I have a question. What about character choice as another category? For example, in Mario Bros. 2, the fastest game uses a mix of Luigi and Toad. What about the Peach only run, or Toad only? Would that have to get a moon or can it be accepted as a pure speedrun?
Actually a better example would be Castlevania: Bloodlines. It's a very different run depending on which character you choose, and the times between the two characters are about the same. Do we only allow the fastest time or would both runs be allowed in the "Vault" category (assuming they did not qualify for a "Moon")?
I do think every games should have a character run, I do think it's interesting, but the characters should have noticeable difference.
For example(yes a bad example, but I think it illustrates wel), Luigi in super mario world is essentially mario in green clothes. So it should not have his own run.
However, on the GBA version, Luigi is different than Mario!(As I recall, he jumps higher and others things), He should have his run.
An present example is the super mario bros 2 run and peach run.
These kind of runs could be publicated in an other way. Something like:
The pure run is the principal run, and should have somewhat a higher attention as: This is THE speedrun of the game, nothing will be faster than this.
The derived runs are the runs that has something different of the pure run, for a good reason!(100%, glitchless, glitchfests,playarond)
Theses runs is seen as: If you'd like some tweaks to the speedrun, looks at these runs!(As an example of what I'm thinking is the description of super mario 64, all the derived forms is there). Because it's on the description of the pure run, I think we could remove the other of the full list of game in order to have less to show.(Sorry it's not on topic, just wanted to throw this idea before I forget)(and note than my favourite runs are often the derived forms runs... anyway)
For example, Super mario 64.
The pure run is the 5 minutes run.
The derived runs is the 70 stars run and the 120 stars run.
another example is, again, super mario bros 2.
The pure run uses a mix of characters.
A peach run is present.
But the 3 characters could have theirs runs because each of them has different characteristics:(Luigi jumps higher and is "sloppery"(He slides easily), toad jumps lower, but runs faster with an item, peach can fly and mario is the neutral character.
To symmarize( Not sure if being clear), derived character could have their runs if it's noticeabily different and be showed somewhere on the site, not rejected.
It would seem to me that TASes of most games that are TASed where you'd want to have more than two categories for different characters and goals would easily fit the "moon tier" criteria. Super Metroid, SMB2, STGs, SM64, and just about any popular game will easily make Moon for alternate categories — the amount of games that are boring enough to go into the Vault while still being TAS-desirable and versatile enough to have multiple meaningful categories would seem to be around nil.
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I feel this thread is getting a bit off topic with the categories.
I think everyone makes good points either way, and there's a lot of questions when it comes to different categories. And that precisely the reason for the strict categories in the vault. The point is to minimize subjectiveness in this tier. Why should we publish a category that isn't the fastest? Because there's some kind of entertainment value, or audience. Therefore it should be judged based on moon requirements (which involves audience response).
Can we agree you can't generalize what is or isn't a good category for a game? Thus it needs discussion on a game by game basis. The deciding factor in that discussion is whether people like it.
Why should we publish a category that isn't the fastest? Because there's some kind of entertainment value, or audience. Therefore it should be judged based on moon requirements (which involves audience response).
I agree. But what about the real-time/in-game time branches?
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Out of 1000 currently published movies, there's been 3 in-game timer any% runs that I know of, Super Metroid and 2 Punchout games. I think it is safe to assume realtime. Should it ever come up, we could maybe make an exception.
Should it ever come up, we could maybe make an exception.
And I assume we'd make that exception because in-game would be entertaining? Oh look, we already covered that bit ;)
Seriously guys, adelikat's proposol is pretty solid. Something is either the real-time record for the game or not. If not, we judge it as we always have.
Out of 1000 currently published movies, there's been 3 in-game timer any% runs that I know of, Super Metroid and 2 Punchout games. I think it is safe to assume realtime. Should it ever come up, we could maybe make an exception.
Actually, there's 35 runs that aim for in-game time, but some of them, like Kung Fu, Mr. Driller 2, etc, only have 1 branch, and the main branch focus on in-game time. Would those runs be obsoleted by a faster real-time based run?
I think that would depend on the game. In a large majority of case, I would say real time is the way to go, but with Sonic games for instance, where getting a good real time sometimes involves waiting for the timer to reach a certain time, I would go with in-game time.
This sounds like a wonderful reform! Definitely a Yes vote. Can't wait for the changes or the massive unGrueing.
So if any% is defined as "fastest possible completion" and there are only any% and 100% categories, will a "glitched" run become the new any% run?
So if any% is defined as "fastest possible completion" and there are only any% and 100% categories, will a "glitched" run become the new any% run?
Then the glitched run should be the in the records (speedruns) (vault), and the old any% run (glitchless) should be either obsoleted or moved from Speedruns to Moons (Superplays), depending on its entertainment value.
I feel this thread is getting a bit off topic with the categories.
I think everyone makes good points either way, and there's a lot of questions when it comes to different categories. And that precisely the reason for the strict categories in the vault. The point is to minimize subjectiveness in this tier. Why should we publish a category that isn't the fastest? Because there's some kind of entertainment value, or audience. Therefore it should be judged based on moon requirements (which involves audience response).
Can we agree you can't generalize what is or isn't a good category for a game? Thus it needs discussion on a game by game basis. The deciding factor in that discussion is whether people like it.
question: Zelda A Link To The Past have 2 any% runs, one glitched and another that's..well, not. Which one should be on wault, only the glitched one?
