Post by ALAKTORN

Posted: 8/29/2014 10:32 PM

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Comicalflop

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Joined: 6/13/2006
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What new glitches does the PAL version bring to the table? New wrong warp in Bramble Scramble definitely piqued my interest in making a new any% TAS for the game. I'm just not thrilled with changing to PAL; I would prefer working with US 1.1. There was one very minor mistake (just a few frames) in world 5 in the current any% (that's featured in the 102%) that always bugged me and now has an opportunity to be fixed.

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Posted: 8/29/2014 11:40 PM

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Dooty

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Joined: 6/2/2009
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Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Not really new glitches, but it allows us to perform all the tricks from v1.0 and v1.1 on the same Rom. (Like playing Rambi Rumble without Rambi.) But the new wrong warp location definitely brought something new to the table; you can use one beetle and any other animal to set up the Sprite Glitch!

Newpants87 wrote:

1) The boss timings are definitely different than 1.1 U/J 2) The team up scrolling glitch in 4-1 is much slower than all the other versions. 3) The lag does feel pretty much non-existent throughout the game.

1) Alright, now I understand why Garrison, and now you, state that v1.1 have faster bosses; I can pick up the first cannonball 98 frames earlier on PAL v1.0 than on USA v1.1 2) I think it was for the 102% run, but this strategy was tested and proved to be slower. 3) This alone saved almost 500 frames on Gangplank Galleon and is saving time everywhere.

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 8/30/2014 12:09 AM

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ALAKTORN

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Dooty wrote:

3) This alone saved almost 500 frames on Gangplank Galleon and is saving time everywhere.

I don’t think using a version with less lag is considered an improvement when comparing runs for obsoletion… so you should make sure that it’s faster without considering lag, too.

Posted: 8/30/2014 12:16 AM

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Patashu

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Joined: 10/2/2005
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ALAKTORN wrote:

Dooty wrote:
3) This alone saved almost 500 frames on Gangplank Galleon and is saving time everywhere.
I don’t think using a version with less lag is considered an improvement when comparing runs for obsoletion… so you should make sure that it’s faster without considering lag, too.

Correct. It needs to be faster due to better gameplay, e.g. ignoring lag, loading times and text.

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Posted: 8/30/2014 12:59 AM

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Dooty

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Joined: 6/2/2009
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Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

There are improvements in many places already, and many other known improvements will be implemented. But, yes, the biggest time saver so far is the version change, I won't deny it. But without some other major game breaking glitch, it will be pretty hard to improve the published run using the USA 1.1 Rom. I've tried and at the end of every stage I saw it falling behind and behind. Not a pretty encouraging sight, I tell you. edit: here's the WIP I promised; http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/17058681638860183 Improvements so far; Mainbrace Mayhem new strategy. A really small improvement on Lava Lagoon. The strategy from the 102% run was implemented on Kleever. edit2; The set up of the high jump was improved a little in Slime Climb. One of the barrels of Bramble Blast was skipped. edit3; For some reason the game is now running just great on BizHawk 1.8, so I'm updating to this version. Also, by pausing the game you'll have the same "fanfare problem"; it seems to speed up the music. Now I'm not so sure if I want to submit this run, but I'll finish it regardless. Maybe we can get something good out of it. edit4; I'm at Hornet Hole, 5485 frames ahead. I'm sorry to keep comparing this to the published run, but it's the fastest so far. edit5; I forgot to post the new WIP on my previous edit; http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/17136561383857693 edit6; The differences in speed and physics on Hornet Hole are driving me crazy, two days and I barely made it to the checkpoint... edit7; I'm still at Hornet Hole, but at least I'm making progress. As a side note, the tricks and movements used on this stage will be slower in comparison with US 1.1 Rom. edit8; Whew, I'm finally out of Hornet Hole! edit9; Bramble Scramble completed, 02:47.97 ahead now. edit10; another interesting difference between versions; Dixie plays the demo mode instead of Diddy in some of the stages. edit11; I'm fighting King Zing, 03:09.33 ahead now. New WIP coming soon. edit12; New WIP; http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/17265389619791919

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 9/8/2014 5:30 PM

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Newpants87

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Joined: 3/31/2013
Posts: 18

nice progress i'm surprised that a faster way to make invis barrels was found and that you were able to use it twice so far. nice find with the bramble blast barrel skip. i tried to do it on the other versions but seems to be pal only. in bramble scramble you threw the dk barrel upwards. you can jump over the 2 bees without ever pressing right or picking up the barrel. i tried this out, i'm not sure if it's faster than what you do. i used the edge before the hook throwing guy though. Link to video also cool seeing rambiless rumbi in here, i'm guessing you opted for that since rambi is so slow here?

