Post by alden

Posted: 5/9/2012 11:54 PM

Post subject: I don't understand what is "entertaining"

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TheNewTeddy

Joined: 5/3/2012
Posts: 29

I've asked this question three dozen times in the chat room, and while many users are willing to respond, I've yet to get a good clear simple answer to this. I'd still like to figure this out so that my first TAS won't get rejected based on being boring. First off, I know there is a thread a few spots down, a rant, about what someone else thinks is entertaining. I'm not looking for, or presenting, a lecture. I am posing a question, and thus, feel this deserves it's own thread. I have a problem. What I find to be boring, the majority of the voting audience at TASvideos, seem to find entertaining. What I find entertaining, the majority of the voting audience at TASvideos, seem to find boring. I'd rather not have to pose a "hey, is this boring" question to the chat room or the forum every 5 minutes. I'd like to learn and understand what you guys find boring and why. Many times I'll see games, like chess games, rejected because they are boring, and-oh-by-the-way TASing does not really blah blah blah the speed etc. To me it is clear that the run is boring, and the fact that chess games can not be improved upon much though TAS tools, is just an afterthought to justify the decision. It is as though, even if the tools were useless, if the game was fun enough, it'd be alright. I find games like this http://tasvideos.org/1934S.html to be entertaining. Most people, however, do not. I understand that some games have a specific appeal - IE if you dig chess, you'll find chess games more fun. While I've played North & South it is by no means a game that, if I had access to every game ever, I'd ever choose to play. This is a game in particular that I don't understand why people find boring... is it not fast enough? I'm really just not getting what the general audience finds boring. I know each person will differ, but with some games, there seems to be an overwhelming majority voting one way, and I seem to be on the other side. What types of things make a game boring? What types of things make a game entertaining? This list http://tasvideos.org/ListOfBadGameChoices.html is what REALLY throws me off. Rhythm games... are "exact reaction times" not the point of TASing? Knowing the Puzzle... is that not the same as heavy RNG manipulation? Racing Games... Again, is being perfect not the point? Next I go to here http://tasvideos.org/ExamplesOfBadGameChoices.html and find a lot of games listed, but no explanation of why any of them are terribly bad? I will disclose, again, that I have Autism, and there is actually a good chance that this is why I can not see something that might be clear and obvious to you, the reader. If so, I'm asking for your help, as to explain this to me in a way that I can understand it.

Posted: 5/9/2012 11:58 PM

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jlun2

Skilled player (1705)

Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4952
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"

Entertainment is relative to the viewer, and if a majority agrees with the movie's "dullness", then it is dull. I think...

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 5/9/2012 11:58 PM

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RachelB

She/Her

Player (127)

Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579

Rhythm games... are "exact reaction times" not the point of TASing?

Yes, but it's not impressive when the only possibility is to do is exactly right or completely wrong. Everyone has different opinions on what is entertaining, so if you're not sure something will be publishable, just make a short demo and ask for opinions.

Posted: 5/10/2012 12:08 AM

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DeHackEd

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Former player

Joined: 11/6/2004
Posts: 833

Sadly these are basically correct. I'm going to spend X minutes (or even hours!) to watching your video. At the end of it, I must feel that it was worth my time. In spite of everything I know about how a TAS is made and any in-depth knowledge I may have about a game, it should still impress me at least a little bit. Yes it's vague. No I can't describe it any better. But if you could just know what's entertaining and good before trying it, Hollywood would make better stuff.

Posted: 5/10/2012 2:13 AM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Hm...I think one thing you should look for is that a TAS should, in some way, subvert expected gameplay. This can be by doing frame-perfect glitches or sequence breaks, or by getting uncommonly close to enemies, or any number of other things. The difficulty with rhythm games is that they are specifically "perform this sequence of button inputs as accurately as possible." Sure the TAS can do this perfectly, but there's no subversion going on here; the TAS is doing, well, exactly what you'd expect to see from perfect play. Puzzle games, similarly, are generally "perform this sequence of actions". If the TAS just performs that sequence, even if it's going with frame perfection, there's nothing surprising for the viewer. There are puzzle games where you can break this, though, so it's not a hard-and-fast rule. Racing games...well, it really depends on the game. If you have to repeat the same route 3 or 5 times to finish a course, then you have a lot of repetition; if the AI is hopelessly outperformed then there's not a lot of interest once you've seen one lap. Again, not all racing games are like this, but plenty of them are.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 5/10/2012 2:21 AM

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Abahbob

Player (33)

Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island

For the examples of bad game choices, many (if not all) have a previous submission that didn't turn out well. Most of those games are immensely/overly long, or have some off putting element. Bad music and visuals combined with not too much action make for a bad game. If you want to, you could check out the submissions for the examples of bad game choices. Some have some explanation on the submission as to why they were rejected. Or you could download the movie and watch it yourself. Really, it's up to you to determine if it is up to "TASVideos quality".

