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Just to wade into this pointless debate, Yoshi's Island 100%, the TAS of 2013 and some people's TAS of all time, duplicates red coins. If it's good enough for that TAS it's good enough for any.
Patashu
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Spikestuff wrote:
I'm putting my foot down at star dupes. Why? Well... Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of Time: Golden Skulltula duplication is banned for 100%.
For two reasons: 1) If you dupe one gold skulltulla sure you get enough gold skulltullas for the rewards sure, but your gold skulltulla screen on the inventory is not 100% filled out. Also, it doesn't contribute to the goal of 'showing off the game'. Same reason why RBA is banned.
Croc - Legend of the Gobbos: Gobbo duping is not allowed/banned.
Because you can do it infinitely almost anywhere, the gobbos count globally and it's not interesting to do a speedrun where it's allowed. However, in SM64 you can't dupe a star - if you grab a fake clone of it, you BRING the one copy of the star that exists to you, and it can only be done after it spawns, so all you can do with the glitch is cut down travel time. It's not game breaking to allow fake clone stars.
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So basically, the "clone" glitch: * Can only get a star where you already fulfilled the requirements to make it appear * Does NOT allow you to "double count" any star to your total * Only serves to move an existing star to your location (EDIT: or get 255 coins or other silly things) This doesn't appear to interfere with any 100% definitions. Except possibly coin records.
THC98
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FatRatKnight wrote:
So basically, the "clone" glitch: * Can only get a star where you already fulfilled the requirements to make it appear * Does NOT allow you to "double count" any star to your total * Only serves to move an existing star to your location (EDIT: or get 255 coins or other silly things) This doesn't appear to interfere with any 100% definitions. Except possibly coin records.
To actually double count the star you'd need to unload the original star after cloning it (like what is done to clone coins), which will give you a clone that can only be used for one frame, as it unloads in the next frame.
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^But the difference is that the level ends right after you pick up "one of the stars"; you can't go back and pick up the other star.
THC98
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Zowayix wrote:
^But the difference is that the level ends right after you pick up "one of the stars"; you can't go back and pick up the other star.
When you do red coins + 100 coins, the level ends after picking the red coins star, the 100 coins star doesn't make you exit the level. So my theory was clonning the red coins star (which pannenkoek said that is possible) after the 2 stars animation, then throw the star, take the 100 coins star, and then take the red coins clonned star.
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Patashu
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Q u a d r u p l e S t a r Link to video
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XkyRauh
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Patashu wrote:
Q u a d r u p l e S t a r Link to video
And how long did the setup on that take? How did they even get the bullies way over there!? O.o
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XkyRauh wrote:
Patashu wrote:
Q u a d r u p l e S t a r
And how long did the setup on that take? How did they even get the bullies way over there!? O.o
If it was done in real time, he must've had insane patience to restart everytime the bullies touch the lava. lol
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Actually, pannenkoek is using tools now with Mupen64. On the description of the video, they explain how to get the bullies to move around freely, pointing to a previous video. Anyway, this doesn't save any time anywhere, of course, but it looks mighty cool.
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TheKDX7
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Link to video Really cool free run
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Patashu wrote:
The Science of Cloning by pannenkoek2012. Cloning is deterministic and you can plan what you clone when by following some simple rules. Link to video In the comments a TAS/RTA application is suggested - cloning the 8 red coins star (so you don't have to walk over to where it is, you can just release it and get it)
wow this is a great video. a really clear explanation. use-after-free vulns are the best :P i wonder if there's any way to get more generic memory corruption from this? the fact that the game crashes when there's >240 objects looks promising
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holy fuck that ending to the ttm freerun was rediculous
Patashu
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Link to video Based pannenkoek12 reduces A presses required from 6 to 4 through the use of 63 (!!) goomba clones.
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That was impressive! Now I want to see a full game run with minimal A-presses. No matter how long and boring it may be, I would watch it!
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
sack_bot
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Patashu wrote:
Link to video
Am I right in assuming you don't need quite that many?
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sack_bot wrote:
Am I right in assuming you don't need quite that many?
If I understand what he wrote in the video description, only 50 were needed to get into the warp pipe and the rest were "for the sake of convenience" or to enable getting the red coin under the stairs as well. He also noted that each of those necessary 50 depended "on previous goombas in order to be placed at a greater distance".
