In case of the Cloud glitch you substitute some of the games code with your own in order to call the game-end routine prematurely.
But my point with the cloud glitch is that you don't have to. You can do the cloud glitch and not reprogram the game or end it immediately or anything. It's like Mario, just because the warp zone is open, it doesn't mean I have to use it.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
Sounds about right, but again, you're still basically deciding that [x] glitch/variant of [x] glitch is okay because it doesn't skip as much. as [y] glitch.
No. You're wording it in an intentionally deceiving way, or clearly don't have any idea of the glitches. The distinction of orb and cloud is that one relies on actively manipulating memory in order to allow the executing code to get a good result (it's ACE), whereas the other doesn't require that at all (not ACE). In the orb the code follows the same path every time, but with cloud, the results are unpredictable without heavy manipulation. They may be similar in appearance but I assure you they're entirely different, and there's therefore a clear distinction between the glitched and warped runs.
And please have some respect for our run. Calling out to obsolete our run because you don't understand the glitches used is insulting.
Sounds about right, but again, you're still basically deciding that [x] glitch/variant of [x] glitch is okay because it doesn't skip as much. as [y] glitch.
No. The amount it is skipping is irrelevant to our stance. The means of achieving the skip is how we are making out categories with this game.
If you have a problem with mega man, you can talk about it in the mega man topic. If you have a problem with alttp, you can talk about it in the alttp topic.
While I don't agree with andrew about the ACE run beating the game or not‚ I think that we should use the cloud in a warped run for two reasons :
1. As Masterjun said before‚ getting the cloud doesn't require ACE (looks like some people didn't get it‚ I can understand that it's not obvious). So you can get the cloud and not use ACE‚ because avoiding ACE is one of the aims of the "warps" category.
2. I personally think that this site should always provide to viewers a run of the fastest category possible in real-time‚ or at least that only uses tricks possible in real-time with semi-consistency.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
1. As Masterjun said before‚ getting the cloud doesn't require ACE (looks like some people didn't get it‚ I can understand that it's not obvious). So you can get the cloud and not use ACE‚ because avoiding ACE is one of the aims of the "warps" category.
Masterjun wrote:
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
Maybe don't misquote Masterjun in the future ;)
If it helps to think about it this way:
Real time runs that use the clouds are actually attempts at the 'arbitrary code execution' category, except the most they can do with it is get the cloud because they're weak meatbags that can't jump to the credits in real time.
So we already have a TAS that's the same category as this route - it's the 44 second TAS Masterjun already submitted!
This thread hurts my head so I'm just gonna define some things by how i understand them and if something is wrong then one of the smart guys can correct me.
-item swap: glitch used to eat a chuck (among other things)
-eat-chuck glitch: eating a chuck to get stuff in the item box (among other things)
-orb glitch: eating a clapping chuck as fire mario to get an orb in the item box
-cloud glitch: naive name conceived by the RTA community that describes eating a charging chuck as small mario to get a cloud in the item box without crashing the game (personally i think the name 'cloud glitch' would be better suited for the glitch where you manipulate bowser's animations using the cloud, if anything)
-ACE: manipulating code to make the game do what you want
-total control: limitless ACE (there might not really be a difference)
-open bus: i have NO IDEA. I think it lets you do ACE via eat-chuck?? oh god you nerds are too smart for me
side effects of orb glitch include:
-yoshi's graphics sometimes get fucked up for a split second
-yoshi sometimes turns around
-sometimes a nearby block gets copied onto layer 2
-idk
side effects of cloud glitch include
-activating open bus (i guess?). can either crash, not crash, or do pretty much whatever you want depending on how it's manipulated
btw, first post! HEY GUYS!
1. As Masterjun said before‚ getting the cloud doesn't require ACE (looks like some people didn't get it‚ I can understand that it's not obvious). So you can get the cloud and not use ACE‚ because avoiding ACE is one of the aims of the "warps" category.
Masterjun wrote:
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
Real time runs that use the clouds are actually attempts at the 'arbitrary code execution' category, except the most they can do with it is get the cloud because they're weak meatbags that can't jump to the credits in real time.
I don't agree with this. If a glitch has a side-effect, you can decide not to use it because you aim for fastest time without using this side-effect, but use the main effect : that's what real-time runners do, they use the cloud glitch to get a cloud (main effect) without using ACE (side-effect), and they don't try to use it.
