Post by georgexi

Posted: 11/27/2005 10:57 PM
(Edited: 8/24/2007 1:34 AM)

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

Well, I've decided to pick up the NES run again. Actually, I started over after I noticed a place to improve on one of the early levels. I'm not sure how much I'll be able to work on this for the next two weeks because I have finals, but I'll have time after that. Level 10 is going to be hard. I'll need to figure out the best time to assign the six bashing jobs inside that big structure. There are twelve different places I could assign them, so it will take a while to determine the best times. My original intention was to save the minimum number of lemmings in each level. However, this would require wasting either a climbing or a bashing job on the one extra lemming that I can't bomb. On the other hand, I could try to figure out a way to assign blockers on the left side so that the one extra lemming gets to the exit at the same time as the last one that I need to save. What would you guys like to see? If anyone sees a way to improve any of the levels up to now, feel free to let me know. I definitely don't want to have to redo a level after I've completed several later ones. That's already happened at least two or three times, and it's very annoying. To anyone planning to do a run of SNES Lemmings: You might find this site with the solutions to the levels helpful, at least for a general idea of how to do each level. Some of the NES levels are completely different from the ones on that site, but maybe it has all of the SNES ones.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 11/28/2005 4:20 PM

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daniayaw

Former player

Joined: 7/29/2005
Posts: 459
Location: Brazil

gj, keep working^^

<small>My big signature was cleared by admin; i should read <a href="http://tasvideos.org/ForumRules.html">forum rules</a>. But... who does?</small>

Posted: 1/27/2006 12:45 AM
(Edited: 8/24/2007 1:35 AM)

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

After a long break, and probably the hardest work I've yet done on this project, here is a WIP through level 10. (expired link removed) Regarding level 10: I was able to assign a floater and a blocker to the first lemming and switch back fast enough to assign a floater to the second. I also had enough time to assign the second one a bashing job before it started climbing again. In order to do that, however, I had to assign a floater to the third lemming at an unoptimal time, since it would have otherwise died from the fall. Finally, I saved 156 frames by assigning multiple bashing jobs instead of letting one lemming do all the work. As always, any hints or comments are welcome. EDIT: Oh, yeah, I forgot to say this. I think that I'll post updates every time I finish 5 more levels from now on, instead of every level. I'll also include save states to the new material, so that people don't have to watch the old stuff over and over again.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 1/27/2006 2:14 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3573)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee

Im glad you made some progress on this! Honestly I wasn't very excited watching the first levels, they are a little boring. The last 3 levels on WIP though are excellent and make me think this is going to be an excellent run. Some of my favorite parts are when you were able to kill off all the uncessary lemmings without the "armageddon" tool. Finding creative ways to do this in future levels without wasting time is going to improve the quality of the run greatly. Also there will inevitably be moments where you have to wait, how about using the extra "tools" that you get to have the "disposable" lemmings so silly or neat looking things or just to find cruel ways to kill them off. In terms of speed, I didn't see anything in those levels that could be improved, keep up the good work!

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:30 PM

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

adelikat wrote:

Some of my favorite parts are when you were able to kill off all the uncessary lemmings without the "armageddon" tool. Finding creative ways to do this in future levels without wasting time is going to improve the quality of the run greatly.

I try to do that before resorting to the nuke button. The jobs they provided in some levels don't allow it, though. For example, I tried to bash through the crystal on the left end of level 5, but it's unbashable. I was also thinking of building a ladder and having the extra lemmings fall to their death in level 10, but the gate that they come out of prevented the builder from getting high enough.

adelikat wrote:

Also there will inevitably be moments where you have to wait, how about using the extra "tools" that you get to have the "disposable" lemmings so silly or neat looking things or just to find cruel ways to kill them off.

I'll try.

adelikat wrote:

In terms of speed, I didn't see anything in those levels that could be improved, keep up the good work!

