The Legend of Zelda "Swordless" (1st Quest)

  • aims for fastest time
  • takes damage to save time
  • abuses programming errors
  • manipulates luck
  • uses a game restart sequence
  • no deaths
  • no predefined saves
  • genre: adventure
  • uses emulator fceu 0.98.28
This run is my first submission to TASvideos and I believe the first of its kind.
This is one of my favorite all-time NES games. If you are unfamiliar with this game you can refer to Baxter and Morrison's 2nd quest movie submission notes for a brief recap of the plot here: #2091: Baxter & Morrison's NES The Legend of Zelda "2nd quest" in 24:59.83
You can also find a highly in-depth description of enemy drops, enemy movement, gameplay techniques, link's movement, and a description of the screen scroll glitch in those same submission notes.
This is technically not a "swordless" run for the obvious reason that you have to collect one of the three swords in order to hit Ganon and complete the game. There has been lots of discussion in the forums as to what the best way to end a run of this type would be. To my knowledge the point of this site is for people to show off game "completion" in the least amount of frames. Without collecting a sword, game completion is not possible. So instead of a freezing glitch, dying on Ganon, or stopping the movie when you enter Ganon's room, I chose to collect the sword and kill Ganon. Note that I only get the sword after acquiring all 8 peices of the triforce, and do not use it until the fight with Ganon.

A Few Quirks:

There are a few things I'd like to point out about my route, the screen scroll glitch, and enemy manipulations/drops.

Route:

First off, I was asked in the forums after I posted my WIP about why I use the gambling game more than the published 1st quest any %. In that run they only use the gambling game twice and get the rest of their rupees from enemy drops and a 100 rupee secret to everyone room on the way to level 8.
When I started attempting this run I noticed that if you get the candle on the way to level 4, when you pick up the ladder there and reset, the game for some unknown reason sets your item to the candle on restart. This of course is suboptimal since you don't need the candle until the 100 rupee secret room (if you plan on getting this) or level 8, and it forces you to access the menu to switch back to the bombs. After some testing I found that it is slightly faster to get the candle later (skipping the 100 rupees) since there's a candle room on the way to level 8. So basically you're trading 2 gamble screens for 1 menu screen and the 100 rupee secret, also allowing you to screen scroll glitch past the first candle room and the rupee secret. Furthermore, getting the candle near level 8 allows you to move up/right and down/left respectively, allowing a few frames to be saved by zig-zagging.
You may also wonder why I dont ever use the whistle to warp to level 3 to go to levels 4 and 7, and to level 1 when going to level 9. If going to level 7 before completing level 4 it is in fact faster to use the whistle, but with the screen scroll glitch it makes it optimal to do level 4 first and then over to level 7 by use of the glitch. Additionally I have to reset to get the wooden sword anyway, so I dont have to worry about walking 1 screen away from level 7 to use the whistle.
As for not using the whistle to go to level 1 after I pick up the wooden sword. In the any% they whistle from level 6 to 1, but I obviously have a different route and using the whistle after getting the wooden sword is much slower than just screen scroll glitch walking up past level 1.

Screen Scroll Glitch:

There are some places in the overworld where I do the glitch and I move in a seemingly suboptimal way. This only happens when moving north/south through the black portion at the top of the screen. For some reason if there's bushes or rocks at the top of the screen they are offset in some places by about a block worth of movement. For example, while on the way to get the 30 rupees in the beginning of the run, when screen scrolling at the first forest screen after the beach area, it looks like you may be able to hug the bushes on the right and perform the glitch there. This is not so because the bushes are offset slightly. This is the reason you see me enter the bottom of the screen in the middle, come out of the top half a block to the left, and have to go back to the right before i reenter from the top and move on. This happens a few times during the run and may look a bit strange.

Enemy Drops:

Some dungeon rooms again may seem suboptimal, and I'm sure a few frames could probably be saved here and there (although this would ultimately change the entire run from there on out which may or may not be desireable). You may see me kill some enemies first when it looked like i could have hit/killed more with the same bomb. Most of the time this is because i need to get a certain drop from a certain enemy and if I were to kill any other enemies first it would change the value of $052A thus changing the type of drop. An example of this would be in level 7 when entering the locked door room with 3 bats and 3 blue boomerang baddies, I drop 2 consecutive bombs to kill 2 of the 3 blue boomerangers where i could have killed some bats as well or even all 6 enemies with the 2 bombs. This is misleading because killing any of the bats before i killed the boomerangers would not have allowed me to get a bomb drop there. I tried to prevent this from happening as much as possible but unfortunately it does a few times.

