This is a TAS of Duke Nukem 3D for SEGA Genesis on the hardest difficulty and on this difficulty the game is really hard!
However, the game is hard itself and I'm not astonished that 3D Realms spent about (~) 25 minutes on each map!
Game objectives
Emulator used: Gens-rerecording 11A
Take damage to save the time
Hardest difficulty
Manipulation of "friendly" monsters
Tricks:
The game is insomuch simple and hard that I have found only one trick! There is no necessity in RAM Watch to manipulate the highest damage: all dameges are constant!
Manipulation of "friendly" monsters:
There are situations when monsters at once shoot in Duke when they cognize him, but if they cognize him some frames before or later, they actually walk up to 3 seconds!
I didn't use it all the time, only if necessity!
Main game explanations:
As most of us don't know this virtuoso port, I'll explain the working of game mechanics:
Enemies are not an obstacle for player. He can actually go through them!
Enemies can't hit the player if he runs aside (probably they don't take the anticipation)!
Enemies can't hit each other, only drone's blow up (At least I saw that laser had flown through the Pig Cop).
Switches and doors can be opened/switched only if player looks straightly at them!
There is no damage manipulation, so during the rocket's or drone's blow up (splash) you or take full damage or don't take any!
Map explanations:
Map 1 - Spaceport (2:23):
It was hard to avoid from monsters lasers! In the end I took 3 shots to pass the map faster.
Map 2 - The Incubator (2:23):
Enemies were badly placed in the room and I needed to kill some! I repassed this map for 2 times, but after some practice and changing route, I managed to do the best! I needed the medkit anyway to take damage in some places on the next maps.
Map 3 - Secret Laser (2:33):
Was difficult only the first room with 2 blow-up drones and Pig Cop (shotgunner).
Map 4 - Lunar Space (2:56):
Hoping on the best, I tried to teleport in open space without spacesuit, but my health went down very fast =) The control in space is very hard: you move even when you turn! I'd like to play in pacifist while waiting for lift in some rooms, but I had lost my temper on that!
Map 5 - Occupied Territory (2:58):
A problem with dodging the bullets, but in my mind this map is the best!
Map 6 - Mortal Prison (1:47):
It doesn't seem to be! I decided not to turn often, the route is great!
Oh yeah, intentional killing in TAS. As I needed my health for the next map, I just couldn't save fat commander's life: he damaged me twice while I was entering the card and I lost about 80 HP!
Map 7 - Fatal Wind (2:42):
The wind wasn't fatal in the room with the blue card, but it would be good if it was turned off! I spent about 100 rerecords on the first room to take minimum damage! Another medkit was taken to stay alife.
(Description will be supplemented now!)
Map 8 - Electric Station (4:01)
In spite on maps hardship, I repasses it for 2 times on finding the way to bypass the lighting after I took the blue card! Most players take double damage from it because they try to bypass the lighting and their speed is not fast enough! In general, the map is interesing.
Map 9 - Overlord (2:08):
The music says right: it's as easy as the first map! The map has lots of unnecessary areas: everyone can become interested what is that teleport on the floor upper! The difficulty was killing battlelord without taking damage from brains.
Noxxa: This run is shown to be suboptimal in multiple areas. Even just the opening menu is improvable by nearly a full second. Rejecting for optimization issues.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6436
Location: The land down under.
Yea, it's not enough.
You can probably sub 24:10
I you told the issues with this TAS and you fixed 2 of the 3.
But some stages just doesn't seem to right.
No Vote.
For your future TAS on this please have "Lag Frame Count" on.
Grind out everything with the game and make sure you do each input correctly.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Hey Dimon, are you familiar with your frame counter/input display settings on Gens?
If you haven't already done so, you can display them on your emulator screen by clicking the OPTIONS tab at the top, and choosing 'General...' from the menu. From there, another window will pop up.
Click the three circled options. Having these frame numbers displayed allows you to precisely determine the earliest (optimal) possible input, especially when used along with frame advance.
Hope any of this helps!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Interesting... I had no idea someone would even attempt to port Duke Nukem 3D for Genesis.
Oh, I see. They did not use Duke Nukem 3D engine. They used their earlier engine, used in e.g. R.O.T.T., which is of the same generation as that in Wolfenstein 3D.
