Link to videoInput
Spring Breeze and Gourmet Race finished w/fall-thru-platforms glitch active
I realize I made a mistake getting the Poppy Jr into position for the Jet mix. Initially it saves 3 frames, but unfortunately it doesn't save time overall due to extra lag later on :/
I'm also having a hard time deciding what to do with Gourmet Race 3. Jet is very laggy in that stage, so it turns out replacing the first jet charge with simply running saves 11 lag frames, but wastes 9 in-game frames, for a total of 2 frames. Normally it'd be no big deal, but with the in-game timer right there it appears a lot slower. Also, I don't get the fall-thru-platform glitch for some reason. I could get it in Great Cave Offensive instead, but I don't know if it'd waste any time there.
I'd prefer to go for the better in-game time, but I'm open to either option
You can also use the Fire ability to clip up through platforms.
Have you seen OGA and smns72's old any% WIP? It actually skips both Spring Breeze and Gourmet Race, so they might not be needed to complete the game. Additionally, there are a lot of tricks like miniboss skips that you should be able to recreate or improve upon in lsnes.
You can also use the Fire ability to clip up through platforms.
Down, actually. I was looking for opportunities to use it, but Spring Breeze doesn't benefit from Fire enough. The few places you have to go down, particularly just before Whispy Woods, aren't worth the time it takes to switch abilities
CoolKirby wrote:
Have you seen OGA and smns72's old any% WIP? It actually skips both Spring Breeze and Gourmet Race, so they might not be needed to complete the game. Additionally, there are a lot of tricks like miniboss skips that you should be able to recreate or improve upon in lsnes.
I have. Actually, I was under the impression that this one was more recent, but apparently the one you linked finishes one more room of Meta Knight :U
Anyway, I do not agree that Milky Way Wishes should be considered the primary goal of KSS, due to its nature as a collection of games. I argue that a run aiming only to complete MWW is incomplete
It'll make a great reference for Dyna Blade and GCO, though. Thanks for linking it c:
I will look at your WIP later. As for gourmet race, please aim for ingame time.
The best grandprix times are 19.82, 30.05, 6.40.
See here.
I noticed the any% WIP video on Youtube is not available anymore. I don't know I could upload it unlisted...
Back when OGA and I worked on this game, both of us had the mindset we should squeeze every single frame out of this game, go back and get every frame that can be saved. OGA was doing a much better job than me. Keeping up this high level of perfection, along with controlling 2 players and lag and luck management was too much for me so I eventually stopped working on this game for good and OGA and smns72 seem to have disappeared.
It's nice to see others try their luck.
I will try to give some feedback:
- At the menuing, where you click away tutorial before a mode starts, there seems to be a difference between pressing A or Start - OGA told me pressing one caused the game to lag more frames as opposed to pressing the other. I don't know if you have done it correctly, but I'm just pointing it out.
- Since I'm not familiar with lsnes, I can't look at your optimization much. I compared some sections with my old WIP from snes9x and judging from the background music, I'm going through the rooms faster. This may be some new lag emulation, or longer screen transition emulation, I don't know.
After watching through half of your Spring Breeze, though, I feel like you did a very good job at pretty much the whole WIP. I feel like you lost some frames to lag in Bubbly Clouds (before Kracko Jr and at Kracko Jr I feel like I noticed..) but I would say it's negligible. We should try to forgo saving every single frame and instead try to get the thing done this time.
-Your Gourmet Race looks fine. I would really want it to be ingame time so I hope you keep it like this.
- As for Great Cave Offensive, I fear that's the point where I stopped working on the game so the strategy hasn't been refined. I did finish the room with the long ladder at one point but then stopped for good. If you don't have that one, let me know and I'll look for it.
- I don't understand why you want to set up fall through glitch in Gourmet Race. You only need to set it up at the end of GCO for Dynablade. After that, I have no idea - also I'm afraid I can't really help you with the glitch (how it's done, because I don't understand it much).
Is your WIP 100% or just all modes?
I'm looking forward to a run now. It's long overdue for nitsuja's run to be improved upon. Good luck!