Okay, thanks. I just thought of something in level 10, though. I might be able to get the lemmings on the left of the structure closer to it by using blockers before the climbers start falling. This would depend entirely on how long it takes for all of them to be released. If it works, they might be able to get to the exit more quickly. And I thought I had finished the level... EDIT: I just did a quick check, and I might be able to assign one blocker before having to assign the floaters. I'll test if this is faster after my large block of classes today.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:45 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3573)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee

I just thought of something in level 10, though. I might be able to get the lemmings on the left of the structure closer to it by using blockers before the climbers start falling. This would depend entirely on how long it takes for all of them to be released. If it works, they might be able to get to the exit more quickly.

That is a good idea :)

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 1/28/2006 7:22 AM

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

It worked! I was able to eliminate one lemming faster by assigning it the bashing job earlier. That didn't affect the frame count, though. Rather, the blocker assignments allowed me to get the four lemmings I needed to save from the left side into a very small space right by the structure, so they reached the exit 57 frames earlier. Here's a link to the updated file, including a save state to skip directly to level 10. EDIT: I found a way to improve level 7 by 36 frames. You'll notice that I assign a builder by the gate. Its purpose is to delay a lemming from covering as much ground so that it will land on the ledge by the exit instead of falling into the pit. It lands earlier than the builder that was building over the pit, thereby saving the frames. The file is still the same.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 2/12/2006 3:12 PM

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legoman

Joined: 1/20/2006
Posts: 3
Location: finland

my speed run: http://tjaa.dy.fi/lite/webhost/legoman/speed_run.zip NOTE:this is nes versio and I use virtual nes nes emulator,and (U) versio...

I not good make speed runs :( and sorry for my bad english :(

Posted: 5/2/2006 3:03 PM

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Swedishmartin

Joined: 11/26/2005
Posts: 285

legoman wrote:

I use virtual nes nes emulator,and (U) versio...

Sorry, but you better use FCEU. It's the standard NES emulator of the site.

Posted: 10/30/2006 11:14 PM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO

Does anyone have copes of the runs mentioned on this post that arnt (at this point) dead links? I really want to see what people have come up with

Has never colored a dinosaur.

Posted: 10/31/2006 1:12 AM

Post subject: 114

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Acmlm

Active player (478)

Joined: 11/14/2004
Posts: 169
Location: Mirabel, Québec, Canada

Mine is still up: http://acmlm.cjb.net:2/Emu/snes/Snes9x/smv1/Lemmings-4.smv This goes up to Fun 13 (farther than in the last post), but it hasn't progressed since forever ...

Posted: 10/31/2006 3:53 AM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO

Might be on my end, but that website doesnt seem to want to load.

Has never colored a dinosaur.

Posted: 11/1/2006 10:09 PM
(Edited: 8/24/2007 1:38 AM)

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

Here's my current WIP (expired link removed). I haven't worked on it in quite a while, possibly a few months. It completes the first 11 levels. I have an idea that might possibly improve level 11, but I think it'll take a ton of work to test if it's even possible (frame-by-frame testing, pretty much), so I've been slacking.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 11/2/2006 6:42 AM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO

I really like what you have so far. Kinda funny how we forget over time how raw games on the NES look (and sound). I guess playing the SNES version only serves to highlight the difference. For what its worth, the NES version is a lot better about not having general wiredness about things (like acceleration on the cursor, requireing double button clicks on self destruct and other, smaller things)

Has never colored a dinosaur.

Posted: 6/4/2008 3:52 AM

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Lord_Tom

He/Him

Expert player (3143)

Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England

Hmm, I always liked this game on the PC. I'm thinking of doing a mayhem-only run after I finish Metroid. I haven't started playing around with the NES version yet, but was thinking some entertainment could come from using extra jobs in amusing ways that don't affect the time (e.g. make 1 lemming a builder so he lags well behind the pack, then blow him up just as the last lemming is saved). We'll see, though, 25 levels seems daunting...

Posted: 6/4/2008 4:59 AM

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alden

Player (121)

Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522

I for one welcome our new TAS OverLord Tom and his Lemmings...