IronSlayer wrote:

Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".

Seems legit.

Posted: 5/10/2012 4:07 AM

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AKheon

Editor, Experienced player (894)

Joined: 1/23/2008
Posts: 529
Location: Finland

The problem with rhythm games is that achieving exact button presses is pretty trivial in TAS conditions. Just a normal platformer poses a much larger challenge to TAS than any sort of rhythm game I've seen, and the technical challenge is to a large degree what constitutes the meat of the TAS and gives it meaning to exist (at least as a TASvideos publication). Hey, this is a pretty interesting question... have to get back to it later.

Posted: 5/10/2012 8:18 AM

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TheNewTeddy

Joined: 5/3/2012
Posts: 29

I've been reviewing a lot of the rejected submissions. It seems that some judges, consistently, explain why the run is being rejected in a way I can easily understand, while other judges, consistently, do not explain why in a way I can understand.

Posted: 5/10/2012 8:29 AM

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jlun2

Skilled player (1705)

Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4952
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"

TheNewTeddy wrote:

I've been reviewing a lot of the rejected submissions. It seems that some judges, consistently, explain why the run is being rejected in a way I can easily understand, while other judges, consistently, do not explain why in a way I can understand.

Some examples of the two would be nice, so judges could (possibly) make their future reasons more clear.

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 5/10/2012 8:30 AM

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TheNewTeddy

Joined: 5/3/2012
Posts: 29

Would that be wise? If I call them out, would they not be offended?

Posted: 5/10/2012 8:41 AM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

A TAS has clear entertainment potential when: 1) it's doing something unexpected, and decisions the player makes aren't obvious; 2) it looks significantly sharper than even the best examples of unassisted play of said game; 3) something interesting happens all the time with little downtime; 4) there is variety in gameplay; 5) you can relate to the gameplay somehow, or at least understand what is being done at a given moment. That should pretty much cover all of the major reasons for rejection, btw. Rhythm games completely fail #1, #2 and #4, most puzzle games have trouble with #2 and #4, most autoscrollers commonly fail #1 and #3, RPGs' main problem is #3 and #5. Platformers with complex movement (later Castlevania games, Metroid series, later Mario games, Sonic series, DKC series, Gimmick, Cave Story) or complex glitches (most of the Megaman series, SMB2, SMW, Sonic series again) are somewhat of a privileged genre because they rarely have problem with any of these criteria. Down to business, so to say.

TheNewTeddy wrote:

If I call them out, would they not be offended?

They won't, because they need to be accountable for their decisions if they are to remain judges in the first place.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 5/10/2012 9:01 AM

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TheNewTeddy

Joined: 5/3/2012
Posts: 29

I've went though all the rejections in 2012 and a quarter of them in 2011 and it appears that the worst of the worst come from a single judge, and only when replying to things submitted between March 31st and April 2nd...

Posted: 5/10/2012 10:51 AM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Skilled player (1938)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3246

Given a submission that occurred between March 31 and April 2, it is likely to be an April Fools joke submission. A significant number of joke submissions are characterized by trivial or ridiculous "goals", highly bad or unsuitable "games", and nonsensical submission text. It is quite tempting to post a similarly bad judging response, not that it is a very helpful thing to do. If you see a bad judging response, keep in mind that there is a reason why the submission received that response. If you'd like clarification on any response, just post it here. Aside from joke submissions, if you're not sure, check the submission's discussion thread. It will very likely indicate the overall opinion of the submission, not only whether it is entertaining or not, but also whether it is worth publishing or not. For the moment, do not worry about whether or not your choice of game is entertaining to others or not. Your concern should be about: - quality of TAS. - ease of creating the TAS, without struggling with emulator issues. Most of the time, entertainment comes just from being well-done, so think of that first. I also suggest that you don't mention autism in any discussion. The concerns you brought up here are valid regardless.

Posted: 5/10/2012 2:34 PM

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TheNewTeddy

Joined: 5/3/2012
Posts: 29

You are actually the one of note who always fully explains things, and just reading your comments about why you rejected some runs that I did not even know existed have helped me understand the answer to this question. I guess part of the problem is that I find many april fools ideas to be fascinating. For (a made up) example "this run uses an overflow glitch that turns all enemies into Mario, and the player into a Koopa" I'd be like "OMG yes, that sounds AWESOME" But some judges are like "activating this glitch costs valuable time, and the sprites still act like what they are supposed to, despite looking different. In addition, this run is sub-optimal, and suddenly ends after the third stage. This glitch is not helpful to TASing, rejecting" to which I'm like ":( oh, yea, that makes sense" While other judges are like "What an uninteresting idea, nobody wants to see this" which just makes me go "WHAT THE %@$! I WANT TO YOU @$%#$!@" and of course delving into allcaps, regardless of weather it's typed or said out loud, is never a good thing for one's blood pressure. edit "this is boring" VS "the audience found this boring". The former makes a black and white claim that, if you disagree, because it is stated as a FACT, makes you feel stupid for disagreeing.

