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Posted: 4/13/2011 8:39 AM
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sonicpacker
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If you haven't seen it already, here is the channel of an excellent Japanese TASer named Bauru (toyuru2). He has some *extremely* entertaining freeruns with many original ideas in them. http://www.youtube.com/user/toyuru2
https://personalitygrowth.com/entp-myths-stereotypes-misconceptions-cliches-and-tropes-that-are-inaccurate/
Posted: 4/14/2011 9:25 PM
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CoolKirby
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In the thread for mickey & snark & ToT's new 0 star run, some of the comments were saying it hasn't been found yet how to BLJ to the "moat door" and skip BitDW. Is it even possible to BLJ through water? In this single star run, the water seems to pause the BLJ until mickey reaches dry land again, at which point Mario resumes his extremely fast speed.
Posted: 4/14/2011 9:26 PM
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sonicpacker
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CoolKirby wrote:
Is it even possible to BLJ through water?
No. Not without a metal cap.
https://personalitygrowth.com/entp-myths-stereotypes-misconceptions-cliches-and-tropes-that-are-inaccurate/
Posted: 4/15/2011 4:42 PM
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ALAKTORN
He/Him
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Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
what's the moat door? I've never heard of this BitDW skip idea, can someone explain?
Posted: 4/15/2011 5:03 PM
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Inzult
Active player (435)
Joined: 9/27/2004
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NES TAS of 2021
ALAKTORN wrote:
what's the moat door? I've never heard of this BitDW skip idea, can someone explain?
The moat door is the exit point from when you drain the moat to open up the invisible cap stage. The idea is to open said door from the outside to skip the first key. The problem being you can't open the door.
Posted: 4/15/2011 5:17 PM
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ALAKTORN
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Inzult wrote:
ALAKTORN wrote:
what's the moat door? I've never heard of this BitDW skip idea, can someone explain?
The moat door is the exit point from when you drain the moat to open up the invisible cap stage. The idea is to open said door from the outside to skip the first key. The problem being you can't open the door.
oh, that would be incredibly epic, I hope someone finds a way… thanks for the answer
Posted: 4/16/2011 2:58 PM
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CoolKirby
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In the thread I mentioned, Nahoc posted a link to this competition where the goal was to open one of the castle's front doors from inside. Could something like this be used to go through the outside wall and open the moat door from inside? I would test it personally but I've never TASed this game and probably wouldn't be good at it.
Posted: 4/16/2011 4:42 PM
(Edited: 4/16/2011 5:54 PM)
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Weatherton
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I think the problem with that is that even if you could possibly open the door to the mote from behind, that will not have the same result as opening the door from the outside... you would just end up back in the mote.
Current Project: - Mario Kart 64
Posted: 4/16/2011 5:05 PM
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Noob_Irdoh
Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 570
Location: 33°07'41"S, 160°42'04"W
CoolKirby wrote:
Could something like this be used to go through the outside wall and open the moat door from inside? I would test it personally but I've never TASed this game and probably wouldn't be good at it.
I had this same idea once, but I seem to remember it doesn't work, sadly, because there is water also behind the door. I would love to be proven wrong, though.
Posted: 4/16/2011 5:13 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
I thought someone had confirmed that the loading zone isn't even present if the moat hasn't been cleared? Or am I misremembering?
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 4/16/2011 6:15 PM
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sonicpacker
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Ok guys, I'll clear things up. From what I can remember during my own testing, the door *IS* able to be opened if you can manage to get into the walking animation underwater. Testing with a hacked metal cap is not good because you cannot open doors underwater with the cap on. You *can* get behind the door by BLJing like this. However, it has no use as of yet. I have tried testing other weird strategies as well. Once, I can recall setting a warp to enter VCutM before the moat was drained (with Toad's Tool 64), collecting the red coin star, and then being shot out of the regular entry/exit point. Mario was standing underwater on the floor of the moat. Sadly, when the "celebration"/coin count animation ended and I chose "Save and Continue," Mario just shot to the surface of the water in his swimming animation. Basically, the only way this method would be possible is to somehow break the water physics enabling you to walk. There is also one other theory, but I'm not sure how it would turn out. When you have a lot of BLJ speed while entering water, there is *one* frame where Mario is "walking" underwater. Theoretically if you could touch the door on this one frame, Mario may be able to grab it. The only way this could work is by using the slope on the right side of the castle to "walk" into the moat and touch the door.
https://personalitygrowth.com/entp-myths-stereotypes-misconceptions-cliches-and-tropes-that-are-inaccurate/
Posted: 4/17/2011 1:30 PM
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Weatherton
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sonicpacker wrote:
There is also one other theory, but I'm not sure how it would turn out. When you have a lot of BLJ speed while entering water, there is *one* frame where Mario is "walking" underwater. Theoretically if you could touch the door on this one frame, Mario may be able to grab it. The only way this could work is by using the slope on the right side of the castle to "walk" into the moat and touch the door.
Now that sounds promising... do we know whether the game checks to see if it should open the door the first frame possible?
Current Project: - Mario Kart 64
Posted: 4/23/2011 9:02 PM
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TheRealOne
Joined: 12/11/2009
Posts: 19
Two questions, What will happen if you are able to open that door from the inside? Won't you just get stuck between those two inside/outside rooms? Just like when you glitch through the roof to get behind the main castle door? When you open the door you are stuck in the entry area to the castle. Has anyone tried deleting the water behind the moat door and then seeing what happens when you open it from the inside? Just to see what will actually happen. It would suck going through all of the trouble to get a blj where you touch the door the frame you are walking.