Still, an impressive accomplishment on a tile-based console.
As for the TAS, well, maybe I am not very acclimated to 3D games, but nothing horribly unoptimized jumped on my eyes when I first watched it. Then again, I was mostly focused on marvelling the game port rather than at watching the TAS.
Yea, it's not enough.
You can probably sub 24:10
I you told the issues with this TAS and you fixed 2 of the 3.
But some stages just doesn't seem to right.
No Vote.
For your future TAS on this please have "Lag Frame Count" on.
Grind out everything with the game and make sure you do each input correctly.
Is it depends on me?? I think it doesn't!
In general I should repass every start hoping that frame counter counts up less frames!??? If so, I would call it idiocy!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Interesting... I had no idea someone would even attempt to port Duke Nukem 3D for Genesis.
Oh, I see. They did not use Duke Nukem 3D engine. They used their earlier engine, used in e.g. R.O.T.T., which is of the same generation as that in Wolfenstein 3D.
Still, an impressive accomplishment on a tile-based console.
As for the TAS, well, maybe I am not very acclimated to 3D games, but nothing horribly unoptimized jumped on my eyes when I first watched it. Then again, I was mostly focused on marvelling the game port rather than at watching the TAS.
Honestly, I just came up with the idea to TAS this game! I don't know why I TASed it! This port isn't popular, it's fundamentally different from other ports and 90% of people watched this because of the name!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6436
Location: The land down under.
Dimon12321 wrote:
Is it depends on me?? I think it doesn't!
Actually. Yes, it does depend on you.
Also I never mentioned in my statement in anything that falls (aka depends) on you.
But I'm going to say, "You shouldn't blame yourself."
You had the lack of knowledge on how to TAS to a proper degree.
"Some things are beyond your control."
It is acceptable. All humans can stuff up.
All humans aren't "perfect."
We are who we are.
It's a fact. Don't get upset over the small.
Just try again.
See what you can do with the new knowledge we have given you.
Dimon12321 wrote:
I should repass every start hoping that frame counter counts up less frames!?
I'm going to try not to attack you in the forums. I'll try and keep it simple.
We know the issue.
Heck, we knew you didn't have a lag counter running when I did this.
You need to know what works and what doesn't while TASing.
You can have the lag counter going and hold the inputs you want to do.
You're input will not go in. Only until the lag counter is white.
This is the game itself.
It's not your fault.
We're trying to carry you through this.
Personally I want to actually see a better TAS which would end up in the vault then have a mistake TAS that no-one thought about or actually questioned... even past me.
TASing takes time mostly.
You cannot just click your fingers and go "Yup I'm done, I've got the time I wanted and it's beautiful."
Others will find flaws, pointing them out to others.
The others will look into it too and agree with the issues.
TASVideos is a bit more strict with the TASes that come in.
Dimon12321 wrote:
I would call it idiocy!
It's not stupid, we noticed some flaws.
To quote what I wrote a few lines earlier.
"You had the lack of knowledge on how to TAS to a proper degree."
It is life.
Life will only stop when you stop.
Don't let go of life but most importantly, never give up on anything you want to achieve.
To Note: The "mistake TAS" I have mentioned was actually improved on (not by much) but even that had issues notable. That TAS was rejected.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Actually. Yes, it does depend on you.
Also I never mentioned in my statement in anything that falls (aka depends) on you.
But I'm going to say, "You shouldn't blame yourself."
You had the lack of knowledge on how to TAS to a proper degree.
"Some things are beyond your control."
It is acceptable. All humans can stuff up.
All humans aren't "perfect."
We are who we are.
It's a fact. Don't get upset over the small.
Just try again.
See what you can do with the new knowledge we have given you.
Dimon12321 wrote:
I should repass every start hoping that frame counter counts up less frames!?
I'm going to try not to attack you in the forums. I'll try and keep it simple.
We know the issue.
Heck, we knew you didn't have a lag counter running when I did this.
You need to know what works and what doesn't while TASing.
You can have the lag counter going and hold the inputs you want to do.
You're input will not go in. Only until the lag counter is white.
This is the game itself.
It's not your fault.
We're trying to carry you through this.