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
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The "must match or beat existing records" rule wouldn't be relaxed for vault movies.
It's just that not nearly every old console game has a normal speedrun either...
Btw, I'm still wondering about my question on whether there will be another "gruefood revival" round or not, if publications become more acceptable after this change.
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I think people are losing some common sense here.
Which Link to the Past movie would go to the vault? NEITHER, they are entertaining movies with an audience support.
Now, for Elmo's Letter Adventure, does the glitched any% or the any% go to the vault? The faster of the two.
Warp, I don't think you reading the proposal, because your questions I think are CLEARLY answered, please make an attempt to find your answers there.
What about the SMW glitched run? Will it go to the vault instead of the 10-minute any% run?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Regarding the middle tier, the boring option would be to give it some generic name and NULL icon, which would mostly hide the name from users.
I think the places where tiers with NULL icon shows up are:
- Publication edit page.
- Publication header edit page.
- Publication form.
- Submission/Movie machine-readable info.
- As tier filtering key.
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Ilari wrote:
Regarding the middle tier, the boring option would be to give it some generic name and NULL icon, which would mostly hide the name from users.
I think the places where tiers with NULL icon shows up are:
- Publication edit page.
- Publication header edit page.
- Publication form.
- Submission/Movie machine-readable info.
- As tier filtering key.
I've read and believe I understand your proposal, Adelikat.
My thoughts on your tier system are as follows:
* I believe that not near enough high-quality runs have stars or moons as things currently stand, and since I've been here, I don't recall any new entries coming in with stars. Thus, setting actual, hard criterion for Star or Moon status is, I believe, an excellent thing to do.
* Stars: Not near enough TASes on this site that deserve stars have stars, in my opinion, and they had absolutely no criteria set for determining what should receive one, near's I can tell; they were chosen arbitrarily by the staff when they actually realized "hey, this is really, really awesome." I think your notion to set criteria for stars and what those criteria are is very sound logic.
* Moons: As far as I can tell, moons were previously only for precedents and other such highly-notable cases, making it the only honor that really ever got bestowed upon anything based on certain loose criteria. It was never really used for what I originally perceived to be its intended purpose (any notable movie, not just precedents). In my opinion, what you're suggesting here is only a slight change from what I thought moons were supposed to be for in the first place, which I fully support.
* Vault: I think this is an excellent category for anything that's just straight-up, be it somewhat entertaining or no, for the sake of having an accepted TAS for a game on the site where otherwise there would not be a published run. I'm all for this idea.
* Last but not least, as for the matter of the poll. I previously would have said (without your new tier proposal) that no, you shouldn't abolish Bad Game Choice as a rejection criteria, but you should be far more lenient with it. However, the way I'd vote - taking your new tier system into account - would be Yes. If your new tier system is enacted, there's absolutely no reason I can think of to retain Bad Game Choice as a reason for rejection; any TAS can at the very least be accepted as a Vault submission. However, I can't simply vote "Yes" or "No" to the issue when the poll question does not clarify if your new system is to be taken into account, as my answer is dependent upon whether it gets enacted or not, so I'm going to have to abstain from voting on the poll as the question is currently worded.
Overall, I agree with your proposal, and I say it's about time more games got the stars or moons they deserved.
1/60 of a second is important; every frame matters.
Warp, I don't think you reading the proposal, because your questions I think are CLEARLY answered, please make an attempt to find your answers there.
I must admit that I just cannot find anything that would even remotely hint at an answer to whether a new "gruefood revival" event will be held or not. If you would be so kind to redirect me or quote the relevant part, I would be grateful.
I must admit that I just cannot find anything that would even remotely hint at an answer to whether a new "gruefood revival" event will be held or not. If you would be so kind to redirect me or quote the relevant part, I would be grateful.
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Gruefood revival has been mentioned in this thread already. The answer is yes, there will be.
As for technical requirements of the vault, they are mentioned in the proposal. My intent is that the movies need not be perfect, but need to come off as impressive, or at least not obviously flawed.
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Ace Of Hearts wrote:
* Stars: Not near enough TASes on this site that deserve stars have stars, in my opinion
To clarify, until now, 3-5% of all movies was the guideline by which Baxter was going by when determining the number of starred movies. By it being poorly maintained, and the number of publications doubling, it is now much smaller than that. And in my proposal I'm talking about bumping it to 5-10%. So we are talking about as many as 100 stars based on current publication numbers; more than doubling the number of starred movies.
the poll question does not clarify if your new system is to be taken into account, as my answer is dependent upon whether it gets enacted or not
The vagueness was intentional. Because, not knowing the response this proposal would get, I still wanted to gauge how the audience felt about game choice, because any new system needs to take this opinion into account. My spidey senses led me to believe that the poll would run about 75% in favor of getting rid of game choice rejections, enough that any new system should involve more game choice.
My thoughts, with some wording fixes. Add a Demo tier for runs done by bots, hacks, multitases and such stuff.
Note that tier must be decided by how awesome/boring is the run, not by what categry it belongs to. Categorization is a whole different thing. I suggest having several systems of distplaying our movies.
Navigation by game name, showing all runs for a game anyway
Navigation by platform considering 3 displaying options:
Tiers
Listing default categories for every game, with links to all categories (AKA game name page).
Current view, all categories for all games
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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