Posted: 9/9/2014 2:19 AM

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Amaraticando

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Dooty wrote:

edit12; New WIP; http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/17265389619791919

For some reason, it desynced in Rattle Battle. I'm using Bizhawk 1.8.1 and sha1sum of the ROM is 29601b586c57c1f5da8956b640e5fc48dcc4364f.

Posted: 9/9/2014 12:12 PM

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ALAKTORN

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Newpants87 wrote:

Link to video

Do you really need invincibility to make that work? It was obviously needed for the old route, but for this new one it looks like it maye be possible without it… maybe using Diddy? It would save some seconds :/

Posted: 9/9/2014 1:48 PM

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solarplex

Active player (274)

Joined: 2/1/2014
Posts: 928

Link to video

Posted: 9/9/2014 4:56 PM

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Dooty

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Joined: 6/2/2009
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Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Thanks everyone. It's good to see that it is gathering more interested people to help this project out.

Amaraticando wrote:

For some reason, it desynced in Rattle Battle. I'm using Bizhawk 1.8.1

BizHawk 1.8.1? I didn't know a new version was released, I'm using v1.8.0.

ALAKTORN wrote:

Do you really need invincibility to make that work?

Newpants87's strategy is faster than mine, and I'm quite sure the invincibility is not needed. I'll test it, and if so, it will be included on the next wip.

Newpants87 wrote:

1) you can jump over the 2 bees without ever pressing right or picking up the barrel. 2) also cool seeing rambiless rumbi in here, i'm guessing you opted for that since rambi is so slow here?

1) I'll make sure to try it again, but Diddy's physics is different; he falls down sooner on the PAL Rom. (forcing me to wait for the bees to get out of the vine) 2) Rambi have the same speed as on USA v1.1, he just falls down quicker. But the previous any% run proved that without him this stage is faster.

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 9/9/2014 7:11 PM

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Newpants87

Player (71)

Joined: 3/31/2013
Posts: 18

skipping the invincible barrel might be difficult unless you can find a pixel without a hurtbox. i looked for a bit using both diddy and dixie, there wasn't any quick obvious places to make it work. also ty, i never figured out what exactly was different with the animal buddies. i tried a lot to jump into the top barrel instead of the bottom with rambi in 3-1 but now i see why i could not. maybe after this is done you could go through all the minute differences you've found in pal. and i tested out bramble scramble on pal, jumping over the 2 bees is still possible :)

Posted: 9/10/2014 12:19 AM

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Dooty

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Joined: 6/2/2009
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Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Yes,you're right; I also made the jump, but I had to turn right for two frames in order to delay the spawn of the bees. Is that what you did too? But about the invincibility barrel, it is possible to set up the release of the beetle without it, but then I can't make the jump over the Krook. :( Well, don't take my word for it but I think that your strategy is the fastest possible way to set up the wrong warp here.

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 9/10/2014 1:28 AM

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ALAKTORN

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Could you grab the beetle and throw it forward while keeping it alive? So you would grab it normally, throw it past the enemy, then grab it again and do the glitch grab to set up the wrong warp. I have no idea what I’m talking about so forgive me if this is a stupid idea. Also I had a question about the first lava level: is that stuff you do with the enemy inside the barrel to set up a wrong warp?

