Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
Anybody who even doubts this is demonized and considered a second class citizen.
Oh come on. There are entire political parties making great strides all around Europe right now on that very platform. Based around the very idea of multiculturalism having "failed", and that the left-wing hippie elites are willfully ignorant of this because they don't care about "their own kind". Here in the Netherlands one of the coalition parties subscribes to an Islamic takeover conspiracy theory, and the prime minister spoke about "giving the Netherlands back to the Dutch".
This was the most major political issue of the past decade and probably will be in this one too.
You haven't been paying attention if you still think you're being "demonized" for holding a contrary opinion. Either that, or you're quite happy to be in a position where you can complain and would rather not give it up. But in the real world, this has become as mainstream as anything.
Anybody who even doubts this is demonized and considered a second class citizen.
Oh come on. There are entire political parties making great strides all around Europe right now on that very platform. Based around the very idea of multiculturalism having "failed", and that the left-wing hippie elites are willfully ignorant of this because they don't care about "their own kind". Here in the Netherlands one of the coalition parties subscribes to an Islamic takeover conspiracy theory, and the prime minister spoke about "giving the Netherlands back to the Dutch".
And these are precisely the parties that are widely demonized, vilified and compared to nazis (by both the other parties and the media at large). Very much here in Finland, and I know for a fact that it happens also (and even worse) in Sweden. The equivalent party in the UK is also generally vilified. I don't know what the exact situation is in Denmark.
My apartment is heated so well I have to open my windows when it's –25°C outside just to let excessive heat out. Arnold Governator would cry blood if he heard this.
Ferret Warlord wrote:
There was a spot of mold on my bread this morning. I bought the loaf from a store. Don't they pump store bread full of preservatives to prevent that sort of thing?
Well, for one, it's a good thing they didn't. But if the loaf is supposed to be new, they could as well fail the storage conditions, or the manufacturer just re-used unsold units that were already old/touched by mold in production of the new ones (IIRC, Russian sanitary standards permit up to 5% of "refurbished" material per unit of mass of ingredients for bread baking, but some manufacturers do cheat on this in various ways), which is about as bad. A good, properly stored, preservative-free loaf of bread should remain edible and untouched by mold for up to several days (it will become stale, but not moldy), so if there's early mold in there, and you didn't soak it in any liquids, you should probably complain or at least pay attention to the look and smell of store loaves from this point on.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
And these are precisely the parties that are widely demonized, vilified and compared to nazis (by both the other parties and the media at large). Very much here in Finland, and I know for a fact that it happens also (and even worse) in Sweden. The equivalent party in the UK is also generally vilified. I don't know what the exact situation is in Denmark.
I can't comment on the situation in Finland or Denmark. I tend to keep to domestic happenings because it's very difficult to get a clear picture, and to get all the facts when you have to rely on mostly translated and relatively distant accounts.
But based on my experience here, it's not so much the parties themselves that are being demonized, but some of the more radical ideas that they adhere to. There is quite a lot of overlap between these parties and the radical, fact-free right; not just membership overlap (because that's where a lot of their core voters are), but in ideology as well. Like I mentioned before, one of our major parties subscribes to a racist conspiracy theory that says Europe will be taken over by Islamists in a few generations. It's not even statistically possible, but that's the main line. The same goes for a bunch of other core ideas. It should be noted that Geert Wilders, the leader of the PVV, was one of the high-profile politicians and polemicists enthusiastically cited in Anders Breivik's manifesto.
To me, these are worrying things that are worthy of ridicule. I'm not saying that just anybody who believes that "multiculturalism has failed" also believes these things (on the contrary), but honestly, I've been immersed in this debate for far too long and have never heard any truly convincing arguments from the other side.
Anyway, I might have jumped the gun here. I'm not interested in having a debate about this with anybody.
But to respond to your original statement, I don't think anyone with reasonable ideas is getting ridiculed. (At least, not anymore than any other party.) If that were so, the right-wing VVD would not be in power here today, nor would the PVV be providing support to its coalition with the moderate CDA. It's truly absurd or morally defunct arguments that are, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Like I mentioned before, one of our major parties subscribes to a racist conspiracy theory that says Europe will be taken over by Islamists in a few generations. It's not even statistically possible
Source? And how is it "racist" (my god, that term has become meaningless). It's not a "conspiracy theory" either, it's a population shift theory that is likely according to Unwin. (dl)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Johannes wrote:
Like I mentioned before, one of our major parties subscribes to a racist conspiracy theory that says Europe will be taken over by Islamists in a few generations
Source? And how is it "racist" (my god, that term has become meaningless)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurabia
Again, I don't want this to become a discussion. But go ahead and read this and see for yourself what you make out of it. ("Conspiracy theory" accurately describes it, because one of its core tenets is that the political class is explicitly causing Europe to be "taken over" and turned into an Islamic caliphate.)
