People mention this now and then on the forums, so I thought I should make it official. Everybody knows the reasons, I'm pretty sure, but anyway...
Let's see if he fits into the description of a Judge:
[Does Nach] have TAS experience and at least 8 published movies?
Obviously he doesn't.
Added to all that, there's the trolling aspect, like how he loves to draw all the attention to him with each judging ("Look at me! Only I can judge so fast a Megaman game because I'm the best player in the world." or "I will reject this game because I know what's good and you all don't.") or like when he just wants to be funny with a rejection or something, ignoring all the hard work other people has put into a TAS (because he has never made one and he doesn't know how it feels.)
You can also discuss on this thread if you don't want him administrating the site anymore.
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
One thing that has come to my attention is the amount of infrastructure work that Nach puts into the site, that goes largely unnoticed by the community. While, on a personal level, I'm not a fan of Nach, or his methodologies, I understand many of his decisions.
An additional note, I was given the impression that it was the opinion of many higher-ups that the Chess movie should be rejected. However, it falls on Nach's head to be the unpopular judge, and reject it. He serves a purpose, and does his job well. I've yet to see him reject a movie for any actual trolling purpose. As an aside, I fail to see how him accepting a Mega Man movie that is a clear improvement over a published movie is a problem. Yes, the arrogant tone is silly, but, it isn't negatively impacting the site.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
I see no reason why Nach should stop doing it. If he started doing something bad, then we could talk, but here? He hasn't done anything wrong enough.
Sure, he accidentally took down the site for a few hours by not properly nicing a compile on the server. But is that enough to consider removing him? Definitely not.
Well, I feel he has already started doing something (judging) bad. Also, a lot of people has complained in the movies he has judged, even those whose movie he accepted (too fast).
If he's just the "unpopular judge" because of what DarkKobold mentioned, that's OK, I guess... I should propose a new and different judging system, then; and one that can satisfy even the oldest members, or we'll never change this.
DarkKobold wrote:
As an aside, I fail to see how him accepting a Mega Man movie that is a clear improvement over a published movie is a problem.
Yeah, that isn't a problem. But I'm afraid that, considering his reasons for accepting that fast ("FIRST!!111111111111 Because I'm the best MM player ever!!111"), he might not be judging as good as a real judge.
He also recently rejected a movie really fast because it was "obsoleted" by another submission, when that other submission hadn't been judged yet, and it could have been run in PAL mode, used illegal passwords or cheats, be more boring or whatever. And, considering that the new submission was made by Kyman, it could easily have been canceled a few seconds later, like what Kyman already did with Clue for the SNES (one of the silliest episodes in the history of the website, in my opinion. We didn't only miss a great TAS, but also no one can ever submit a TAS of that game again.)
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Dear mz,
I canceled the digger run because of improvements that should be submitted in a few days.
I canceled the Clue run because it was going to end up in the gruefood anyways (I remember adelikat saying this to me on irc).
I would also appreciate it if you would explain why you dislike me, because it seems you go after me at any opportunity you can get, and I have never done anything to you.
Just curious.
Also I think Nach should be given a break for all of the hard work he does.
EDIT: Nach also does have a lot of TASing experience, he just hasn't submitted anything.
Whenever he does something good, everyone thinks adelikat did it, and whenever something bad happens everyone blames nach.
That's why I feel for him.
I canceled the Clue run because it was going to end up in the gruefood anyways (I remember adelikat saying this to me on irc).
Yours had 14 Yes votes and only 4 No votes, and the previous one had 10 Yes votes and only 3 No votes... And it was going to be rejected... Awesome. :D Someone should hack a Mario sprite into the game.
Kyman wrote:
I would also appreciate it if you would explain why you dislike me
I don't like what you did with Clue (and with Feasel & Oguz...) but I don't dislike you; sorry for always mentioning you. I'm pretty sure I'll never win any friends around here anyway. :P
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
He also recently rejected a movie really fast because it was "obsoleted" by another submission, when that other submission hadn't been judged yet, and it could have been run in PAL mode, used illegal passwords or cheats, be more boring or whatever.