Enemy Manipulations:

Since this is a swordless run it would seem unfair to compare dungeon room completion times to the any% runs. There is no sword present which makes it considerably harder to complete rooms in as timely a fashion (especially blue darknut rooms), because without the sword you can not do things like lay a bomb/swing your sword at the same time (possibly setting up enemies in a group) and swing your sword when the bomb explodes hitting them with both and doing extra damage (cutting down on enemy cooldown and bomb usage).

The Route:

As you can imagine the route plan for a swordless run is drastically different from an any% since you can only hit the dragon bosses of level 4 and 8 with the wand, and to get that you must get the ladder from level 4. With that in mind I believe that the route is pretty much fully optomized.
  • get 30 rupees from the friendly enemy
  • reset
  • get bombs
  • reset
  • use left over rupees for gambling
  • level 3 triforce
  • raft
  • save and continue
  • ladder
  • save and continue
  • bow
  • level 1 triforce
  • wand
  • level 6 triforce
  • reset
  • candle on the way to level 8
  • level 8 triforce
  • level 2 triforce
  • meat
  • whistle
  • level 5 triforce
  • reset
  • level 4 triforce
  • level 7 triforce
  • reset
  • wooden sword
  • reset
  • silver arrows
  • Ganon/Zelda

Credits:

I would like to thank Phil, Baxter, and Morrison for their 1st and 2nd quest any% runs and submission texts. Without these this run would never have been possible. And also Baxter again for his feedback and encouragement in pm's and the forums early on. A special thanks goes out to LordTom for responding to my posts recently. It seemed like people had lost interest in this run considering noone really responded to my posted WIP and additional comments. Your responses and encouragement were very timely, without which i may have put off finishing this run for awhile or possibly indefinately. I hope everyone enjoys the run whether published or not. Its been a long time coming!

adelikat: Claimined for judging. I think this submission has implications for the site as a whole so I will handle it. Expect a verdict in the upcoming days.

adelikat: Accepting for publication. Verdict

Aktan: Processing as "Swordless Challenge"

FractalFusion: Replaced movie to change rerecord count to 12000, which is closer to the number of actual rerecords done.