Posted: 9/10/2014 2:04 AM

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Dooty

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Joined: 6/2/2009
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Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

To set up the "hold air" glitch with the beetle you must release the "Y" button for at least one frame, but you can't trigger the throw animation. To do that on the published run we jumped on another beetle so we could release the button as we bounced. The new method uses a different approach; you can release the Y button without triggering the throw animation if you do that while sliding on a steep slope, or as we did on Bramble Scramble, slide off of a ledge. It's quite easy to do it on Mainbrace Mayhem, as Diddy can safely land after the set up. But the thorns at Bramble Scramble are instant killers, so the invincibility barrel seems to be the "only" possible solution. But your idea is not stupid at all! I was setting up the trick before the gap, so the invincibility period for killing Diddy was not lasting long enough. Now I'll try to take the beetle to the other side, and I think it might work. Keep your fingers crossed. :) edit; Oh, about wrong warp set up on the lava level, yes, it is. To hold air there, the chest must touch Klobber, the green croc, at a very precise moment; as it stops. Bumping on him seems to be the only way to make it happen. The darker chest above the start of the level does not require the bumping, but it is slower to go up there to grab it. edit2; It finally worked, but it's slower as I still have to sacrifice Diddy; I can enter the warp barrel at frame 50887 using the invincibility barrel, by throwing the beetle to the other side I can only enter at frame 50894. (the old strategy enters at frame 50905, let's see if I can make it sync)

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 9/10/2014 4:14 AM

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ALAKTORN

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Dooty wrote:

it's slower as I still have to sacrifice Diddy;

Because you can’t throw the beetle far enough without falling on the vines? :(

Posted: 9/10/2014 5:42 AM

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Newpants87

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Joined: 3/31/2013
Posts: 18

Dooty wrote:

Yes,you're right; I also made the jump, but I had to turn right for two frames in order to delay the spawn of the bees. Is that what you did too? But about the invincibility barrel, it is possible to set up the release of the beetle without it, but then I can't make the jump over the Krook. :(

no i never turned right. the timing for pal is very precise. the jump needs to be just high enough to go over the bramble, need to always be holding left and be pressing y as much as possible without picking up barrel. if it is not possible for you after that, it might be because i'm using snes9x. were you able to find out a new way to make the invis barrel? you can jump over the krook without getting hit while holding the beetle. i believe it is a one frame in which you can jump over. it is only possible with diddy though, dixie cannot make it over. if you found a new method, maybe you can swap and kill dixie off instead. it would make the next level faster as well. --- Link to video was 44f slower but i don't think i did it optimally. that should be enough to not take the invincibility barrel anymore because you don't have to swap anymore in the next stage. also diddy should be faster getting to the cart.

Posted: 9/10/2014 4:26 PM

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Dooty

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Joined: 6/2/2009
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Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

ALAKTORN wrote:

Because you can’t throw the beetle far enough without falling on the vines? :(

No, it's possible to throw the beetle as far as the Krook is, but there's (yet) no other way to release the Y button without being invincible.

Newpants87 wrote:

no i never turned right.(to jump over the bees)

Oh, how silly I am. I was trying to roll as much as I could to preserve my speed, and it just made me waste time. :)

Newpants87 wrote:

it is only possible with diddy though, dixie cannot make it over.(the Krook)

Um... I'm not at home right now, but it may be possible to do a "Target Switch" on Hornet Hole. It's not possible to do it on Target Terror, I tested it already, but your strategy made me think about that possibility.

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 9/10/2014 5:20 PM

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Newpants87

Player (71)

Joined: 3/31/2013
Posts: 18

because you never take damage and get a kong from dk barrel or take any warp in hornet hole, it is possible you will not be able to swap partner on goal. goal swapping is very weird though so maybe it will still work anyhow. also swapping in bramble scramble takes only about 1 second, i am unsure if having dixie in front for all of target terror and beginning of bramble will be faster. i think it will be very close. i believe you can still use dixie to make the wrong warp too, the invincibility from damage should last long enough to go over a few of the bramble and make it over the krook. it could be faster but i am doubtful of using dixie for rickety race.