And how is it "racist" (my god, that term has become meaningless).
It's not meaningless. It simply has lost its original meaning. In the modern political discourse "racist" means, approximately, "any kind of perceived prejudice that white people have towards non-white people" (completely regardless of the reason for this prejudice). It doesn't have to be about ethnicity or race. Even criticizing non-Christian religion is considered "racism" (even though religion has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity).
Of course the reason why it has lost its original meaning and has been broaden to cover everything from nazi white power supremacy ideology to rational criticism of islam is that it's a convenient weasel word to discredit people. It has suffered the same kind of inflation as eg. the term "terrorism" has (and for similar reasons).
Fear of Muslims isn't "racist" by the dictionary definition, because "Muslim" isn't a race. But we don't have a well-known word for "fear of members of a religion" so "racism" came in to serve. Language is fluid that way. I would generally consider most modern "racism" to be just generalized xenophobia (that is, fear of those who are different from you).
Fun fact: the USA is only about 64% Caucasian.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Fear of Muslims isn't "racist" by the dictionary definition, because "Muslim" isn't a race.
That's truly the new "I'm not racist, I have a black friend."
No. Calling people who criticize the islamic culture and religion "racists" is just a dirty tactic. It's a way to vilify and demonize the critics, while ignoring the actual arguments. In other words, it's a perfect example of an ad hominem (attack the person, not his arguments).
Criticizing islam as a culture and as a religion has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. Using "racism" in this context is a complete and deliberate misnomer. It's basically namecalling. It's the same thing as calling someone "fascist" or "a nazi" even though they may not necessarily hold a political or ideological view that adheres to those. It's just a senseless attack.
If you call people who criticize islam and islamic culture "racists", you should by the exact same logic call people who criticize christianity and christian culture "racists". Nobody does that, though. It's a hypocritical double standard.
Criticism of Islam, misguided as I think it usually is, isn't what I was referring to. To too many people it's just thinly veiled Islamophobia.
Even if it's "islamophobia" (whatever that might actually mean), it's still not racism. Religion has nothing to do with ethnicity. Most people who oppose islam (whether it's because of rational reasons or because of irrational prejudice) would oppose it regardless of who advocates it.
As said, if "islamophobia" is racism, then opposing christianity is too. It makes no sense.
Look, be pedantic all you like, but we both know that most Muslims have brown skin, and that political fear of Muslims is just the socially acceptable suit that fear of brown people wear, so that members of the public can say with a straight face (and believe it themselves) that they're not being racist, they're just against Islam.
The fact is, Islamophobia is rooted in racism. Maybe not all people who are Islamophobics believe they are racist, and maybe not all people who are Islamophobics actually are not racist (which are totally different things of course.) But it doesn't really matter. Politically, Islamophobia was created to attract the racists without being openly racist, sort of a wink wink nudge nudge, we're on your side.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Look, be pedantic all you like, but we both know that most Muslims have brown skin, and that political fear of Muslims is just the socially acceptable suit that fear of brown people wear, so that members of the public can say with a straight face (and believe it themselves) that they're not being racist, they're just against Islam.
The fact is, Islamophobia is rooted in racism. Maybe not all people who are Islamophobics believe they are racist, and maybe not all people who are Islamophobics actually are not racist (which are totally different things of course.) But it doesn't really matter. Politically, Islamophobia was created to attract the racists without being openly racist, sort of a wink wink nudge nudge, we're on your side.
I think that it's quite sad that you are completely oblivious to the fact that that's a perfect example of playing the racism card. The leftist multiculturalist propaganda has taught you well, and you have swallowed it whole, hook, line and sinker.
You know how white power supremacists like to play the "jew card". In other words, whenever a white person opposes their arguments, they dismiss it with a "he must be a jew, and hence his arguments are not valid". Accusing people of being jewish is quite convenient because it allows them to dismiss any counterarguments made by white people (as many western jews could well pass for caucasians).
Multiculturalists have a similar card: The racism card. Any criticism of islam is dismissed by it being "racist". It's quite convenient that the majority of muslims happen to be from the middle east and Africa, which happen to be people with darker skin tones, and hence any criticism of islam can be diverted to be criticism based on ethnicity. Guilt by association, of sorts. Hence any such arguments can be dismissed.