adelikat: Replace submission file with .fm2 file

Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
Voting yes while watching in another window. Maybe for the final encode it would be a good idea to add some text at the beginning saying "HEY! I GET THE SWORD AT THE END! TRY NOT TO GET TOO UPSET ABOUT IT" so that people don't feel like, ripped off or whatever? I don't really understand that position in the first place, but it seems easy enough to alleviate. btw, the mp4 encode crashed safari at the same point very early in the run (in the middle of I think the 4th or 5th screen?). This is very likely to be Safari's quicktime plugin's fault and not the encode's, though.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
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Personman wrote:
Maybe for the final encode it would be a good idea to add some text at the beginning saying "HEY! I GET THE SWORD AT THE END! TRY NOT TO GET TOO UPSET ABOUT IT" so that people don't feel like, ripped off or whatever?
I could see this being helpful, and at the very least should be mentioned in the description if this gets published.
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Oh, you know what they say. The best kind of prize is a surprise!
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Category: - Mostly swordless? - Swordless... sort of? - Sword-lite? - Swords, swords, swords... won't show you them, except in the end? It is a bit compromised. Like calling the bygone 1-star Mario64 movie a starless movie, or mostly starless... An accomplishment and a challenge, no doubt.
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Bisqwit wrote:
Category: - Mostly swordless? - Swordless... sort of? - Sword-lite? - Swords, swords, swords... won't show you them, except in the end? It is a bit compromised. An accomplishment and a challenge, no doubt.
Out of curiosity how would you classify the "pacifist" contra run? Category: -Mostly pacifist? -Pacifist... sort of? -Abhors violence but will kill if necessary? or the SMB 100%? Category: -Almost 100%? -100% except for those damn auto-scrollers? -99%? I think adelikat clarified that the swordless challenge is to be taken in context and elaborated by pointless boy by saying that certain words have certain meanings in certain contexts. The two examples I used are runs where, not exactly what the title says they are, were accepted regardless based on their entertainment value and contribution to, and enhancement of the site. Edit: Imo this is a clear case of semantics.
Player (50)
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If this indeed turns out to be such a problem I could quite easily remake the end w/o the sword and end the movie with one of the other suggestions in the thread. I thought that completing the game, albeit making the title literally false, was the best way to end the movie.
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Aktan wrote:
Off how and on what player?
Viewed it in Firefox and the sound desynced shortly into play. It must've just been my settings if it's worked for other people, so never mind.
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adelikat
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Seems that the biggest complaint about this run is the obtaining of the sword. Everyone who thinks this, what if he didn't get it and thus didn't complete the game? Would that make it more acceptable? there are two options for this: 1) Get to ganon's room with no sword and die, then end. 2) Get to ganon's room with no sword, and then execute a glitch that freezes the game, no death, no game completion if completing the game is more important there are two more options 3) get to ganon's room with no sword, and die. Then grab a sword and go pwn him and save hyrule 4) get the sword along the way to the final dungeon in order to not have to die and do it all over again. This is what the author chose to do. I personally would have went with #2 But I agree with Lord Tom that any one of these has their pros and cons and shouldn't really affect the true nature of the TAS. Like the author said, he could easily do #1 or #2 if the viewers decide that is more logical to them.
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I would have done #3, but without death if possible! Oh yeah, you probably can't leave his room without dying/resetting, huh?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
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#5: Run a Lua script that puts the sword in the inventory when entering Ganon's room. Since the "Swordless" run is technically over at that point, you can say that the "Swordless" run was successfully completed without picking up the sword, and killing Ganon and ending the game is technically an extra provided for entertainment purposes. Pause the encoded movie and place a disclaimer on the screen when this happens, kill Ganon, finish the game. But honestly, arguing over these semantics is downright silly. Not using the sword is not using the sword, and killing Ganon after the movie's established goal is already completed is fine by me. Without having seen the movie yet, I completely agree with the goal and method taken, and I will most likely vote yes after having seen it.
adelikat
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The argument that hasn't been presented yet is that if the game can't be completed with the given restriction, what is the point? How would the walkathon have been received if there was one place where b was needed and it only used it then? What if the small only mario run couldn't beat the game without a mushroom for just one room, so he got the mushroom then and immediately lost it? Is the walkathon quest completed upon getting to the ledge you can't get past?
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Acheron86 wrote:
Viewed it in Firefox and the sound desynced shortly into play. It must've just been my settings if it's worked for other people, so never mind.
Oh, yea Firefox is not a perfect MP4 player.
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I think the answer to that question is extremely circumstantial. If you were doing a "Swordless" run which required the sword to be used 6 times throughout the movie, I can see how that would be considered pointless. But since in this movie, you only need the sword to end the game, then you could make the case easily that watching the first 26:40 as a novelty run is entertaining, even though the last :03 breaks the rule. Then again, in either case, simply re-tag the movie from "swordless" to "uses the sword as little as possible" and it might clarify the movie's position. It also might serve as a subversion of expectation to new viewers who watch the movie expecting the sword to be used only ten or so times, and then are surprised to see it used only once at the movie's end.
Warepire
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Came around to watch this and I say it is very good and I like the concept of using the sword only where the game forces you to do so. Everything looks well planned and well executed as well. I remember when I played this on my NES and made link screen warp to the over world map area, I got so scared and I thought I had broken the game :P (I was only 9) Yes vote.