Posted: 5/10/2012 2:44 PM

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ALAKTORN

He/Him

Player (99)

Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy

TheNewTeddy wrote:

"this run uses an overflow glitch that turns all enemies into Mario, and the player into a Koopa"

wait what can I have a link to that run? is it encoded?

Posted: 5/10/2012 2:46 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3584)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
Location: Tennessee

moozooh wrote:

A TAS has clear entertainment potential when: 1) it's doing something unexpected, and decisions the player makes aren't obvious; 2) it looks significantly sharper than even the best examples of unassisted play of said game; 3) something interesting happens all the time with little downtime; 4) there is variety in gameplay; 5) you can relate to the gameplay somehow, or at least understand what is being done at a given moment. That should pretty much cover all of the major reasons for rejection, btw. Rhythm games completely fail #1, #2 and #4, most puzzle games have trouble with #2 and #4, most autoscrollers commonly fail #1 and #3, RPGs' main problem is #3 and #5. Platformers with complex movement (later Castlevania games, Metroid series, later Mario games, Sonic series, DKC series, Gimmick, Cave Story) or complex glitches (most of the Megaman series, SMB2, SMW, Sonic series again) are somewhat of a privileged genre because they rarely have problem with any of these criteria. Down to business, so to say.
TheNewTeddy wrote:
If I call them out, would they not be offended?
They won't, because they need to be accountable for their decisions if they are to remain judges in the first place.

This is extremely well stated! And probably better worded than anything we currently have on the Wiki...

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 5/10/2012 8:07 PM

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TheNewTeddy

Joined: 5/3/2012
Posts: 29

adelikat wrote:

moozooh wrote:
A TAS has clear entertainment potential when: 1) it's doing something unexpected, and decisions the player makes aren't obvious; 2) it looks significantly sharper than even the best examples of unassisted play of said game; 3) something interesting happens all the time with little downtime; 4) there is variety in gameplay; 5) you can relate to the gameplay somehow, or at least understand what is being done at a given moment. That should pretty much cover all of the major reasons for rejection, btw. Rhythm games completely fail #1, #2 and #4, most puzzle games have trouble with #2 and #4, most autoscrollers commonly fail #1 and #3, RPGs' main problem is #3 and #5. Platformers with complex movement (later Castlevania games, Metroid series, later Mario games, Sonic series, DKC series, Gimmick, Cave Story) or complex glitches (most of the Megaman series, SMB2, SMW, Sonic series again) are somewhat of a privileged genre because they rarely have problem with any of these criteria. Down to business, so to say.
TheNewTeddy wrote:
If I call them out, would they not be offended?
They won't, because they need to be accountable for their decisions if they are to remain judges in the first place.
This is extremely well stated! And probably better worded than anything we currently have on the Wiki...

Can/will this be added to the wiki? It does answer my original question quite well.

Posted: 5/10/2012 11:15 PM

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nanogyth

Player (65)

Joined: 4/21/2011
Posts: 232

alden wrote:

I found north and south interesting mostly because it slaughters horses.

It didn't slaughter the horses, it freed them to take a swim in the river. I found it entertaining for a 2 minute story. p.s. How is Clue not on the list of games too boring to TAS?

Posted: 5/11/2012 12:17 AM

Post subject: Re: I don't understand what is "entertaining"

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Nach

Emulator Coder

Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers

TheNewTeddy wrote:

Many times I'll see games, like chess games, rejected because they are boring, and-oh-by-the-way TASing does not really blah blah blah the speed etc. To me it is clear that the run is boring, and the fact that chess games can not be improved upon much though TAS tools, is just an afterthought to justify the decision. It is as though, even if the tools were useless, if the game was fun enough, it'd be alright.

Even the most fun of Chess games will most likely be rejected. This site differs from other video sites that most of our runs try to do the impossible. They beat games quicker than is humanly possible. They do things in games that no human in their right mind would ever do. If a run doesn't benefit from slow motion, rewinds and so on - noticeably so, it doesn't really deserve to be on our site. A really fun Chess game is just that, a really fun Chess game. It'd be good material for a Chess centric site. What you may have done to Chessmaster 3000 SNES edition is really irrelevant to what makes the run fun, nor would slow-motion or any of those things noticeable help. Really good players out there can play amazing games in their sleep.