Your argument "islamophobia is just racism is disguise" would have a greater weight if the islamic culture would indeed be like that of any other religion, such as buddhism, hinduism, shintoism, hare krishna and so on. However, most of those are not western caucasians either, yet you seldom see the "racists" presenting heavy criticism of them. Why not? If criticism of a religious culture would indeed by caused by prejudiced racism, you would expect them to criticize all such religions with the same fervor.
The real answer is that buddhists and hinduists seldom come here to do this. Buddhists and hinduists also seldom enact, at governmental level, the stoning to death of apostates, adulterers and homosexuals (while thousands of spectators watch), and advocate bringing those barbaric laws to the western countries. This has nothing to do with skin color.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
I think that it's quite sad that you are completely oblivious to the fact that that's a perfect example of playing the racism card. The leftist multiculturalist propaganda has taught you well, and you have swallowed it whole, hook, line and sinker.
You're an extremely misguided individual.
Yes, he's so terrible for being sensitive to the fact that Muslims are by far the greatest recipients of racist anger today. And yes, he's just a dumb "leftist multiculturalist" for thinking that perhaps we should lay off on those Muslims and stop pretending to be good liberal intellectuals by complaining about Islamist practices that aren't actually in play here in Europe and by extension incriminating those who practice any form of Islam.
For even suggesting that Islamophobia is fuelled by racism we're automatically "playing the racist card", which means we're wrong and we're just like white power supremacists. Hey, what's that about hypocrisy again?
Do you have any idea how many Muslim houses of prayer are literally being attacked? How many Muslims fall victim to hate crimes? How many people are beaten up because they're Muslim? How many Muslims don't get a job because the one hiring thinks they're dangerous?
Europe is, by and large, more racist now than the US is, and you are proof: you are perfectly content to keep demonizing an entire group of people simply because "I'm really criticizing Islam" and "they're not a race, so I'm not racist". You may not be racist yourself—I don't know—but you're enabling those that are.
But then again, I'm probably just an indoctrinated "leftist multiculturalist" whose crime is I prefer everybody to be able to live and be themselves here in peace.
Warp wrote:
Your argument "islamophobia is just racism is disguise" would have a greater weight if the islamic culture would indeed be like that of any other religion, such as buddhism, hinduism, shintoism, hare krishna and so on.
And this is exactly what I mean. People are so keen to look at the actions of the few, or even things that happen all the way over in Saudi Arabia, as a way of trying to convince everybody that Muslims are "different" and that they reject Western values. Forget about the fact that European Muslims are vastly more liberal than their Middle-Eastern and African counterparts. Forget about it entirely: they're Muslims. They're DIFFERENT! I am Warp and I am not a racist.
Meanwhile, there are others on this forum who truly believe in "Eurabia", the concept that Muslims are going to reproduce themselves to domination. Which in reality is statistically impossible, and even if the demographics of it worked out it still makes the racist assumption that Muslims are all the same, that there aren't many separate groups and communities within the demographic, and that Muslims will all band together to turn Europe into a caliphate. I wonder if Warp believes in that, too? Does he also believe that European leaders have conspired to make this happen?
The most frequent victims of the most severe racism in Europe today are Muslims. Period. No contest. Yet there are people like Warp who will gladly keep on insisting that "they're different", and "their culture is cruel", and that every Muslims in fact fully endorses some of the more awful aspects of the Islamic religion. Who cares that European Muslims are not only incredibly divided but also, barring an insignificant few exceptions, incredibly different from their counterparts elsewhere in the world? Who cares that it's not only incredibly stupid, but also offensive to consider them all one and the same, and then to attack the group as a whole?
"Criticism of Islam" again proves itself to be just a thinly veiled excuse for frustrated European natives to assert their dominance. Yet they will insist that "the leftist multiculturalists" are the racists. Warp, congratulations, you use exactly the same stupid arguments that I've seen stupid young right-wingers use for years and years now. But that's okay, because you're just being a good European liberal by speaking out against the horrible tsunami of Islam that's sweeping across our great continent, right?
edit: on a side note, I think I personally would be a lot happier if this topic was locked. I don't really want to discuss politics in here because this is exactly the sort of thing that happens when people start discussing extremely divisive issues. I can respectfully disagree on many topics, but not when one side of the aisle is actively perpetuating a climate of hatred against an entire group of people under the guise of "criticism of Islam", whether they intend it or not. I just can't. So Warp will no doubt respond and I'll respond to him, and others will join in too. So let's just end this, I don't even care if Warp gets the last say.