Posted: 9/10/2014 9:12 PM

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Dooty

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Joined: 6/2/2009
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Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

I never really understood the requirements to make a target switch work, or why it work on a stage but not on a similar stage. (it works on Lockjaw's Locker, but not on Lava Lagoon, for example) But if it work, it won't make Target Terror much slower. The only thing that can slow you down there by having Dixie in front is; 1) the small segment up to the first kart 2) the jumps from one kart to the next one 3) another small segment at the end for #3, Diddy can make it in one jump, but Dixie must walk some steps before the jump. While on the kart, the speed is not dependent on the kong, so it won't matter that much. But having her in front at the beginning of Bramble Scramble seems to be a good thing; 1) she can do her helicoptery thing to avoid landing on the horizontal vine 2) I'm not sure if it's for DKC2 or 3, but Dixie can climb vertical vines faster If none of the above possibilities work, the kong switch at Bramble Scramble still seems a better strategy than what I did. edit; I still don't know what to do to fix the ones that does not work. But if you let your speed drop to zero near some targets, the target switch won't work anymore. The target at Lockjaw's Locker again is an example; stop near or above it and you won't be able to target switch.

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 9/11/2014 7:02 AM

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Newpants87

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Joined: 3/31/2013
Posts: 18

i believe goalswapping has to do with the status of your alternate kong. for some, they are because of a warp or being shot out of a barrel and your alternate kong seems to have that weird status. running seems to keeps your kong in that status for a lot of the goals. for the others, you land very close to the goal anyhow before your alternate kong can lose the status. for instance in the lost world level, black ice battle, if you use diddy the whole time and try to goal swap it will not work, but if you get hit and open a kong, swapping seems to magically work afterwards easily.

Posted: 9/11/2014 4:59 PM

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Dooty

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Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Um... the kong status makes a whole lot of sense, yes. But the target at Pirate Panic doesn't make sense; if you reach it and the target switch does not work, backtrack until you despawn it. Most of the times the target switch will start working, but not always. So, there you don't need the warp, take damage or switch kongs, just spawn it at a certain frame. (which frame?) Even worse is the target at Hot Head Bop; you can let your speed drop to zero there, you just need to be facing away from it. Again, it won't work always, but still.

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 9/11/2014 6:53 PM

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Newpants87

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Joined: 3/31/2013
Posts: 18

in pirate panic just jump over the goal after the warp and you can swap. even if you don't take the warp, you should still be able to switch because you break open a kong and just run on the goal to swap (if you get on rambi i believe it will not work). you can backtrack yes, but i believe only because you probably have broken a dk barrel open. it should never have anything to do with spawning the goal. just your speed or a close by warp. hot head bop is like kannon's klaim, something is bouncing you straight to the goal after the warp. if you look at your alternate kong you can see he/she has some weird rolling animation going on instead of the normal idle animation that stops after awhile. those 2 are the only situations where i think you can just turn around and swap. maybe hot head bop might be fastest to complete in 102% with teamup jump to warp first with goal swap and then start+select on the last bonus but i am doubtful. in lava lagoon you can swap if you enter in dixie/diddy only and open a dk barrel somewhere along the way, going straight to the end. i'm not sure how entering bonuses affect goalswap; i don't often look into 102%. i think you are looking too deep into this. most of the useful goal swaps have been formalized. imo, it's either a dk barrel has been broken in the level, a warp to the goal that lets you swap, or transforming back from an animal buddy. transitions probably affect your ability to swap.

Posted: 9/11/2014 8:20 PM

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Dooty

Expert player (2470)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Yes, I think I'm getting paranoid about those target switches, thank you for the heads up. In any case, since it's not possible to target switch in Hornet Hole nor in Target Terror, I'm going to use your strategy in Bramble Scramble, the other stages must be redone as well. So, the new WIP will take some time, I want to post it after Kreepy Krow. Thank you again.

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 9/12/2014 1:58 AM

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Dooty

Expert player (2470)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Thank you, ALAKTORN. Your suggestion to take the beetle to the other side of the gap plus Newpants87's strategy to sacrifice Dixie was implemented on Bramble Scramble. The new strategy enters the warp barrel at frame 50902, and since I'm already with Diddy for the next stages, it saved ~69 frames. edit; Only Rickety Rage had to be redone, the rest of the run synced quite well and now it's 83 frames faster; http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/17356584177187893 edit2; By throwing the barrel to the right on Bramble Scramble, you'll enter the bonus an normal, but will exit at the target! Seems like a nice shortcut for the 102% run. edit3; I was wrong, it's not by throwing but stomping on something; Link to video

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

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