Personally I want to actually see a better TAS which would end up in the vault then have a mistake TAS that no-one thought about or actually questioned... even past me.
TASing takes time mostly.
You cannot just click your fingers and go "Yup I'm done, I've got the time I wanted and it's beautiful."
Others will find flaws, pointing them out to others.
The others will look into it too and agree with the issues.
TASVideos is a bit more strict with the TASes that come in.
Dimon12321 wrote:
I would call it idiocy!
It's not stupid, we noticed some flaws.
To quote what I wrote a few lines earlier.
"You had the lack of knowledge on how to TAS to a proper degree."
It is life.
Life will only stop when you stop.
Don't let go of life but most importantly, never give up on anything you want to achieve.
To Note: The "mistake TAS" I have mentioned was actually improved on (not by much) but even that had issues notable. That TAS was rejected.
Thank you for explanation and reading the moral!
I still don't understand my influence on it! In wiki I read:
In the case of weak computing power system or unintended actions of the player, the program may not be able to make all necessary calculations in the time before the screen is updated. Then all the remaining steps (including the updating of images) are transferred to the next frame.
I watched my TAS again and noticed that in total the difference between frame counter and lag frame counter is about 15000 frames, which were increasing during all the game! Interesting, what unintended actions I did in the run? If you told that it's not my fault, so why you'd been talking about it? Anyway it's not important. What should I stick with (about lag frame counter)? There was no lag frames discussion in my Doom 64 run! Probably N64 is strong and just don't need it!If all people aren't "perfect", so why we don't accept... OK, I won't touch the philosophy! I know the answer.
"never give up"... I remember Churchill's talking on this theme! Maybe I
unconsciously do my runs, but now I'm convinced that even if I TAS a game on all rules (what actually I did before), people will find mistakes anyway!
I watched lots of TAS movie from the yard, which I played myself before on my Famicom and Mega Drive and some runs were rejected because there is the same game on more modern port, so I'm not sure this port will be published as it's already TASed on N64!
Probably all =)
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Dimon12321 wrote:
"never give up"... I remember Churchill's talking on this theme! Maybe I
unconsciously do my runs, but now I'm convinced that even if I TAS a game on all rules (what actually I did before), people will find mistakes anyway!
Exactly. Over the 10 years, as this site exists, the average quality if TASes increased very much. What was okay 8 years ago wouldn't work now. 5 year old runs still stand. We have many skilled TASers that absolutize perfection. And the info base is always filled in, just look at threads for popular games. So I'd say, now it's really really hard to compete with these skilled players, unless you become one of them. Because when people spend months on one run (Tompa once spent 2 weeks on 1 saved frame), it's nearly impossible to make a run where no one would see flaws. But who is familiar with TASing has a feeling of what is good enough, and what is sloppy. Which is the border of acceptance here: it should be good enough.
When a TAS is good enough? Not when the author says "I don't know how to improve", but when he says "I redid the levels several times, saving fames all the time, and now I don't know how to improve more". It's all about how much you redo. So don't be afraid to try redoing whatever is done (be it a room, or a kill) so many times that you are sure it's fastest.
http://tasvideos.org/TasingGuide/TASArt.htmlDimon12321 wrote:
I watched lots of TAS movie from the yard, which I played myself before on my Famicom and Mega Drive and some runs were rejected because there is the same game on more modern port, so I'm not sure this port will be published as it's already TASed on N64!
Probably all =)
Yes, each system can have its port accepted, unless they are deliberately identical.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6436
Location: The land down under.
Dimon12321 wrote:
I watched my TAS again and noticed that in total the difference between frame counter and lag frame counter is about 15000 frames.
14977 which is about a time of 4:09.56 of actual input.
Dimon12321 wrote:
Which was increasing during all the game!
I repeat, this depends on the game.
Instage some games won't have any lag frames and only lags during loading screens.
Instage some games will lag majority of the time (eg Duke Nukem/Crash Nitro Kart(GBA))
Dimon12321 wrote:
Interesting, what unintended actions did I do in the run?
Misplacing your input (put input in lag frames (especially the important ones)) during the TAS.
Dimon12321 wrote:
If you told that it's not my fault, so why you'd been talking about it?