Last, but not least, I disagree with your opinion on what should be Any%. Beating Marx has been considered the goal of any%, not even by smns72 and OGA but also by the speedrunning community. It's up to you what you work on, but personally I would like to see
any%
100%
all modes any% (but this one is unpopular...)
- At the menuing, where you click away tutorial before a mode starts, there seems to be a difference between pressing A or Start - OGA told me pressing one caused the game to lag more frames as opposed to pressing the other. I don't know if you have done it correctly, but I'm just pointing it out.
You mean selecting "no," right? I used Y for most of the menuing, since I rebound the controller in a way which resembles KSSU more.
Either way, none of them seem to create any more or less lag
MUGG wrote:
- Since I'm not familiar with lsnes, I can't look at your optimization much. I compared some sections with my old WIP from snes9x and judging from the background music, I'm going through the rooms faster. This may be some new lag emulation, or longer screen transition emulation, I don't know.
Yeah, it's hard to tell. As far as I can tell I'm going at an equal pace w/o lag, but it's impossible to compare w/lag
MUGG wrote:
After watching through half of your Spring Breeze, though, I feel like you did a very good job at pretty much the whole WIP. I feel like you lost some frames to lag in Bubbly Clouds (before Kracko Jr and at Kracko Jr I feel like I noticed..) but I would say it's negligible. We should try to forgo saving every single frame and instead try to get the thing done this time.
Thank you! c:
While I don't want to be lazy about it, I have to agree. Going back to save a few lag frames would take a very long time :/
MUGG wrote:
- As for Great Cave Offensive, I fear that's the point where I stopped working on the game so the strategy hasn't been refined. I did finish the room with the long ladder at one point but then stopped for good. If you don't have that one, let me know and I'll look for it.
The 100% WIP w/Jet and Fire? If not, I haven't seen it
MUGG wrote:
- I don't understand why you want to set up fall through glitch in Gourmet Race. You only need to set it up at the end of GCO for Dynablade. After that, I have no idea - also I'm afraid I can't really help you with the glitch (how it's done, because I don't understand it much).
Dyna Blade is next. Going to GCO would waste a frame of menuing between Dyna Blade and Revenge of Meta Knight
I was planning on using the finish line in Gourmet Race 2 to set it up, which wouldn't have wasted any time, but it turned out I somehow had it already by that point. Possibly from pressing down to preserve momentum when landing?
I'd try to debug the fall-through-platforms glitch, but I can't figure out any way to set breakpoints on SRAM
MUGG wrote:
Is your WIP 100% or just all modes?
I'm looking forward to a run now. It's long overdue for nitsuja's run to be improved upon. Good luck!
Last, but not least, I disagree with your opinion on what should be Any%. Beating Marx has been considered the goal of any%, not even by smns72 and OGA but also by the speedrunning community. It's up to you what you work on, but personally I would like to see
any%
100%
all modes any% (but this one is unpopular...)
It's both, really. The input can easily be reused. What I'm working on currently is any%, and I don't know if I will work on 100% afterwards
I know the MWW goal didn't come out of nowhere, but it nevertheless doesn't complete the entire game. It's the equivalent of skipping Kanto in Pokemon gen 2, stopping at Graham in Aria of Sorrow, or choosing the bad ending in Cave Story. And how would any% be defined in KSSU, in which there are even more game modes after MWW?
I can see the argument that Spring Breeze, Gourmet Race, and the Arena would also be in 100%, and would have no differences from any%, but there's no reason an any% run shouldn't be complete on its own. It doesn't add anything to the run to skip game modes, just time advantage for a very specific goal
Now that I've finished my rant, just think of it as any% all modes, if that makes you feel better. I'll submit it aiming to obsolete nitsuja's, but we'll see what happens
Anyway, thanks for the advice
You can also use the Fire ability to clip up through platforms.
Down, actually. I was looking for opportunities to use it, but Spring Breeze doesn't benefit from Fire enough. The few places you have to go down, particularly just before Whispy Woods, aren't worth the time it takes to switch abilities
Oops, my mistake. That's the one that goes down, then jet goes the opposite direction (which would be up).