Posted: 4/24/2011 2:51 AM
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sonicpacker
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TheRealOne wrote:
When you open the door you are stuck in the entry area to the castle.
You can just jump through the wall to get out.
TheRealOne wrote:
Has anyone tried deleting the water behind the moat door and then seeing what happens when you open it from the inside?
No one said anything about opening it from the back. The theory I stated would only work with the front. Regardless, you cannot get out of that specific "black room of death" to my knowledge (unlike what I said above about the lobby). *Edit* Why am I a "former player" now?
https://personalitygrowth.com/entp-myths-stereotypes-misconceptions-cliches-and-tropes-that-are-inaccurate/
Posted: 4/24/2011 8:04 AM
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MESHUGGAH
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sonicpacker wrote:
Why am I a "former player" now?
You currently have 0 published and 1 obsoleted run, so your "new" player rank is "former player".
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Posted: 4/24/2011 11:36 PM
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mr_roberts_z
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sonicpacker wrote:
*Edit* Why am I a "former player" now?
Welcome to the club. It is so lonely here.
Super Mario 64 TASes and stuff.
Posted: 4/26/2011 11:46 PM
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TheRealOne
Joined: 12/11/2009
Posts: 19
sonicpacker wrote:
TheRealOne wrote:
Has anyone tried deleting the water behind the moat door and then seeing what happens when you open it from the inside?
No one said anything about opening it from the back. The theory I stated would only work with the front. Regardless, you cannot get out of that specific "black room of death" to my knowledge (unlike what I said above about the lobby).
Wait I am confused. The moat door is locked from the outside until you get in to the basement and drain the water by stomping on the too pillars. So to my understanding, to skip the first bowser if you can some how get the moat door to open you would end up inside the basement. Thus skipping the first bowser. I thought that the idea is that you would blj from somewhere and get behind the moat door. You would have to make it so that the frame you got behind the door you open it because there is only 1 frame where mario is walking under water. Then once the door is opened from the inside you would be be the "black room of death" on the outside of the castle right? This is where I am confused... would you then go back through the door and in to the room of death on in the basement, but it won't have water in it? Obviously I am understanding it wrong. Just looking for some clarification.
Posted: 4/27/2011 5:16 AM
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sonicpacker
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TheRealOne wrote:
Then once the door is opened from the inside you would be be the "black room of death" on the outside of the castle right? This is where I am confused... would you then go back through the door and in to the room of death on in the basement, but it won't have water in it? Obviously I am understanding it wrong. Just looking for some clarification.
You would BLJ and be right in FRONT of the door for one frame, then open it and just walk through. Once through that door, you will be standing underwater and on the first frame of movement, Mario will be shot to the top in his swimming animation. There would be no reason to go into either of the BRoD's.
https://personalitygrowth.com/entp-myths-stereotypes-misconceptions-cliches-and-tropes-that-are-inaccurate/
Posted: 4/27/2011 8:28 PM
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GMan
Joined: 4/7/2008
Posts: 117
TheRealOne wrote:
The moat door is locked from the outside
No it's not, it's just not able to be opened because it's underwater. (According to the games theory, obviously; we'd like that to be otherwise.) But the only thing that changes when you "unlock" it is that the water is gone so you can properly walk into it and open it.
Posted: 4/27/2011 10:55 PM
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DLH112
Joined: 2/22/2006
Posts: 43
has any/can any gamesharky/AR kind of thing be done to walk under water to test this?
Posted: 4/27/2011 11:24 PM
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Anavrin
Joined: 8/18/2009
Posts: 47
Walk underwater GS code A1253DAC 0000 A1253DAE 0000 A1253DB0 0000 A1253DB2 0000 I tried, you can open the door like normal, so I guess the "invisible wall" blocking Mario from entering is only triggered if Mario is in swimming state.
Posted: 4/28/2011 1:01 AM
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sonicpacker
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Anavrin wrote:
Walk underwater GS code A1253DAC 0000 A1253DAE 0000 A1253DB0 0000 A1253DB2 0000 I tried, you can open the door like normal, so I guess the "invisible wall" blocking Mario from entering is only triggered if Mario is in swimming state.
The invisible wall is also there if you use a metal cap code.
https://personalitygrowth.com/entp-myths-stereotypes-misconceptions-cliches-and-tropes-that-are-inaccurate/
Posted: 4/28/2011 1:19 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
I'd guess that means that the devs foresaw the problem of opening doors when underwater and blocked the only way they could think of it happening.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 4/28/2011 1:24 AM
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Weatherton
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So, is there any reason this shouldn't be possible? We have places to BLJ and we know the door can be opened and that you have one frame underwater before you begin swimming. Does the game also check to see if it should open the door in that first frame? If yes, it's just a matter of time...
Current Project: - Mario Kart 64
Posted: 4/28/2011 1:50 AM
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Hophoolio
Joined: 2/19/2010
Posts: 37
With a memory hacking tool like MHS, shouldn't it be easier to test this? you could manipulate the wanted speed from anywhere, and adapt the speed to get in the right position on the right frame?
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