I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs

Posted: 6/4/2008 8:34 AM

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Flip

Skilled player (1651)

Joined: 7/25/2007
Posts: 299
Location: UK

You should look into Lemmings 2 for SNES, so much more entertaining.

Posted: 6/4/2008 5:13 PM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO

The NES version is the only hope for a halfway optimized run. There is so much variability in the SNES version, that optimizing the motions will slowly drive you insane.

Has never colored a dinosaur.

Posted: 7/24/2008 11:41 PM

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Lord_Tom

He/Him

Expert player (3143)

Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England

Have started poking around in this game (mostly just mayhem 1)...some observations... 1. It really, REALLY sucks that all lemming actions must take place in alignment with an 8-pixel grid. At least, it sucks in that it limits one's actions; it actually makes finding the optimal solution easier since there's fewer possibilities. 2. It SHOULD be a game where a good TAS makes it obvious that no human could have done this, ever. Knowing down to the frame when to blow up a blocker, for instance, displays the kind of precise timing a human could never achieve. 3. This game is long and bit slow. Hopefully not too slow. A movie of all 25 mayhem levels would certainly be over an hour. On the good side, most of that hour will be action (unlike, say, Bubble Bobble where level transitions eat like 4/5 the times). Also, the pace runs at a speed such that someone who's never played the game can follow what's happening (unlike, say Lolo). 4. I'm thinking that moving the cursor in time to the music could add some entertainment and make some of the waiting parts go by faster. Or maybe I could trace pictures and have people try and guess what they are?

Posted: 7/25/2008 3:53 PM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO

could be fun. I look foreward to seeing it.

Has never colored a dinosaur.

Posted: 7/30/2008 8:32 PM

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Lord_Tom

He/Him

Expert player (3143)

Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England

Here's a test run of the 1st 5 mayhem levels. http://tom.seufert.googlepages.com/tomlemmings.fcm The aim of the test run is to find the fastest (but not most entertaining) way to finish each level. My plan would then be to go back and edit in entertaining cursor/camera movements. I think the 1st 4 levels here are optimal. I think it may be possible to improve the 5th slightly by having the extra builder (who builds to nowhere just to delay him) build against a wall instead of into thin air. Since this is a new game for the site, I'd love to hear feedback on its potential, or people's potential for voting for it to be published were a high quality run finished. The major drawback, as I see it, is that so many levels require one lemming to go off and do all the work; if this work involves building multiple times, things get SLOW. Anyways, love to hear what people think, yea or nea (or mea)

Posted: 7/30/2008 9:23 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3573)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee

I like the idea of a lemmings TAS. But I think there are so many better versions than the NES one. So I am not as enthusiastic as I could be. I think the problem also is the number of levels. All levels = boring. Just Mayhem levels suffers from what you just mentioned. 1 lemming doing all the work while the rest are contained in some fashion. For this to be a good TAS, I think it will need some levels where the fastest solution involves impossibly difficult to time movements resulting from the need to manipulated several lemmings at once.

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 7/30/2008 10:53 PM

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Lord_Tom

He/Him

Expert player (3143)

Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England

Yeah, I think you're right about other systems' versions being the way to go. I was pretty astonished at how lame the NES one is...no sound effects at all, limit of 14 lemmings, etc. I'm totally convinced that, whatever its drawbacks, Mayhem-only is the only feasible way to do this game. Doing all levels is just waaaay too long, repetitive, and not at all appealing to me. I also agree with the idea that having a good TAS will require impossibly quick timing. My solutions to the 4th and 5th mayhem levels actually require such timing, but it may not be obvious because there's no sound effect when a lemming is assigned a task. Does anyone prefer a port other than the SNES one?

Posted: 7/30/2008 10:59 PM

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zefiris

Joined: 4/11/2006
Posts: 487
Location: North of Russia :[

I vote for SNES Lemmings 2 full golden medalion run >.< It would be loooong though... But some levels are really insane...

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