Posted: 2/19/2010 10:01 PM
Post subject: WIP - Shinobi Legions (X)
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fruitbane
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Joined: 3/28/2005
Posts: 216
OK, so initial testing with yabuase seems to indicate (for the 1st level, anyway) that Shinobi Legions runs great. This would be an excellent TAS title given the variety of moves available to the player. I'm going to start messing around with it, but I've been horrible so far at my TAS attempts (short attention span, issues with patience). Hopefully what I come up with will inspire others.
Posted: 2/22/2010 6:15 AM
(Edited: 2/22/2010 10:13 PM)
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fruitbane
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Joined: 3/28/2005
Posts: 216
OK, so I've completed a trial run of level 1. Here's what I've learned about the game in general thus far.
    There's a hair of input delay so you can't see right away what your character is doing, so it's important to recognize how many frames of animation are in each pose of things like landing from stalled jump and so forth. Any kind of attack on the ground pretty much stops forward momentum. You can block, and use attacks to hit shuriken back at enemies, but blocking makes you move really slowly and, well, attacking stops you cold. You can attack in a jump and keep moving forward, but... Jumping adds a little delay, but is often necessary to attain platforms or dodge attacks. Falling from a ledge also adds a little delay, but less than from a jump. Double jumping adds additional delay but is sometimes worth it for the extra height or as an additional dodge tactic when surrounded by shuriken-throwing ninja. You can run, which is much faster than walking. When you land from a regular jump you keep running. When you run and drop off a ledge or platform you keep running. If you double jump you keep running. If you attack in a double-jump you stop running. If you attack in a regular jump while running you stop running when you land _IF_ you hit a shuriken with your sword with the attack. If you don't hit a shuriken you can often keep running when you land without having to restart the run. Best strategy? Run. Run like hell. And jump only to dodge or where necessary to proceed. Only attack in your jump where necessary to proceed. Getting hit knocks you AND stops you cold - you are frozen a few frames and must then restart the run, which delays another couple frames. Getting hit strikes me as something to avoid at all costs.
Here's my strategy for level 1.
    Run. Most shuriken must be jumped to avoid. I cut a few jumps entertainingly close, but in general I was mostly going for speed (and convenience), so on a number of occasions I jumped early. I suppose the ideal way to do this would be to jump at the last second wherever possibly for maximum entertainment, but I think the game moves quickly enough there won't be a lack of entertainment. Where there are multiple enemies simply evading all the flying shuriken with minimal jumps is higher priority than cutting is as close as possible for sure. Some jumps were necessary to avoid walls. I only attacked in one spot in the level. I needed to perform several attacks in rapid succession to take out a shuriken and two samurai who cannot otherwise be passed without damage. On the boss I tried to get in as many hits as possible before having to wait through his attacks, during which he is immune. In most cases I hit him on the first vulnerable frame, but there are several hits which could maybe see a little improvement. The biggest problem involves timing the jumps so that I land appropriately to jump again in time to hit him. Overall, I think a few frames could be shaved from the level and from the boss fight by someone more patient than me, but the first level is, overall, relatively uncomplicated, so I achieved relatively strong gains relatively quickly. Also, my TAS habits are such that I really wish I had like 50 save state slots. 10 just aren't gonna do it. I'm too impatient to re-do vast portions because of minor frame gains. Ugh! But I'll try and stay with it. Here's the movie file @Filedropper: http://www.filedropper.com/tryagain_2 Add'l info: Used Sega_100 bios file and SHINOBI LEGIONS (U) image file.
Posted: 2/22/2010 8:19 PM
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Molotov
Joined: 5/30/2006
Posts: 39
Good to see someone take interest in this game. Alucard posted some speed run attempts at different stages in this game, so you may want to check them out and take some ideas: Stage 1 Stage 2 Stage 3 Stage 4 Have you considered using some of the special moves for this run? Particularly, the roll (up, up-left/right, left/right?). From what I remember, you can roll right through stuff, so it may be useful for speed. At the very least, it would be cool to use in boss fights for style points when dodging. The other one that comes to mind was the stab attack (left or right + attack). Not useful for speed, but maybe you could add it in there as a way to create some variety in your attacks (during the elevator sequence, for sure)? I think it only does normal slash damage though, sadly.
Posted: 2/22/2010 10:12 PM
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fruitbane
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Joined: 3/28/2005
Posts: 216
I've only really messed with the first level so far, and it's really straightforward. This run has a faster boss (and it doesn't appear to be a TAS) but I think my approach to the level is faster. Not sure, though. I'd need frame counts to be certain. I definitely start into the game faster. See my movie file for more information. Also, I'm playing on hard with no shuriken.
Posted: 2/23/2010 12:00 AM
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fruitbane
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Joined: 3/28/2005
Posts: 216
OK, some new analysis of this game and a progress update. Aerial speed, either from jumping, high jumping, double/spin jumping, or falling, is slower than running along the ground, so max movement time should take place in a run attached to the ground. There's a delay when jumping of a few frames, and a slight delay when beginning the double/spin jump. If a long or spin jump can help avoid doing two regular jumps, the additional time in the air appears (I haven't measured) to more than make up for the delay of launching an additional jump and spending two regular jumps in the air. For example, jumping a shuriken with a regular jump might be fine, but if I also have to jump the next guy right after him I would rather try extending my air time with a high or spin jump and see if I can get the second (or even third) guy to throw with poor aim, negating the need to do a second jump altogether. I did some playing around and I'm not 100% certain what determines whether you stop or keep running when you hit the ground after a jump. I thought I had it but I was wrong. In my first video I managed to use air attacks to hit two samurai and keep on running. I was not able to finagle that same trick in other areas of the level against ninjas when simply playing around. In the second video I do much better jumping and path selection, because I lose over 300 frames when I stop to get the sword power up (you stop running and there's a screen-filling animation), yet I'm only behind a net 50 or so frames going into the boss. I kill the boss almost 400 frames faster with the sword power up, making the 300+ frame loss from getting the sword worth it. There is a little awkwardness when getting the sword that I'm not sure how to deal with, but I may see if I can shorten the delay in the lead up to the powerup. Here's the second movie file. Note that it has the same name, so rename your original. http://www.filedropper.com/tryagain_3
Posted: 2/25/2010 10:35 PM
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fruitbane
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Joined: 3/28/2005
Posts: 216
Advancement on this is slow. Any advice is welcome. I've got a revised video of the first level but I'm still trying to speed it up, especially the boss. I've determined how soon I can first hit the boss and how long the boss's period of immunity is, but now that I've discovered that I can't keep him from going into a long, time consuming attack during which he is immune. The boss battle is still a little faster, I think, than the original one, but if I could eliminate that massive attack I could take him out quicker still.
Posted: 6/9/2010 9:55 PM
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fruitbane
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Joined: 3/28/2005
Posts: 216
I haven't revisited this just yet. Motivation and time haven't been on my side, especially since sometimes when I redo things they seem to get slower, something I don't completely understand, since I'm not down with memory watching. I should note that I am completely unable to make a movie file that doesn't stutter for posting on something like YouTube, meaning for folks to follow along they'll have to run the movie file in the emulator with the ISO directly.