In my opinion, what matters to decide which category you're in is your intention. If you decide not to use ACE (by waiting for the game to switch back to normal code for ACE), then you're in the warped category, because you're trying to beat the game as fast as possible without using ACE.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2795
Location: Northern California
Eszik wrote:
that's what real-time runners do, they use the cloud glitch to get a cloud (main effect) without using ACE (side-effect), and they don't try to use it.
It's not that they "don't try" to use ACE. ACE in general is literally impossible for a human being to do in real time on a console with an unmodded stock controller. If it WAS possible, RTA runners wouldn't just be satisfied with getting the cloud and still being able to play, they'd be trying to call the credits early in every run.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
that's what real-time runners do, they use the cloud glitch to get a cloud (main effect) without using ACE (side-effect), and they don't try to use it.
It's not that they "don't try" to use ACE. ACE in general is literally impossible for a human being to do in real time on a console with an unmodded stock controller. If it WAS possible, RTA runners wouldn't just be satisfied with getting the cloud and still being able to play, they'd be trying to call the credits early in every run.
But they would also use the cloud only as an item - and that would be a different category, because it would avoid ACE.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
But they would also use the cloud only as an item - and that would be a different category, because it would avoid ACE.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
The sole use of the cloud already leads to ACE. In fact, when others commented that real time runners don't use ACE, I think they just refer to them using ACE but only able to input 1 byte of instruction before the game stops reading from the controller after 1 frame.
that's what real-time runners do, they use the cloud glitch to get a cloud (main effect) without using ACE (side-effect), and they don't try to use it.
It's not that they "don't try" to use ACE. ACE in general is literally impossible for a human being to do in real time on a console with an unmodded stock controller. If it WAS possible, RTA runners wouldn't just be satisfied with getting the cloud and still being able to play, they'd be trying to call the credits early in every run.
But they would also use the cloud only as an item - and that would be a different category, because it would avoid ACE.
Well, there's no category where you do the save corruption in pokemon yellow then don't immediately warp to credits.
And there's no category in SotN where you do save corruption then don't immediately warp to credits.
that's what real-time runners do, they use the cloud glitch to get a cloud (main effect) without using ACE (side-effect), and they don't try to use it.
It's not that they "don't try" to use ACE. ACE in general is literally impossible for a human being to do in real time on a console with an unmodded stock controller. If it WAS possible, RTA runners wouldn't just be satisfied with getting the cloud and still being able to play, they'd be trying to call the credits early in every run.
But they would also use the cloud only as an item - and that would be a different category, because it would avoid ACE.
Well, there's no category where you do the save corruption in pokemon yellow then don't immediately warp to credits.
And there's no category in SotN where you do save corruption then don't immediately warp to credits.
Such a category in SMW would be using ACE and then not directly warping to the credits. Getting the cloud doesn't necesarily mean using ACE.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2795
Location: Northern California
ACE can't be avoided though. Cloud glitch apparently always crashes the game to open bus, and as far as I can understand the game has to be manipulated back into working, meaning at least one piece of input is sent to open bus, meaning arbitrary code is executed because of the way open bus works.
...At least I think that's how it works? I could be wrong.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
But they would also use the cloud only as an item - and that would be a different category, because it would avoid ACE.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
The sole use of the cloud already leads to ACE. In fact, when others commented that real time runners don't use ACE, I think they just refer to them using ACE but only able to input 1 byte of instruction before the game stops reading from the controller after 1 frame.
You're wrong. It doesn't.
Warning: Might glitch to creditsI will finish this ACE soon as possible
(or will I?)
Then you get bizarre instances like a "What if ALttP had ACE...?". Does the 2-minute run we have exist alongside the ACE one if the latter was faster?
Submit it and see in action. No one can foresee the decision.
Dyshonest wrote:
In the case of the Mega Man run, it is very obvious that both utilize some form of ACE.
That's a complete absurd.
Dyshonest: Why do you keep ignoring my question? And what exactly are you fighting for? For reducing the amount of SMW branches? I hardly see any productive goal of this recent flamewar.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
But they would also use the cloud only as an item - and that would be a different category, because it would avoid ACE.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
The sole use of the cloud already leads to ACE. In fact, when others commented that real time runners don't use ACE, I think they just refer to them using ACE but only able to input 1 byte of instruction before the game stops reading from the controller after 1 frame.