After realizing what you didn't have running in both TASes you have produced for us it was evident that we needed to tell you what to do.
The lack of knowledge on the emulator is crucial.
By noting that.
I am not blaming you.
I am blaming the TAS itself.
Dimon12321 wrote:
Anyway it's not important. What should I stick with (about lag frame counter)?
You use both.
The Lag Counter tells you when you can put input.
The Frame Counter reminds you about the Lag Counter to get the optimal input.
So you note when Lag finishes on Frame Count and execute that button input.
Dimon12321 wrote:
There was no lag frames discussion in my Doom 64 run! Probably N64 is strong and just don't need it!
Even though this has been stroked out I will address this as a normal point.
The main discussion on Doom 64 was how unoptimal your movement was.
You would still need the Lag Counter to know when to do your input.
Reason why I didn't join in on that conversation adding that point is because of the emulator itself.
Since you are working on Doom 64 again I have two simple questions.
Did you check if your menu navigation was optimal?
Did you make sure that the Frame and Lag Counters are Running?
If you cannot find the two counters, I suggest switching from Mupen64 to Bizhawk.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
There was no lag frames discussion in my Doom 64 run! Probably N64 is strong and just don't need it!
Even though this has been stroked out I will address this as a normal point.
The main discussion on Doom 64 was how unoptimal your movement was.
You would still need the Lag Counter to know when to do your input.
Reason why I didn't join in on that conversation adding that point is because of the emulator itself.
Since you are working on Doom 64 again I have two simple questions.
Did you check if your menu navigation was optimal?
Did you make sure that the Frame and Lag Counters are Running?
If you cannot find the two counters, I suggest switching from Mupen64 to Bizhawk.[/quote]
Thank you for all that! I don't know about Bizhawk: in slow motion it's very annoying me with its sound! RAM Watch is difficult too: all I need is monster's HP, but I hadn't found any adresses (on all changes: size in bytes and render type) which have even close value to believable HP, so I kill each monster till it won't die after lowest shots! And you want to say, if I will press buttons only when frame counter is white, the game will play faster (maybe not during the play in Duke Nukem where each 4th frame is lagged)?? If so, I just can lose my wish to TAS games!
I don't understand why did he spent 2 week on 1 frame?? No-one will try to reTAS the game for just some frames! I understand that main event in TASing games is world record, but why do we put on the second place the surprising of people?? Is it not enough fast?? Nobody reached even close time in their speedruns! In general, don't answer on this! Thanks for explanation again! Reject my movie! I go out... Good luck!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Dimon12321 wrote:
I don't understand why did he spent 2 week on 1 frame??
Because he is obsessed loves what he's doing. It's never required to spend weeks on frames, but quite some dedication is usually needed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Dimon12321 wrote:
And you want to say, if I will press buttons only when frame counter is white, the game will play faster (maybe not during the play in Duke Nukem where each 4th frame is lagged)?? If so, I just can lose my wish to TAS games!
Dimon, when your frame counter is white, that is when the game accepts your input (the buttons you are pressing on a frame). When the frame counter is red, the game currently is not accepting input. That's a major reason why displaying your frame counters are important.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
And you want to say, if I will press buttons only when frame counter is white, the game will play faster (maybe not during the play in Duke Nukem where each 4th frame is lagged)?? If so, I just can lose my wish to TAS games!
Dimon, when your frame counter is white, that is when the game accepts your input (the buttons you are pressing on a frame). When the frame counter is red, the game currently is not accepting input. That's a major reason why displaying your frame counters are important.
Not very important. Nothing scary if I start to do something a frame later (i.e. if I pressed a key when the counter is red)!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Dimon12321 wrote:
Not very important. Nothing scary if I start to do something a frame later (i.e. if I pressed a key when the counter is red)!
Actually, let me explain one important reason why doing something on a 'red frame' can hurt your run and cost time. For example, say you are running down a hallway in Duke Nukem while holding the UP key. If you hold that UP key when the frames go from 'white' to 'red', you are wasting time because you could have made a new movement once the frames became 'white' again.
In my case, the game I'm currently working on has a lot of lag frames, and I need to make sure not to keep a button held during lag. Otherwise, I'm wasting time.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Not very important. Nothing scary if I start to do something a frame later (i.e. if I pressed a key when the counter is red)!
