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I've always assumed that there are more people than one thinks in any given group just because some people keep their association with that group secret. I think that, occasionally, people of a certain gender don't want to admit they're involved in hobbies "associated" with the other gender due to the rejection they could face from their peers.
That's just a thought, though.
NON-EDIT: Maybe not "rejection", per se, but they're afraid they'll be looked down on.
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
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What a productive discussion! I think it's great to have this on profile as long as there is an unspecified option. I don't know about putting it right next to the username on every post though. While gender is part of identity it's hopefully not that important. Lower in the sidebar or just on the profile should be enough.
To be honest, I can't recall ever thinking about how my username reveals my gender until reading this thread. I imagine that it's the same for some females but realistically it probably is less of a big deal for guys.
Anyway after thinking about this for a while I realized that there are pluses and minuses to being open about gender. The "why should it matter" line of thinking that suggests it shouldn't be an issue. But the fact is that it is part of most people's identity. Completely ignoring it leads to the problems like what prompted this thread. Imagining that it doesn't matter at all is also not realistic; it would lead to constantly worrying about revealing yourself through your comments. There are a lot of ways this can come up, for example voice chat in MMO games.
The same issues apply to a lot of other aspects of identity where there is a similar dilemma: reveal oneself so that others can take it into consideration when interacting with you or hide oneself to protect against others taking advantage of that knowledge. In other words, it comes down to your opinion on human nature. Though there is also a situational aspect; in a competitive situation maybe you should expect that someone is going to use knowledge of your identity against you. But that should not be the case in a friendly and welcoming community like ours. That is, in a kind and respectful ideal world it should only be advantageous for everyone to be open about their identity.
So that's why I think it's good to have the option to be open. People can decide whether or not based on how they view the community, their level of sensitivity and so on. I would like to point out that there is another side effect - whether you leave it unspecified or not, the choice itself reveals something about you. That's why I think it's important to make it less prominent; as it is I feel pressured to put something and I worry about how leaving it unspecified makes others perceive me.
Maybe I am overanalyzing things but this is something I think about a lot. Growing up I was always told to hide my mood swings (by people who don't have them) to the point that I was attempting to deny it from myself. At a certain point it becomes futile and counter-productive and it gives you a pessimistic mindset where everyone is against you. Having a circle of allies who are in is very helpful and not being honest with friends and family is just stupid. Still, I have to admit that sometimes hiding them is for the best. I do want to work towards a world where we can all be more open though.
Also, I started playing the PC version of Final Fantasy XIII after never having a console that could play it. My first thoughts were that Lightning was pretty badass, but is it really necessary for her to wear a miniskirt and sleeveless top while the guys are all wearing long pants and jackets?
Yes, many women are also very competitive, and there's also some competitive hobbies/sports that are dominated by women (roller derby), but I think the majority of competitions for the sake of competition is male dominated.
Many people do indeed present the hypothesis that most hobbies (that involve groups of people) are male-dominant because most hobbies tend to be competitive.
OTOH, sports seem to go somewhat contrary to that hypothesis. Although it depends on the sport, of course. For example I have the impression that football is male-dominant (there are of course female teams and leagues, but I think they are a minority). Athletic sports seem to be somewhat more evenly distributed, even when we are talking about competitive sports (such as track&field).
There are many non-competitive fields that are also likewise male-dominant, or at least are mostly represented by males in their top positions. Think of things like film production in all of its different subcategories (scriptwriting, directing, music composition, etc.) For example if you look at the list of greatest film directors of all time, you'll hardly find even one single woman there. (Feminists will quickly jump to the conclusion that this is because the film industry is inherently sexist, but I don't know if that's just a hasty conclusion based on assumptions or if it's actually so significant.) Film production is but one example, though.
TheAxeMan wrote:
Also, I started playing the PC version of Final Fantasy XIII after never having a console that could play it. My first thoughts were that Lightning was pretty badass, but is it really necessary for her to wear a miniskirt and sleeveless top while the guys are all wearing long pants and jackets?
The reason is mostly pragmatic in terms of economy: Games with scantily clad ladies sell. That might tell something about the average consumer, but one shouldn't hastily jump to any conclusions about the creators, other than that they want to make money. If scantily clad male characters would sell more games, they would put those there. If characters dressed in eskimo wear would sell more games, their characters would be like that. It's just economy. There usually is no ideological or political agenda behind it.
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Warp wrote:
OTOH, sports seem to go somewhat contrary to that hypothesis. Although it depends on the sport, of course. For example I have the impression that football is male-dominant (there are of course female teams and leagues, but I think they are a minority). Athletic sports seem to be somewhat more evenly distributed, even when we are talking about competitive sports (such as track&field).
I don't see it as contrary at all.
