas that had nothing to do with my deduction.
Faith is like falling backwards and knowing that someone is there catching you.
You can't say you have faith, until you actually tilt backwards and start falling.
And then, the someone will catch you, and you are gratified.
Repenting and asking Yeshua to become one's sole Lord is a leap of faith. You cannot do it as a probe.
You have to go all-way-in. And he indeed catches you. That's when you know.
Reading YHWH's word, the Bible, is helpful in building your faith -- because then you learn of all things God has promised -- but until you actually put the faith to test, you cannot say you have faith.
You may witness things that make it easier for you to take the leap of faith, but you still need to do it personally.
Thank you Bisqwit, it made me happy to read how having faith worked to make your life more enjoyable. I'm sorry if the rest of my post sounds a bit disjointed. :/
Some parts of what is said about YHWH or Yeshua in the Bible - that they will cleanse you of the feeling of guilt if you follow their path, for example - indeed have a lot in common with self-fulfilling prophecies. You feel guilty all day and cannot forgive yourself, but once you start believing into the Bible you can, so it is almost like YHWH and Yeshua really existed just because of the claim that they would. It is amazing in any case and as believing into the Bible won't do any harm to believers - it's more like the opposite - I see no reason to argue with them about it other than for the sake of being right (or honest in some situations).
I'm happy there's such a thing as religion and I agree believing in others, yourself and having faith that things will work out in your life are important, not only for a healthy psyche.
If YHWH existed, I'm sure he/she/it would have worded things slightly differently from how they were back then however. Of course the general message would be the same, but I often have the feeling people like to overinterpret the Bible. It's understandable because dealing extensively with YHWH's word is a way to incorporate him/her/it more and more into your life and follow the path of light. But arguing with others about what YHWH really wanted to say by totally overanalysing his/her/its words, I don't know... The holy spirit is present anywhere in any case, so sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better to focus more on getting more aware of it rather than on exact wordings in the Bible. I'm more for a symbolic reading of the Bible, and more on an emotional rather than a logical level.
I often have the feeling people like to overinterpret the Bible. It's understandable because dealing extensively with YHWH's word is a way to incorporate him/her/it more and more into your life and follow the path of light. But arguing with others about what YHWH really wanted to say by totally overanalysing his/her/its words, I don't know...
Heh, I can't even say how much I agree with you.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
so it is almost like YHWH and Yeshua really existed just because of the claim that they would
I'll have to admit that I don't understand the rationale behind this wording.
Kuwaga wrote:
I'm happy there's such a thing as religion
Ironically, my view is completely the opposite. But then again, our definitions of "religion" may differ a bit. What I see as not-religion you see as such, and vice versa.
I emphasize that a personal relationship with Yeshua is a tantamount over any actions. You can't win the prize by doing good deeds or with any rituals. Even if you decorate your whole home with spiritual icons, prostrate 5 times a day facing an important town of some particular lore, fast for 40 days and 40 nights, talk to a thousand people compelling them to convert to #{religion}, and can quote your holy book forwards and backwards in 4 different languages, but your relationship with LORD is akin to sending a Happy Sabbath postcard once a week, you're as good as a door mattress when it comes to salvation.
Kuwaga wrote:
But arguing with others about what YHWH really wanted to say by totally overanalysing his/her/its words [...] sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better to focus more on getting more aware of it rather than on exact wordings in the Bible. I'm more for a symbolic reading of the Bible, and more on an emotional rather than a logical level.
Depends.
The Bible is a book that has multiple layers of meanings all over it, as though everything* written in it happened both at different times and at the same time, and in the spiritual realm and the physical realm separately and at the same time, and in a literal, metaphorical and prophetical sense at the same time. This is what makes it an endless* source of new learning and new teaching.
*) exaggerated word to make the sentence more compact. Don't take literally.
Bisqwit, do you believe in the global flood in the Bible? Do you believe in the giant humans (Genesis 6:4)? And do you believe that the first people (Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses etc.) lived several hundred years?
I'm just interested to know if someone else except me believes in these things. Many modern Christians are afraid to believe in these things because they find them scientifically illogical.
*) exaggerated word to make the sentence more compact. Don't take literally.
lul, it can be annoying sometimes if people take words too literally. but now you had to write even more text, because you had to explain why you used that word.
so it is almost like YHWH and Yeshua really existed just because of the claim that they would
I'll have to admit that I don't understand the rationale behind this wording.
Let's take this example. I'm full of sin and have a bad conscious about it. I'm not able to forgive myself because I think what I did was wrong and I wouldn't be justified to be forgiven. I think I wouldn't be because I also wouldn't be able to forgive anybody else in society who did the things I did. I may even be unable to change and still do the things that cause my bad consious every now and then.
So, with only that there's no way I can live a happy life.
But then there's somebody who claims that all of my sins will be forgiven if I follow his path. If I chose to believe in him, I suddenly have a justification to drop my guilty conscious. That's the only way now for my which enables me to escape that misery, so why not try if it works? And it does work in most cases.
If you look at it from a Freudian perspective the superego isn't manipulatable by the conscious mind. So I need to get the rule that all sins will be forgiven if I have faith and follow Yeshua's path added into my superego. Only then I can think it's ok that my sins are forgiven and suddenly I can forgive others too on that basis.
Now, in the Bible Yeshua says something akin to that he is the light and all sins canl be forgiven through him. A presupposition in this sentence is that Yeshua actually exists. Since the person who has been used as an example experienced that his sins were forgiven, it seems reasonable that something has caused this. One reasonable and the most obvious explanation is that the Bible is actually true and Yeshua really exists.