Actually, let me explain one important reason why doing something on a 'red frame' can hurt your run and cost time. For example, say you are running down a hallway in Duke Nukem while holding the UP key. If you hold that UP key when the frames go from 'white' to 'red', you are wasting time because you could have made a new movement once the frames became 'white' again.
In my case, the game I'm currently working on has a lot of lag frames, and I need to make sure not to keep a button held during lag. Otherwise, I'm wasting time.
Does it actually work like that? I thought during a lag frame the game doesn't read input, so you can 'skip' all lag frames.
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Patashu wrote:
Does it actually work like that? I thought during a lag frame the game doesn't read input, so you can 'skip' all lag frames.
That''s a good point. In particular, I've noticed that the game I'm working on allows you to "rapid fire" D-pad movements while in battle. Meaning, I move much faster by inputing 'LEFT, skip a frame, LEFT, skip a frame, etc.', instead of just holding the button down. In that case, if a lag frame would've popped up during that sequence, I'd lose time because the game would be reading my previous input before/after the lag frame instead of a new one.
It's definitely not the case for all games; but for Dimon's case, it could be a time saver if game is programmed similarly.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Not very important. Nothing scary if I start to do something a frame later (i.e. if I pressed a key when the counter is red)!
Actually, let me explain one important reason why doing something on a 'red frame' can hurt your run and cost time. For example, say you are running down a hallway in Duke Nukem while holding the UP key. If you hold that UP key when the frames go from 'white' to 'red', you are wasting time because you could have made a new movement once the frames became 'white' again.
In my case, the game I'm currently working on has a lot of lag frames, and I need to make sure not to keep a button held during lag. Otherwise, I'm wasting time.
Another you explanation isn't important. I carefully look after everything during the run and if I do sth wrong or lose time, I load a savestate and do it again =)
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6436
Location: The land down under.
Dimon12321 wrote:
I just can lose my wish to TAS games!
Don't say that.
This is my 3rd year I have been on this site.
A lot has changed since then.
Back when I started TASing I was terrible.
Even my first thousand posts are at the level of Kurabupengin's posts today.
I was probably easily hated by other users, which I understand as I look back.
What you have done so far has been set in stone, this stone cannot be destroyed.
It shows who you are and what you're trying to archive.
The current TASes I have created and became accepted are all junk.
They're "superhuman"-input as they're all arcade based games.
But this creates a step to understand how to optimize on your mistakes.
Currently I'm trying to update 2 different TASes created by 2 other users, it takes time.
I do hate it, trying to do something over and over again it's a loop.
Remember: Everyone has been on the same boat as you.
Have fun, do whatever you want, muck about.
Just don't give up, especially on a game that would decline input.
Something that does this becomes a challenge.
Hard as it may be the reward will be always waiting for you.
Now. ars.
You have been on a constant loop explaining one thing.
Stop it, Dimon has already got this point and he already understands.
You're out of line on what you have been writing so far.
I won't explain why because it's quite clear.
Read all your posts you have created in this forum.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
My mistake. Didn't think he understood what was being explained.
edit: And to be frank, I disagree on this whole "out of line" part. I was offering a more detailed explanation on something which I thought he wasn't grasping. Turns out it wasn't the case, and he let me know.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Back when I started TASing I was terrible.
Even my first thousand posts are at the level of Kurabupengin's posts today.
I was probably easily hated by other users, which I understand as I look back.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6436
Location: The land down under.
Kurabupengin:
Basically it's the way you post.
Actual and Random (nearly off-topic) ones.
As long as you write something random then post it.
You were my easiest example of someone who acted like past me.
ars:
He understood at your first point.
Then you continued to talk about lag counts and frame counts.
Which I summed (with Ilari's 2 cents too) up in a non-broken record in 2 different posts.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
If you haven't already done so, you can display them on your emulator screen by clicking the OPTIONS tab at the top, and choosing 'General...' from the menu. From there, another window will pop up.
Click the three circled options. Having these frame numbers displayed allows you to precisely determine the earliest (optimal) possible input, especially when used along with frame advance.
Hope any of this helps!