Men are competitive, their motivations are primarily to conquer, or acquire things which others cannot.
Women are more focused on actual tangible outcomes of a particular activity, with the idea behind that less important.
Both men and women may partake in sports, but for different reasons. The man wants to win the trophy or be named the best. The woman wants the exercise or the money earned/won.
Ask children what they want to accomplish when they get older. Boys will say things like they want to win the Stanley cup, or be the one to cure cancer, or be the #1 Chess grandmaster. Girls will say things like be a ballerina, be a doctor, help people, be surrounded by family they enjoy.
You may have two people competing for that gold medal, the man saying it was his dream to win it. While the woman will say it was her dream to be good enough to win it.
Warp wrote:
There are many non-competitive fields that are also likewise male-dominant, or at least are mostly represented by males in their top positions. Think of things like film production in all of its different subcategories (scriptwriting, directing, music composition, etc.) For example if you look at the list of greatest film directors of all time, you'll hardly find even one single woman there. (Feminists will quickly jump to the conclusion that this is because the film industry is inherently sexist, but I don't know if that's just a hasty conclusion based on assumptions or if it's actually so significant.) Film production is but one example, though.
This is because getting the "top position" is also a matter of competition.
When various CEOs were asked about their motivations moving forward, men say something like they hope to have the market dominated by their product, or become a market leader, while the woman will say something like they hope to make their shareholders money, or create products that people need.
Now look at film production. The men want to be known as the greatest filmmaker or whichever position. The woman says she wants to tell a good story. Therefore the men will be trying to push the boundaries on various limitations, or purposely aim to do things that haven't been done before. Women will do whatever is best for the kind of story they want to tell, or concept they want to present, without focusing on how to alter that to best win some award.
Edit:
To strengthen the last idea, or perhaps offer a different perspective, if one looks at the most popular book series in the last two decades, or movie series based on a book series, the author of the original book is usually a woman.
I think this is because woman aren't writing books to be the most popular, or win some author's award, but simply because they just want to tell some story they thought up. Readers primarily read books not because of awards they won, but because they heard that the story itself is quite good.
Movies on the other hand, which primarily also exist to tell some story, you instead have all sorts of side things which you heard about. You gotta go see this movie because of the:
*Special effects
*Cinematography
*Well choreographed scene
*Sound track
*Etc...
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
So this is why there was a genderselection option on my profile. I mentioned all the genderoptions here in a mumbleconversation with my gamerfriends and we had a laugh about it. But after reading this thread it sort of makes sense
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I just noticed this thread. Thanks, this was a good read. I am always pleased to see people learning and thinking together. If you haven't got the interest to read the whole thread, I would recommend looking at the comments made by Nach, Bisqwit and TheAxeMan.
My two cents: I think that the ancient biological and social development of Homo sapiens naturally produced "men" and "women", but this state of affairs is slowly disappearing (maybe altogether?) as the development of science and democracy are freeing the species from its natural constraints.
Gamer Maiden Sonia wrote:
I guess only the first three options would be enough.
Let me understand something. You wanted people to treat you in a specific way due to your archaic conception of self-identity, but at the same time you think that all other individuals could be cateorized into just three groups? Isn't that a bit arrogant?
Kurabupengin wrote:
I mean that you could take consideration on whatever gender you are and answer their responses in the correct way just to not mess up like this again.
The correct way is to never make unfounded assumptions.
Warp wrote:
And "there are no women on the internet" is a meme. It's humor.
It would not be humor to you, if you identified yourself as a woman and somebody used the joke as a weapon to diminish your status. Humor is a method that a group can use to invigorate its endogenous tribe mentality. Think of all the racist/blonde jokes you have heard. Are they just humor? No. They are social tools for increasing one's own social status by lowering the status of others. What better way to gain acceptance than make people laugh? Also, how often have you heard someone telling a racist/chauvinist joke that mocks the person who is telling the joke? The answer is quite revealing. The funniest joke is seldom on you. I have a friend who is fascinated by gay jokes (almost to the point that I would call him a gay joke hobbyist), but at the same time he despises jokes about men who have performed non-military service. Not surprisingly, he has done non-military service.
Nach wrote:
Further, as expressive as language is, language alone is deficient in its ability to truly capture how a person feels. As advanced as our languages are today, they cannot express everything.
As Noam Chomsky puts it: Language did not originally develop for communication. Language developed primarily as a tool for thinking. That is why communicating with language delivers so little. Communication is peripheral to language.
And "there are no women on the internet" is a meme. It's humor.
It would not be humor to you, if you identified yourself as a woman and somebody used the joke as a weapon to diminish your status. Humor is a method that a group can use to invigorate its endogenous tribe mentality. Think of all the racist/blonde jokes you have heard. Are they just humor?
You are seriously equating "there are no women on the internet" with racist jokes?