So just by the claim that he'll forgive all sins, there is automatically evidence that he exists. Though I think there are lots of other possible reasons for why this works, I can perfectly understand that people come to the conclusion that he just has to exist. And then it's also understandable how they argue they felt him, and so they know he exists, that something happened to them and that he changed them.
Also, there's no reason to stop believing into him for them because then, they would need to go back to the life in which they are bedevilled by their guilty conscience all day again. This may easily be interpreted in that if you stop following his path, it isn't the right thing to do, and the path to darkness and despair.
So, again, just by the claims he made evidence for his existence is generated automatically. Of course he might really exist and that's why things work this way, but the whole construct also works perfectly without him ever having existed at all.
(By "existed", I always mean in this case that he also was the one he claimed to have been)
I hope I've explained this a bit better now. x_x
Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA
Bisqwit wrote:
nfq wrote:
It would have consequence for our beliefs and religions though. Because if there is extraterrestrial life, God would have had to send his son to die on all of those planets.
Only if those extraterrestrial beings have a unperishable spirit like we do, and aren't akin to animals; and even then, their history could be vastly different from ours, [...]
I have to admit, I am unable to follow your post. Through honestly, I am not even trying at the fullest of my heart.
Because for me, Bible is beyond theory.
Once upon a time, it occurred to me that spirituality is like the situation in Doctor Who where The Doctor is tricked into materializing his TARDIS inside the Master's TARDIS, which appears inside the Doctor's TARDIS, which appears inside the Master's TARDIS, and so on. (Though that day, I wasn't a Doctor Who fan, and instead, I was thinking about abstract spheres hyperdimensionally enclosing each others, and I visualized it in terms of two inter-occluding 8-shapes.)
From the world's perspective, spirituality is a theory that operates under the rules of psychology and antropology and God is a concept made by man and the such.
From the biblical perspective, the world is in God's hands, and human deduction of the world is but a waste of time, for humans who lack the guidance of God's spirit, are easily misdirected by devil spirits ― the human being near the bottom of the intelligence meter in the grand scale of things.
These two views do not really meet. They are polarly opposite.
I just wrote some kind of message at http://tasvideos.org/Bisqwit.html , summing some of my thoughts regarding this site.
That was very interesting to read, thanks for summing things up for us. I do not fully understand what it is you are planning, but at the same time I realize that it's a personal issue.
I have a follow-up question regarding your choise of direction in life: If you were economically independent (for example, you somehow won 100 million dollars), what would you do with your time? Would you keep your current job, or start your own business or something? Would you move to some other country, or would you stay in Finland?
I have a follow-up question regarding your choise of direction in life: If you were economically independent (for example, you somehow won 100 million dollars), what would you do with your time? Would you keep your current job, or start your own business or something? Would you move to some other country, or would you stay in Finland?
I would most definitely quit my current job. As for the means of using the money, I would have to ask YHWH how he wants it to be used. The possibilities are infinite. Examples include buying land, building a house, donating for a mission organization or a particular mission, investing, starting a business (though I haven't got a business plan whatsoever), moving to another country, and so on.
EDIT: I realized you did not ask "with your money", but "with your time".
Yes, I would quit my current job, because it is taking an excess of 8 hours of my time each day. I am not really sure what I would do with all of the excess of time, considering that many people I could meet with do be at work at days. Optimistically, I would spend much time in God's presence -- reading the Bible and praying -- and doing those translation projects and writing articles that I never somehow seem to get around to actually doing -- but in practice, I am not so sure how that would work out. I guess there's some blessing in this work, too, after all.
From the biblical perspective, the world is in God's hands, and human deduction of the world is but a waste of time, for humans who lack the guidance of God's spirit, are easily misdirected by devil spirits ― the human being near the bottom of the intelligence meter in the grand scale of things.
I disagree, human deduction of the world is in the nature of human beings. If it were not, why would God have given us curiosity? Why is it against God to examine His creation? Obviously, it's not, the Vatican has scientists on staff.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Well, I tried my best to formulate my thoughts clearly without taking too much time. I've decided not to try again because I even have trouble expressing those thoughts in my mother tongue. I haven't reread my post, but it isn't hogwash. I have never claimed any of what I've written to be true, I just said it was possible. I've explained it only very badly though and hoped people would understand it anyway. Maybe I've even worded something so that it's more probable to misunderstand than to actually get what I mean.
I don't think it's important enough to reformulate. All I was saying (or merely trying to say) was essentially that there are other explainations for striking evidence (including very personal experience) that any kind of religious belief is true. And there's no way to tell which of those possibilities is the 'real' or 'true' one for a human being at the point of total disbelieve, which I consider to be the only valid starting point for this kind of discussions.
I disagree, human deduction of the world is in the nature of human beings. If it were not, why would God have given us curiosity? Why is it against God to examine His creation? Obviously, it's not, the Vatican has scientists on staff.
Hmm, I admit the possibility that I did not completely and unambiguously express what was on my mind.
God gave us a mind for understanding, yes.
It is definitely not a sin to study the world around us. That way, we can appreciate YHWH's greatness better :)
The part of Bible that talks about foolishness is about the human working separately from God -- without his lead, without his guiding. And that is a foolishness.
That's when you get something like Nietszche's writings.
If you follow the path of the Bible/YHWH you won't learn to abuse people for your own good. I think this is vital to reaching your goals though because we live in a world where lots of others act selfishly and this gives them certain advantages.
That's the main reason why I think it's not good if people totally and strictly follow the Bible. I think to bring good change to this world you have to also do some necessary evil. If you don't the changes are very likely to be minimal. To get the power to change the system you have to take advantage of the system first. That's my kind of sad view at least. :(