Kyman's run was submitted at 15:12. Nitrogenesis's run was rejected at 15:58. That gave him 46 minutes to watch 8 minutes of videos, to verify integrity, judge changes in entertainment, etc. If he had already watched nitrogenesis's run, then he had 46 minutes to watch 4 minutes of video. How long should one take to watch 4 minutes of video?
mz wrote:
And, considering that the new submission was made by Kyman, it could easily have been canceled a few seconds later, like what Kyman already did with Clue for the SNES (one of the silliest episodes in the history of the website, in my opinion. We didn't only miss a great TAS, but also no one can ever submit a TAS of that game again.)
Kyman wrote:
Cancelled because of a few seconds of improvements, will submit with a co-author soon.
That sounds as good of a reason as any to cancel a run. Additionally, there is absolutely NOTHING that prevents someone from submitting a Clue run. Go ahead, make one, and submit it. No guarantee on the outcome, but don't pretend Kyman's action prevent a run from being submitted.
mz, you have already stated, numerous times, that you dislike the way judging works on this website. That has been noted. It isn't going to change. Sorry.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
While I can agree that Nach has occasionally rejected movies too quickly, I can't name an occasion when the judging consensus has not come to agree with his decision on the matter.
Still, it would be more conducive to community morale if there were more time given for people to state and argue their sides. I don't think that Nach should stop judging, but it might be worthwhile to set a minimum period before rejection on movies that do not clearly violate an established rule. (e.g. "aims for fastest time" runs that are slower than the published version, or a real-time speedrun).
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
How long should one take to watch 4 minutes of video?
Considering that some runs take several months to judge, I would guess it's not just a few minutes. Especially for someone who has no experience at all with real TASing.
DarkKobold wrote:
That sounds as good of a reason as any to cancel a run.
I never complained about the reason of that cancel.
DarkKobold wrote:
Additionally, there is absolutely NOTHING that prevents someone from submitting a Clue run.
Except that no one has found a faster way (probably there isn't any) to beat it, and I can't just submit the same input of Kyman under my name.
DarkKobold wrote:
mz, you have already stated, numerous times, that you dislike the way judging works on this website. That has been noted. It isn't going to change.
Alright.
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Now, maybe I've missed something, but I don't recall Nach doing anything that is concretely wrong.
Sure, you may not like his methods or the way he acts, that may be the case with everyone, but strip him from his judge powers?
I agree mostly with mz. I have also heard other people being upset with the way Nach judges/acts. About the judge criteria, well, I don't have 8 published movies either.
>mz, you have already stated, numerous times, that you dislike the way judging works on this website. That has been noted. It isn't going to change. Sorry.
It's probably impossible to come up with a system which everyone likes. That being said, the judging system it has already been changed once (to the system we have now), so I don't see why it couldn't change again if someone has a good idea how we could do it better.
(If you do, put that in a separate topic.)
I canceled the Clue run because it was going to end up in the gruefood anyways (I remember adelikat saying this to me on irc).
Yours had 14 Yes votes and only 4 No votes, and the previous one had 10 Yes votes and only 3 No votes... And it was going to be rejected... Awesome. :D Someone should hack a Mario sprite into the game.
It's been said many times in the past that the judges are not required to obey or even acknowledge the votes that are cast. They are general guidelines to how the TASing audience feels about the movie, nothing more.
Considering that some runs take several months to judge, I would guess it's not just a few minutes. Especially for someone who has no experience at all with real TASing.
Didn't Kyman say that Nach has significant TASing experience, just no published TASes with his name on them? As for the time needed to judge a run, that depends entirely on the complexity of the run and the run's history. Judging a new submission of an hours-long RPG with many difficult-to-quantify tradeoffs (do I spend 500 frames here picking up a new weapon that might save three rounds vs. this enemy I have to fight later?) is far more difficult than judging an improvement to a four-minute run whose predecessor was already en route to being accepted. Alternately, judging a Super Metroid improvement takes months because the judges have to wait until all the fanboys have finished their little flamewar. ;)
My personal opinion is that Nach is abrasive, probably unnecessarily so, but not to the point that he should be punished for it. And generally when he's taking a dig at you, he's doing so intelligently. I can appreciate a smart troll.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Wow, there's already a topic for this? I guess I should be vocal then.
DarkKobold wrote:
One thing that has come to my attention is the amount of infrastructure work that Nach puts into the site, that goes largely unnoticed by the community.
henke37 wrote:
But is that enough to consider removing him? Definitely not.
scrimpeh wrote:
Sure, you may not like his methods or the way he acts, that may be the case with everyone, but strip him from his judge powers?