You're wrong. It doesn't.
Then why couldn't we use the cloud in a non-ACE run ?
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Then you get bizarre instances like a "What if ALttP had ACE...?". Does the 2-minute run we have exist alongside the ACE one if the latter was faster?
Submit it and see in action. No one can foresee the decision.
Dyshonest wrote:
In the case of the Mega Man run, it is very obvious that both utilize some form of ACE.
That's a complete absurd.
Dyshonest: Why do you keep ignoring my question? And what exactly are you fighting for? For reducing the amount of SMW branches? I hardly see any productive goal of this recent flamewar.
"That's a complete absurd."
What is? Both runs utilize ACE. One of them ends three different stages (very) prematurely with it, and the other run prematurely triggers credits sequence.
I'd like redundancy cut down so more "completing" runs can co-exist with the ACE/"game end glitch" runs. For instance, the Mega Man run prior to the 12-minute one featuring ACE (the 15-minute one by Deign) actually does complete all stages and bosses. Is it slower? Well, yes, but it doesn't use ACE in a seemingly sloppy manner.
Both runs utilize ACE. One of them ends three different stages (very) prematurely with it, and the other run prematurely triggers credits sequence.
Your problem with discussing such things is technical incompetence. The 12-minute run makes NMI occur during the normal bank-switching routine, not letting the game execution return to the proper bank, and forcing it execute the wrong bank's functions. That "wrong" function is counting up the score, like the level has ended. And then it actually ends. Everything is already in the game, and what happens isn't even memory corruption, it's just a simple bug being abused.
In the sub-1-minute run, the game execution pointer is tricked to execute RAM as ROM (so the functions it executes are in fact non-existent), and certain values are prepared in certain addresses. When the game runs through them, it ends.
The fact that the glitch in the 12-minute run isn't memory corruption is kind of proved by the fact that it didn't cause this tag's appearance, while Masterjun's SMW caused it, since the whole point was memory corruption.
Dyshonest wrote:
I'd like redundancy cut down so more "completing" runs can co-exist with the ACE/"game end glitch" runs.
Raising a flamewar isn't a proper method. The proper method would be convincing more people to support that option when the submission was being discussed. Now, after the decision was made, it still can be revised, it there are enough people who disagree. But there's not more of such people now, than were there during the very discussion. All you have to do now is deal with the decision. If some submission that really doesn't deserve those 2 branches is made, it will be discussed again, in a proper time.
You seem to be trying to introduce some policy, but it's already there, and called Moons. If you disagree with how they work, make a proper thread listing the issues. "Redundancy" is not a bug. It's a feature. And it's called "thoroughness" here.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
The 12-minute run makes NMI occur during the normal bank-switching routine, not letting the game execution return to the proper bank, and forcing it execute the wrong bank's functions. That "wrong" function is counting up the score, like the level has ended. And then it actually ends. Everything is already in the game, and what happens isn't even memory corruption, it's just a simple bug being abused.
Except the game doesn't return to normal function.
Your lifebar will NEVER reappear, numerous graphics will appear permanently messed up and so forth.
The fact that the glitch in the 12-minute run isn't memory corruption is kind of proved by the fact that it didn't cause this tag's appearance, while Masterjun's SMW caused it, since the whole point was memory corruption.
Um... lol?
Raising a flamewar isn't a proper method. The proper method would be convincing more people to support that option when the submission was being discussed. Now, after the decision was made, it still can be revised, it there are enough people who disagree. But there's not more of such people now, than were there during the very discussion. All you have to do now is deal with the decision. If some submission that really doesn't deserve those 2 branches is made, it will be discussed again, in a proper time.
You seem to be trying to introduce some policy, but it's already there, and called Moons. If you disagree with how they work, make a proper thread listing the issues. "Redundancy" is not a bug. It's a feature. And it's called "thoroughness" here.
Please show me any point where I was derogatory or otherwise "starting a flame war" before anyone else. Was I snarky in reply to some people after they were cursing at me and insulting me? Yes.
No I'm pretty sure you don't need a flash-mob to reverse or otherwise rediscuss already-made decisions. Who on earth made you think this?
Who said redundancy was a bug? What are you even talking about?
Except the game doesn't return to normal function.
Your lifebar will NEVER reappear, numerous graphics will appear permanently messed up and so forth.