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Once again I refer to the "pacifist" contra run and smb3 100% runs. Should the names of those movies respectively be "kills enemies only when needed to proceed", or "completes every level unless it's unappealing to watch in TAS form or otherwise a bit out of the way?" I doubt these titles would have been well received by the community as a whole. I am willing to look past these discrepancies as did the community/judges when these runs were submitted. I don't see how this is any different.
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I'd just like to point out (and this isn't directed solely at jprofit) that we don't have an SMB3 100% run. We have an SMB3 warpless run, which is entirely different. And now, back to your regularly scheduled argument^Wdiscussion.
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Derakon wrote:
I'd just like to point out (and this isn't directed solely at jprofit) that we don't have an SMB3 100% run. We have an SMB3 warpless run, which is entirely different. And now, back to your regularly scheduled argument^Wdiscussion.
PWND. Yet this still leaves the precedent set by "pacifist" contra. And if I were to do a little digging (which I just may) I'm sure I could find other runs on the site that don't adhere 100% completely and literally with their respective titles.
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In any event, this will be my last post in this thread unless a direct question is asked of me. I believe I have adequately explained my reasons as to why I think this is a publishable movie, and anything more would most likely frustrate/dishearten me. A final thank you to all those who watched/commented. I leave it up to the judges.
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This is one of those "your mileage may vary", but in my opinion, the term "pacifist" gives you an option of using weapons when you've been cornered and have no choice but to die. It is a matter of choice; it's a philosophy. Philosophies are often defenestrated when survival is in question. Maybe Contra isn't very much about survival, though. Whereas the term "swordless" means "without a sword". If you're labeled "shoeless", but you wear shoes, are you shoeless? Unless the word "swordless" means something completely other than "without a sword". There are words like that in English. As for Adelikat's list, I suggest "5) You're not trying hard enough. Find a way to _complete_ the game without the sword." But seriously, I'm talking here about nomenclature only; not about suggesting anyone to reject this submission.
Personman
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I think that "Minimal Sword Use" is the best title for this category. That lets this submission through uncontroversially, AND makes sure that if anyone ever does come up with a way to kill Ganon without the sword, that run obsoletes this one directly and obviously, since it uses the sword less.
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Heh. Or we could call it a "less sword" run.
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I like this concept, but in the execution I prefer the options where you either freeze the game, or play a "hack" that is basically the same game but that allows you to hit Gannon without the sword. Not that I won't vote this game yes after watching it.
No.
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Bisqwit wrote:
If you're labeled "shoeless", but you wear shoes, are you shoeless?
What if Sneakers O'Toole takes his sneakers off? Is he still Sneakers O'Toole?
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adelikat wrote:
Seems that the biggest complaint about this run is the obtaining of the sword. Everyone who thinks this, what if he didn't get it and thus didn't complete the game? Would that make it more acceptable? there are two options for this: 1) Get to ganon's room with no sword and die, then end. 2) Get to ganon's room with no sword, and then execute a glitch that freezes the game, no death, no game completion if completing the game is more important there are two more options 3) get to ganon's room with no sword, and die. Then grab a sword and go pwn him and save hyrule 4) get the sword along the way to the final dungeon in order to not have to die and do it all over again. This is what the author chose to do. I personally would have went with #2 But I agree with Lord Tom that any one of these has their pros and cons and shouldn't really affect the true nature of the TAS. Like the author said, he could easily do #1 or #2 if the viewers decide that is more logical to them.
Well, personally, the OCD-ness in me loves it the way it is, with fastest game completion. And WHAT is the deal with all you guys! There are plenty of other runs that violate the conditions set forth, like the Ninja Gaiden 2 pacificist run I mentioned before, for example, as well as other pacifist runs in which the boss MUST be killed. It is ludicrous and discriminatory to reject this movie based on having to kill Ganon with a sword. The movie is PERFECT the way it is, and anyone who says otherwise is just nitpicking, uselessly bitching, and looking for something to complain about
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I finally got to watch this thanks to Aktan's encode. Thanks, Aktan! In general, this looked very solid. Nice work! A LoZ TAS is all about the enemy manipulation, and while there were several points at which you had to wait either to get the monsters to cluster together or to get one to move out of your way, generally speaking they behaved themselves and you of course always got the drops you needed at the right time. I'd say this is worthy of a yes vote. :) I have to admit to being disappointed at how long that infernal low-hitpoint beep went on. Though I do think that a good screenshot would be entering level 6 with half a heart, 5 bombs, and not much else. I take it that the bow doesn't work against hydras (boss of levels 4/8)? If it did that'd save getting the wand, though you'd need a fair amount more rupees. I know the submission text says you can only hit them with the wand...just double-checking. :) Given the utility of damage boosting, I have to wonder if it could be worth grabbing one of the closer heart containers to enable more of them. This would of course also require you to regain health more before picking up a Triforce piece, so the extra manipulation required (plus the fact that you only start with 3 full hearts after a restart anyway) might make it not worthwhile. Right before the level-7 boss, you switch to bombs, use your last one to kill some boomerang guys, which switches you to the wand, and then you pick up some bombs from the boomerang guy's corpse. Why not just kill them with the wand? Are the bombs really faster even when the pause screen is taken into account? Random thought: does anyone know how the "tally up your earned money" thing interacts with savefiles? That is, when you get some money, it isn't immediately added to your displayed rupee count; instead, 1 is added per frame (or however fast it is). I noticed that at the 30 rupee secret at the beginning of the game, the game was restarted before the tally finished, and continued working properly after the load. That says to me that either the tally progress is saved in the safefile, or else it's memory that's not cleared when the game is reloaded. The latter case might potentially allow for some abuse by using multiple savefiles, maybe?
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.