*sigh*
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Warp wrote:
You are seriously equating "there are no women on the internet" with racist jokes?
From his point of view (and probably others I imagine), they find that to be a racist joke, as they feel it carries some kind of connotation that "women don't know how to use the internet" or "women are better suited to stay in the kitchen than go to the internet", or something along those lines.
However, I like you see it more as a joke regarding the internet itself, and its anonymity and ability to utterly misrepresent oneself during communication, than anything related to women in particular.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I have always understood the joke to be targeted at the average internet user, not at women. In other words, the joke is insinuating that the internet is full of lonely and perverted nerds (and part of the joke is that if somebody appears to be female, it's probably just a male pervert posing as one).
Sure, it may be lame and distasteful humor, but I don't see any kind of actual sexism in it. If anything, it's "sexist" against lonely male nerds. It's poking fun at them.
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Yes, I'd agree with that understanding of it. However the statement itself taken out of context can be construed in other ways, which I think is why some people find it racist.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Thank you for educating me on how to feel about jokes. You obviously don't understand the emotional side of the issue. *sob*
Okay, let's look at the threads that allegedly had the innocent meme appear on the first page...
Oh, gosh! It is much worse than I thought...
We can see that one of the threads has the so called "joke" immediately in the first reply while the other thread has it in the 6th reply. So, when a beautiful lady thread is created, it takes only 3.5 replies on average for a misogynist to hijack it from us. That is no humor. That is abuse.
Interestingly, the first offender looks like a monstrous baby while the other is a baby-sized monster with a silly high-pitched voice:
What a strange cave we have stumbled upon... It looks like there are no real men here either... Looks more like an ayahuasca-induced shamanistic trip to me... =)
By the way, are you a man? ^__^
I guess only the first three options would be enough.
Let me understand something. You wanted people to treat you in a specific way due to your archaic conception of self-identity, but at the same time you think that all other individuals could be cateorized into just three groups? Isn't that a bit arrogant?
Honestly, just Male/Female covers pretty much everything (transmen and transwomen identify as specifically male or female and don't like being referred to as trans), and Other/I'm Not Sure are good alternate options that cover the rest of the spectrum without being discriminatory. More specific gender options can be added if anyone asks for them.
This quote by Samsara reflects my own thoughts very well. It's what I had in mind when I made that one post. That's all.
I wonder if you have even read the whole thread.
So, when a beautiful lady thread is created, it takes only 3.5 replies on average for a misogynist to hijack it from us. That is no humor. That is abuse.
I must admit that if you are being sarcastic, you are confusing me about the fact.
I will assume you didn't say that seriously.
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Warp wrote:
Aqfaq wrote:
So, when a beautiful lady thread is created, it takes only 3.5 replies on average for a misogynist to hijack it from us. That is no humor. That is abuse.
I must admit that if you are being sarcastic, you are confusing me about the fact.
I will assume you didn't say that seriously.
I'm not sure why it's not obvious. Let me help you out:
Aqfaq wrote:
So, when a beautiful lady thread is created, it takes only 3.5 replies on average for a misogynist to hijack it from us. That is no humor. That is abuse.
I don't see how anyone can seriously consider that* a beautiful lady thread, nor consider its contents as being hijacked from the supposed us.
Aqfaq is doing an admirable job acting as the battered woman, but with remarks like this, its sarcastic facade should be apparent.
*
Thread #5362: Most prolific female playerThread #4931: Are you male or female?
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Nach wrote:
Aqfaq is doing an admirable job acting as the battered woman
You call that admirable? Do you also admire the Men's Rights Movement?
EDIT: Or old Vaudeville blackface performers, for that matter? It's the same sort of highly offensive "Look at me, the privileged white male, pretending to be part of a group that has actual problems and difficulties in modern society!" so I'm sure you'd find that just as admirable.
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
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I am amazed at your inabilities to detect a facetious remark.
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I usually have trouble with facetious remarks when they're said by people who I find arrogant enough to say them seriously.
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 3/9/2004
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Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
This is a serious thread? News to me.
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This sincere apology that turned into a discussion of gender identity which led to you implementing gender icons isn't a serious thread? News to me.
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
It's the same sort of highly offensive "Look at me, the privileged white male, pretending to be part of a group that has actual problems and difficulties in modern society!" so I'm sure you'd find that just as admirable.
I'm curious to know whether you think that men do not have problems in our society, or those problems don't matter because men are "privileged".
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I'd sooner put a bullet in my skull than continue talking about this.
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Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Yet for some reason, you happen to keep posting.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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I have a bad reputation to uphold.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
What a strange cave we have stumbled upon... It looks like there are no real men here either... Looks more like an ayahuasca-induced shamanistic trip to me... =)
By the way, are you a man? ^__^