The game is still normally running. Lifebar and graphics are either unrelated at all, or are caused by other glitches. Especially they have nothing to do with ACE.
Dyshonest wrote:
The fact that the glitch in the 12-minute run isn't memory corruption is kind of proved by the fact that it didn't cause this tag's appearance, while Masterjun's SMW caused it, since the whole point was memory corruption.
Um... lol?
The "Memory corruption" tag was brought up only at 1945M. MM1 glitched was done earlier, and that tag wasn't even thought of.
Dyshonest wrote:
No I'm pretty sure you don't need a flash-mob to reverse or otherwise rediscuss already-made decisions. Who on earth made you think this?
Then we're back to my original question. You want each minority's opinion be forced in the face of the majority? And the other one: What makes you think judgment revisions are a simple thing that can be canceled per random fart?
Dyshonest wrote:
Who said redundancy was a bug? What are you even talking about?
The decisions you're trying to revise are made according to our judging system. They're not the results of wholes in that system. Hence, what you're calling redundancy is not a mistake in the system, it's a deliberate feature we introduced tiers for. "It's not a bug, it's a feature" is a known meme, never heard of it?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
The game is still normally running. Lifebar and graphics are either unrelated at all, or are caused by other glitches. Especially they have nothing to do with ACE.
Once a game enters ACE mode, it will never return to normal function Masterjun said. And graphics being mutilated or missing isn't normal.
Then we're back to my original question. You want each minority's opinion be forced in the face of the majority? And the other one: What makes you think judgment revisions are a simple thing that can be canceled per random fart?
What makes you think judgment revisions require a century-long debate between God, Buddha and Shiva and other random mythical and rare beings?
The decisions you're trying to revise are made according to our judging system. They're not the results of wholes in that system. Hence, what you're calling redundancy is not a mistake in the system, it's a deliberate feature we introduced tiers for. "It's not a bug, it's a feature" is a known meme, never heard of it?
Then what does decide the judging system? You're making this sound more complicated than it ever is, and it's not just the broken English helping with that.
You horribly botched the meme... like really badly, but...
"Working as intended." is the meme. If you mean saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is what I think you were going for.
Once a game enters ACE mode, it will never return to normal function Masterjun said. And graphics being mutilated or missing isn't normal.
Why did you ignore the part where "ACE mode" is never entered in the 12-minute run?
Dyshonest wrote:
What makes you think judgment revisions require a century-long debate between God, Buddha and Shiva and other random mythical and rare beings?
Seeing for 4+ years how it was done, and doing it myself for 1.5 years. Now answer my questions.
Dyshonest wrote:
Then what does decide the judging system?
You didn't do anything to figure it out, I'm not doing it for you.
Dyshonest wrote:
You horribly botched the meme... like really badly, but...
"Working as intended." is the meme. If you mean saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is what I think you were going for.
How is that related to the topic?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Well, there's no category where you do the save corruption in pokemon yellow then don't immediately warp to credits.
And there's no category in SotN where you do save corruption then don't immediately warp to credits.
It's perfectly fine for TASes of a game to have different branches/categories than the RTAs for that game. After all, they are trying to achieve two different goals.
I think everybody's used to every TAS branch having a parallel in a real time run, but that just isn't true, and there was never much overlap between the RTA community and the TAS community for SMW.
Cloud glitch is somewhere in between ACE and warps. It doesn't belong anywhere on TASVideos given how the site is structured. If the RTA community counts it as any% then fine. But there is no "any%" TAS on this site, because there are better labels that exist.
If somebody wants to make an optimized TAS using cloud glitch, just to compare it to RTAs or whatever, they're welcome to. But I don't think it will end up here. Feel free to prove me wrong.
Huh, but I thought the 12 minute run of MM was obsoleted by the 1 minute run because the 12 minute run also used ACE in the big glitches, just not to its full potential? ^^;
Huh, but I thought the 12 minute run of MM was obsoleted by the 1 minute run because the 12 minute run also used ACE in the big glitches, just not to its full potential? ^^;
People were trying to push for the 12-minute one to get obsoleted and instead have the previous one that is 15-minutes but actually plays all stages fully be the one that coexists with the 1-minute one.
The only differences between the glitches featured in both seem to depend on what items or enemies trigger it. Otherwise, both are calling for very specific things in the game's coding via memory corruption.