Warp, remember your history. Radical Buddhists allied with radical Christians in World War 2. Radical Hindus regularly are in strife with Christians and Muslims in India. Hell, in Sri Lanka they fought a 20 year civil war, it was a civil war between the Hindu Tamils vs the Buddhist Sinhalese.
The truth is, some people are assholes, and it doesn't matter if they're Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist or Agnostic. These people are the same sorts of people in every society.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShDaJXK5qo
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Ok, let's see your arguments why. I'll refer to reputable sources in my response, I'd like to see yours.
Yes, he's so terrible for being sensitive to the fact that Muslims are by far the greatest recipients of racist anger today. And yes, he's just a dumb "leftist multiculturalist" for thinking that perhaps we should lay off on those Muslims and stop pretending to be good liberal intellectuals by complaining about Islamist practices that aren't actually in play here in Europe and by extension incriminating those who practice any form of Islam.
For even suggesting that Islamophobia is fuelled by racism we're automatically "playing the racist card", which means we're wrong and we're just like white power supremacists. Hey, what's that about hypocrisy again?
Do you have any idea how many Muslim houses of prayer are literally being attacked? How many Muslims fall victim to hate crimes? How many people are beaten up because they're Muslim? How many Muslims don't get a job because the one hiring thinks they're dangerous?
So you are basically implying that islamic religion and culture should be exempt from any kind of criticism because muslims are victims of discrimination in Europe? They should get a free pass, no matter how barbaric their culture might be?
Not a barbaric culture? How about genital mutilation of muslim girls being rampant in Europe? This is a direct result of their culture, and I wouldn't call 2000 cases in Britain alone isolated fringe cases.
Europe is, by and large, more racist now than the US is, and you are proof: you are perfectly content to keep demonizing an entire group of people simply because "I'm really criticizing Islam" and "they're not a race, so I'm not racist". You may not be racist yourself—I don't know—but you're enabling those that are.
And you are enabling those muslims who are racists themselves, in the accurate sense of the word, by giving them a free pass and exempting them from criticism.
What, muslims cannot be racists? How about jews having to move out of their home towns because of rampant anti-semitism? Guess who is doing the anti-semitism. No, the answer is not the white power supremacists. And Sweden is by far not the only country where this is happening.
But then again, I'm probably just an indoctrinated "leftist multiculturalist" whose crime is I prefer everybody to be able to live and be themselves here in peace.
Most critics of islamic culture wouldn't have any problem with muslims if they indeed wanted to live here in peace.
Warp wrote:
Your argument "islamophobia is just racism is disguise" would have a greater weight if the islamic culture would indeed be like that of any other religion, such as buddhism, hinduism, shintoism, hare krishna and so on.
And this is exactly what I mean. People are so keen to look at the actions of the few, or even things that happen all the way over in Saudi Arabia, as a way of trying to convince everybody that Muslims are "different" and that they reject Western values.
The multiculturalist "the problematic people are only an extremely small minority, just a fringe group of radicals who do not represent the majority" argument would carry more weight if it didn't contradict actual studies. How about 33% of muslim students in Britain back killing for islam and 40% want Sharia law. Sure, 33 and 40% are technically speaking a minority. Not a very small one, though. The word "few" just doesn't apply.
Or how about death threats against women and homosexuals in London? Which the London police tried to cover up. These "small fringe groups" are trying to establish entire zones of Sharia law in Britain.
And the UK is not alone in this. If you want to find even worse examples, do a bit of research on what's happening in Sweden. I'll dig up some sources if you really want, but I suspect you won't. After all, I'm just a "racist", or at the very least an "enabler of racism".
Btw, I would like to know if you think these people are racists too.
Forget about the fact that European Muslims are vastly more liberal than their Middle-Eastern and African counterparts. Forget about it entirely: they're Muslims. They're DIFFERENT! I am Warp and I am not a racist.
I don't mind the "vastly more liberal" muslims. I mind the very significant portion of them who want to establish Sharia in European countries, who commit acts of anti-semitism and barbaric cultural practices such as female genital mutilation. I also oppose the leftist multiculturalist movement that tries to deny that this is a big problem, and wants to shut down all criticism of the islamic culture on the basis that they are "victims or racism".
So, where are your sources?
religious discrimination sometimes is motivated by racism and usually by xenophobia, but even if it isn't it is still a form of bigotry
albeit IMO not as severe as racism, sexism, or xeno-/homo-/trans-phobia, because it's easier to change your religion (or better, get rid of it) than your race, birth sex, homeland, sexual orientation, or gender identity