TheNewTeddy wrote:

Knowing the Puzzle... is that not the same as heavy RNG manipulation?

No, it's not. If there is an RNG, there are many possible outcomes in a game. If it's just solving a puzzle, there's the optimal method, and there are suboptimal methods, there's nothing of interest presenting surprising and superhuman gameplay. Once you know the solution, you just put it in.

TheNewTeddy wrote:

I've been reviewing a lot of the rejected submissions. It seems that some judges, consistently, explain why the run is being rejected in a way I can easily understand, while other judges, consistently, do not explain why in a way I can understand. I've went though all the rejections in 2012 and a quarter of them in 2011 and it appears that the worst of the worst come from a single judge, and only when replying to things submitted between March 31st and April 2nd...

I did most of the rejections for this year's April Fools runs, so you're probably talking about me. If you look at most of my rejections at other times of the year, you'll usually find decent and sometimes quite lengthy rejection explanations. During April Fools, there is such an inflated amount of subpar runs, and most of those runs can easily be seen by watching them that they were not serious TASs, I didn't bother with a thorough explanation. If the run itself doesn't even look liked the author tried, the judge does not have to convey why the run is bad, it's obvious in and of itself. It's only when the issues are a bit more fine than that when the (lengthy) explanations are needed. If after you watch a movie, and you find it's not obvious why it was rejected, and the rejection message doesn't explain the rejection, please post about it here.

nanogyth wrote:

p.s. How is Clue not on the list of games too boring to TAS?

We have a published Clue run. Monopoly too.

Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.

Posted: 5/11/2012 9:05 AM

Post subject: Re: I don't understand what is "entertaining"

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CtrlAltDestroy

Active player (324)

Joined: 2/23/2005
Posts: 786

And sometimes, we even accept a puzzle game where knowing the answer is all it takes to beat it. Anyone remember this movie? Excitebike is a starred movie, even though racing games are on the list. We have some good Mario Kart runs too. And interactive novels: Shadowgate, Uninvited, and Deja Vu are all published movies, the first of which has been improved many times. Bottom line is: the only definition for entertainment is public vote; if you're looking for a more concrete definition, then you will be disappointed to find that there isn't one. (Artists of all kinds have been struggling with this same question for centuries, by the way.) Now, if you know what your audience likes and what they are expecting -- that is, if you understand the demographics you appeal to -- then it is easier to tell what will entertain them. Likewise, you can also observe and measure trends of what they do not enjoy. That's really all that the "lists" of bad games and choices are; they are in no way concrete rules, they are a measurement of trends from our audience here at this site. On this site, we do indeed enjoy surprising things: surprising speed, surprising glitches, surprising puzzle solutions, surprising improvements to existing movies, to name a few. I'm sure even a Chess run could get accepted if, for example, it was a playaround run which used a buffer overflow glitch to transform all pieces into Queens, moved pieces off the board, abused horrible AI in laughable ways, and so on. Nothing is set in stone.

Posted: 5/11/2012 3:05 PM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

TheNewTeddy wrote:

adelikat wrote:
This is extremely well stated! And probably better worded than anything we currently have on the Wiki...
Can/will this be added to the wiki? It does answer my original question quite well.

The rating guidelines are not that far off from that.

Posted: 5/11/2012 7:25 PM

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nfq

Player (93)

Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204

TheNewTeddy wrote:

I'd like to learn and understand what you guys find boring and why.

It depends on how much is happening in the TAS and if you understand what is happening. TASes which are fast, like Sonic, where a lot of things are happening all the time, are entertaining, because the brain has more things to analyze. If not much is happening, if it's a slow game and a lot of repetition, it's boring. But even a slow game, like my Phantasy Star TAS, can be entertaining if you know or understand the game very well. I think most sports are boring and repetitive, such as like F1 racing. It's just cars going through the same track 40 times. But it's only because I don't have much knowledge or experience about those things.

Youtube channel | Goldeneye and PD TAS times

Posted: 5/11/2012 7:53 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11264
Location: RU

It's all about how much action realy happens at once and how diverse it is. If you consider that and not you mood today, you would see what's really intertaining and valuable.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 5/11/2012 11:10 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

nfq wrote:

TheNewTeddy wrote:
I'd like to learn and understand what you guys find boring and why.
It depends on how much is happening in the TAS and if you understand what is happening. TASes which are fast, like Sonic, where a lot of things are happening all the time, are entertaining, because the brain has more things to analyze.

For what it's worth, I find many Sonic TASes to be exhausting to watch, and pretty quickly my brain just starts tuning stuff out. I can't keep up with what's going on, and that actually makes it less entertaining for me. That has more to do with the sheer speed of the game (in terms of how quickly stuff moves) than with the gameplay though.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.