Derakon wrote:
My personal opinion is that Nach is abrasive, probably unnecessarily so, but not to the point that he should be punished for it.
Sorry if I disrupt your argument, but it looks like you guys consider judging to be a privilege of sorts?.. One that is granted as a reward for hard work on the site, including aspects that have nothing to do with playing games?
Sorry, but it's just a task, like any other task at the site, and should be treated as one. You're either suited for it or you aren't. If you're suited for one task, it doesn't mean you're equally suited for another. This is really, really simple, and there's nothing personal with that, no grudges or crucifictions involved. Nach is a good coder, he has his merits in that field that anybody knowledgeable enough admits, but he's still a poor judge, so I don't see why he should continue doing this. Moreover, there never was a reason for him to be a judge in the first place, so you can't "punish" him by "demoting" him back to an admin (now doesn't that sound funny).
DarkKobold wrote:
However, it falls on Nach's head to be the unpopular judge, and reject it. He serves a purpose, and does his job well.
I don't see how we need a "scapegoat judge", the very notion seems absurd. You are an author. What would you want to see from the person who appraises the fruit of your labor? You want them to be competent, and you want their competence to show either by documented experience or the amount of help and constructive criticism they're providing to other authors, right? You probably want this person to be easy to communicate with, one that would be able to tell you what you've done wrong without mockery or disguising personal preference with the more arbitrary rules? You don't want your work to be judged by somebody who doesn't fit the description but is easy to hate, do you? Cause that's just disrespectful.
I guess I just described a perfect judge that doesn't exist, but in my opinion, Nach barely fits any of the aspects anyway. Moreover, I'm sure we have quite enough judges to take on the submission rate without much pressing.
I would have listed all the submissions where I thought Nach has done inappropriately as a judge, but I'm not writing a log of his mishaps, and asking that from my memory would be too much. I do remember telling both Nach and adelikat on a number of occasions that I didn't see a reason for the former to be a judge, while I did see the reasons why he should not.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I don't see how we need a "scapegoat judge", the very notion seems absurd. You are an author. What would you want to see from the person who appraises the fruit of your labor? You want them to be competent, and you want their competence to show either by documented experience or the amount of help and constructive criticism they're providing to other authors, right? You probably want this person to be easy to communicate with, one that would be able to tell you what you've done wrong without mockery or disguising personal preference with the more arbitrary rules? You don't want your work to be judged by somebody who doesn't fit the description but is easy to hate, do you? Cause that's just disrespectful.
You know, I hadn't thought from the 'author's perspective.' I'd really only thought from the judge/community perspective... Obviously, whenever there is a difficult or unpopular decision to be made, some people hold a grudge a very long time, people who didn't even make the run.
You raise a good point, Nach rejecting runs is sort of an insult.
That said, this is (now) Nach's and adelikat's site. As such, they make the decisions as to who can judge and who can't. At best, all that can be done is to ask Nach not to judge.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
While I can agree that Nach has occasionally rejected movies too quickly, I can't name an occasion when the judging consensus has not come to agree with his decision on the matter.
GlitchMan's NES Mega Man 4 in 34:00.02
You don't see everyday a thread where almost every other judge and a lot of well-known TASers complain about a single rejection. He never even said "sorry", he only hid himself behind that new rule created just for his huge mistake.
All that thread is awesome by the way:
Nach wrote:
I was upset that I was using this excellent run as a guinea pig to foster some needed rule changing
DarkKobold wrote:
It should be mentioned that it isnt persaverence that got this movie published. It is coincidental that the rules needed changing with this movie.
Wow...
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Still, it would be more conducive to community morale if there were more time given for people to state and argue their sides. I don't think that Nach should stop judging, but it might be worthwhile to set a minimum period before rejection on movies that do not clearly violate an established rule. (e.g. "aims for fastest time" runs that are slower than the published version, or a real-time speedrun).
In fact, I think that TAS authors should be given the opportunity to reply to any objections that viewers or even judges have against their submission, before it gets rejected. There might be a reason why the TAS seems to do something badly or break some rule, and the author should be given the opportunity to explain himself (if he didn't think of doing it in the submission text).
In fact, I think that TAS authors should be given the opportunity to reply to any objections that viewers or even judges have against their submission, before it gets rejected. There might be a reason why the TAS seems to do something badly or break some rule, and the author should be given the opportunity to explain himself (if he didn't think of doing it in the submission text).