It's great to see progress on this game, though. Thank you, Anty-Lemon, and good luck with the next section! Like MUGG said, don't worry about saving every single frame, especially if it becomes demotivating.
"I know the MWW goal didn't come out of nowhere, but it nevertheless doesn't complete the entire game."
of course it didn't come from nowhere there are CREDITS at the end of MWW... if you want to complete the 'entire game' then just do a 100% tas.
a personal note, simultaneous up/down jet zips are boring and a cop out, but that's just me.
"I know the MWW goal didn't come out of nowhere, but it nevertheless doesn't complete the entire game."
of course it didn't come from nowhere there are CREDITS at the end of MWW... if you want to complete the 'entire game' then just do a 100% tas.
You can skip the SB credits, you can't in MWW without resetting. It would 'make me feel better' if you just called it any% all modes, as it differs from 100% based on what you're not collecting. This shouldn't aim to obsolete nitsuja's tas, because you're doing something entirely different, although nitsuja's tas should be pretty easy to obsolete with or without doing extra games.
I fail to see why such a minor difference means MWW marks the end of KSS
Going straight for MWW leaves just below half of the game modes incomplete. As a collection of games, completing the game does not equate to completing the last unlockable game mode, let alone the second-to-last. It means completing all of them. It'd be much different if it were one cohesive game with a bunch of optional areas
That's my opinion. I'll agree to disagree, even if you think I'm wasting my time horribly :P
Link to videoInput
Dyna Blade done, next is Great Cave Offensive
The reset in stage 1 saves about half a second. In stage 3, mixing the Rockys in the tall room for Fire saves a lot of time in that room, then loses it all getting back to Jet to skip the miniboss
I'm kind of sad that it has to use the J version of the game, but is understandable as it has many bug skips that the US version does not have, and as far as I know that the version speedrunners use (for the same reason).
Good luck on your TAS Anty-Lemon, the WIP is looking great so far :)
I've been trying to make Jet first work in GCO, to no avail :/
Link to video
The plan was to mix Jet from the Birdons, make a Jet helper and mix Fire from TAC and Simirror at the end of Sub-Tree, self-destruct the helper in Crystal Area, then turn it into a Wheelie. Unfortunately, there's just no way it'll work without big improvements
Fire + Wheelie | Jet | Diff
975 | 580 | -395
320 | 322 | +2
365 | 224 | -121
320 | 799 | +479
Total is -35, but I need a lot bigger buffer to keep some time through the minecart room
Initially I ruled out getting a Fire partner from the Birdons, since I'd have to lose Fire to get a Wheelie, then get Fire again from Computer Virus. But honestly, with the amount of time lost getting Fire here, it might've been faster.
Either way, Jet first doesn't look likely, unless the Fire mix can be improved by seconds. It's disappointing, since I prefer Jet entertainment-wise, but Fire is just too slow without a Wheelie partner
My 100% SMV mixed Jet and fire (I don't know in what order) in the bird room. I think that file is on my other computer right now, so it's troublesome to get. I don't know if that's better than what you have...
My 100% SMV mixed Jet and fire (I don't know in what order) in the bird room. I think that file is on my other computer right now, so it's troublesome to get. I don't know if that's better than what you have...
I have that movie. You started with a Fighter partner to collect a few treasures, and got Jet w/Fire partner from the Birdons. Then you kept that combination until mixing Fire in Crystal Area's middle room and turned the partner into a Wheelie in the right room
It isn't comparable due to the Fighter helper alone, since it saves 3 frames getting the Birdons into position while simultaneously getting Kirby much farther to the right to respawn them
How is progress? What strat did you end up using in GCO?
Edit: I found my smv I was talking about.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/48232640/KSS2.smv
It mixes Fire helper and Jet Kirby in the bird room. I'm not very familiar with the game anymore, but I think that was the most promising strat to do.
Not sure what to do when you arrive at fatty whale (ditch helper or keep idk?). And after that is a mystery for me.
The corner clip itself was known since forever.
I thought what was new about this is that it's a new setup for RTA runners (single player).
Maybe I don't understand...