Patashu
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andypanther wrote:
That was impressive! Now I want to see a full game run with minimal A-presses. No matter how long and boring it may be, I would watch it!
I want to see it too! But pannenkoek2012 is finding A press improvements frequently enough (he uploaded a new one today) that it's too early to start one - you wouldn't even want to do a testrun because some minimum A press strats require such insane labours (dozens of clones, etc) that you wouldn't want to do them unless it's going in some kind of final product. :)
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Hello SM64 People! So we're hacking away at the documentary and there's a part where we're using SM64 as an example of how TASes tend to evolve over the times. We have a set of 4 movies for the game each of which use a different technique (as I understand) for entering Dire Dire Docks. Here are their movie numbers and links to where it happens. 2062 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV7nJwt2zhc&t=22m15s 849 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZOBdU_5zlA&t=10m55s 987 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxJ1k7tBpNM&t=2m38s 2016 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDkxRA7yxLY&t=2m21s The first one is just there to show the normal method. I know that movie is out of chronology. So I wanted to ask if anyone has a little time to help us with this. We need a short description (may use technical jargon as needed) of the tricks that made each improvement possible specifically with regards to how this door was tackled (can't talk about everything). You could write it in this thread, or respond here stating you're doing it and send me a PM if it's a bit out of place. Thanks! SV
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Svimmer wrote:
Hello SM64 People! So we're hacking away at the documentary and there's a part where we're using SM64 as an example of how TASes tend to evolve over the times. We have a set of 4 movies for the game each of which use a different technique (as I understand) for entering Dire Dire Docks. Here are their movie numbers and links to where it happens.
I think it should be rewritten, since the goal of all these video is to get to the Bowser's level that is behind the Dire Dire Dock level(also that the last one doesn't even enter to Dire Dire Dock) Nice choice of TAS evolution! :)
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Yeah, I was the one who suggested those (but didn't TAS them obviously). Here's the breakdown according to my understanding. -Game is about collecting 'stars', with minor doors requiring so many stars to open. Major doors which are loading points require Keys, earned after defeating each Bowser boss battle. -Backwards Long Jump glitch (BLJ). When using longjumps, you can steer Mario backwards, which when landing on a slope/staircase can enable another BLJ, whose speed will be added to the previous. This can be used in succession to reach incredible high speeds. This can be done to go through minor doors, but not the locked ones. This means the game can be done by glitching through all minor doors to get to Bowser battles, getting key, and then using that to unlock the next loaded area, IE next floor of the castle. The exception here being this one door. -This door is supposed to require 30 stars to open, then when you get inside, mysteriously there's just yet another level entrance (Dire Dire Docks), making you think what the point was, and why was this one so special? But the neat thing is, once you complete the first star in that level, the DDD entrance portal itself moves backwards, revealing the TRUE reason why you're in here: There's a portal to Bowser #2 behind it. (See 23m52s). So since pretty much everything can be glitched before/after, this was a heavy choke point to determine what was needed to finish the game, as different glitches required different set ups, and thus different amounts of stars to be collected. -70 stars. Intentional, 30 stars to get in, 1 star to shift portal, thus 31 stars to get to Bowser #2. Final door in game requires 70 stars. -16 stars. When you've collected 15 stars, MIPS the rabbit spawns in the basement. If you capture him, you get a star (ignored), but with proper positioning you can drop him through doors, taking him to this place, and jumping between him/wall to clip through this door. This negates needing 30, but since you still need DDD portal to be shifted, this route therefore requires 15+1=16 stars. -1 star. Finally after enough testing, the nearby small staircase could finally be used to to initiate BLJ, despite being perpendicular to where we needed it. With stalling/ricocheting off a nearby pillar it was finally enough to get through the door, requiring 0 to get in! Still need DDD shifting though, so grand total to finish game was 0+1=1 star. -0 stars, finally with enough precision the BLJ here could not only take Mario through the 30 star door, but still have enough speed left over to get through DDD too. Thus 0 stars needed to get to this place, as well as all the others. Final total to finish game, 0 stars. Hence the shortened descriptions you'll find in the original post here
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Thanks for the info Flip! I'll review this later and reply to the thread if I need something more.