Editor, Expert player (2089)
Joined: 8/25/2013
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Invariel wrote:
As for separate 13% branches, I have to agree with Samsara that the fastest 13% should be the 13% branch, regardless of the items collected. The entire concept of pathing and item collection is what makes TASing competitive; by choosing to take an item that results in a slower run, you have not created a new branch, you have made a sub-optimal choice for the existing branch.
^
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser
Samsara
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Posts: 2822
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We're not having two separate categories for low%, because this isn't SuperMetroidVideos. We're not a site that caters to one community and lets the others rot in obscurity. We have rules and standards, something that I and multiple other people spent an entire recent submission trying to explain. Rules and standards that are supposed to prevent us from having a thousand categories that are ultimately similar and not worth watching if you've seen the fifteen other runs. We've already given way too much special attention to Super Metroid: It's the only game on the site that has both a real-time oriented run and an in-game time oriented run. It's the only game on the site with a non-standard category that has two separate published runs detailing extremely minor route changes. It's always had the most published runs out of every game on the site. That's not a precedent we want to be setting, in fact I'd go as far as to say I'm disgusted by the idea that people might actually think it IS a precedent. You can work on whatever thirty derivative TASes you all want to work on, but just keep in mind that we're not going to publish all of them. Post them here, flood this thread with theory TASes and new route ideas and whatnot, post them in other Super Metroid community forums for the people who actually want to watch twenty thousand similar runs, but just remember that if they're submitted, most of them won't make it to publication. The SM community doesn't get to decide what runs get to be published; We do.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
I don't really understand why the restrictions for all the categories. All games if there is a run that provides entertainment IMO should be eligible for more categories. I don't like how some runs on the site get replaced with glitched runs either. Why can't both exist? If the run is not entertaining that's one thing but, its another thing when the game has a following. IMO Special Games Should Get Special Treatment. I am a Super Metroid enthusiast and a huge TAS enthusiast. I love Watching TAS' and I will continue to watch them because its one of the greatest forms of entertainment for me. I never liked restricting rules for great games. What make the games great is the replay value to create said categories and I think it applies to TASing as well. I love you TAS Videos don't ban me for disagreeing with some of your policies.
My name is Forensics.
Invariel
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Editor, Site Developer, Player (171)
Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 539
Location: Toronto, Ontario
I'm not sure I understand what you mean, lxx4xNx6xxl. What restrictions are you talking about? The categories that I see on the site are not that difficult to follow: 100%, any%, occasionally any% glitch, and now ACE. The contention about categories surrounds whether there should be multiple 14% (and soon 13%) branches, several of which are not the fastest 14% (soon 13%) runs, because of their item choices. A lot of the point of planning your run and aiming for the fastest time to completion is deciding which items you're going to acquire. By letting Super Metroid's community define the rules for TASVideos about which branches should exist, a lot of those rules about planning and fastest time go out the window. Nobody is preventing people from making their niche 14% (soon 13%) runs, but the point of the site is to showcase the fastest runs, given the considerations of route planning, itemization, and the like. If you want to do things the fastest, 13% should exist without item-based branches. That's the /point/ of there being branches. 13% <particular> defeats the entire purpose of having branches at all and sets a poor precedent for the rest of the site.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
AntyMew
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Categories are goals, not routes. 13% is a goal, 13% PB-Speed is a route.
Just a Mew! 〜 It/She ΘΔ 〜
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2108)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
http://tasvideos.org/JudgeGuidelines.html
Quantity is not quality. Keep the number of different branches per game minimal. A run for a proposed new branch for a game should offer compelling differences relative to previously published runs of that game.
There are no special games, and we should not give anything special treatment. There's nothing fair about that. We already put limits on a ton of other games, there are games that won't ever make it to Moons or even anywhere close to that. We reject games outright in some cases just because of what they are. Under no circumstance should we have the utter contempt for our audience to say "We have to reject every run of this game because it's not suited for the site. However, we're going to accept 10 Super Metroid runs at the same time." You also fail to realize that Super Metroid is the ONLY GAME we have ever given this kind of special treatment toward, something I tried to make clear in my last post. While discussing things on IRC, Spikestuff mentioned this SM64 submission, specifically the judgement notes, that plays into this topic really well. Along those same lines, I'd like to mention my own judgement of Aria of Sorrow "all souls", in which the majority of the audience wanted it to obsolete the previous glitchless run. There were arguments, for sure, and there were a ton of fans of the previous run (myself included), but in the end we all still decided that it was time to hand things off. The key thing with "all souls" is that, even though the runs are vastly different in terms of routing and execution, the general audience still decided it was time for obsoletion. While we could have theoretically had both published alongside each other due to them being unique, we still chose not to do that. Same with SM64: 16 stars is a different route, different glitches are used in different areas, it could technically exist alongside the other runs. But with all of that being said... In regards to Super Metroid, how much is different between realtime and in-game time, apart from very minor route changes? What's the major difference between the two low% runs apart from the single item and thus maybe a slightly different strategy/routing change somewhere? The underlying game is almost exactly the same every time. You escape from Ceres Station, you go through similar-looking levels flailing your arms about like an inflatable tube-woman, sometimes you turn into a ball and occasionally you fire missiles into things. Why would we accept two or three runs of the exact same category when we have turned down or obsoleted incredible runs of different categories? Even if the communities around the games are just as big, if not bigger, than Super Metroid's? Why would we reject an optimized 16 star run, then turn around and accept the third low% branch for Super Metroid? Why have we, in the past, rejected/warned people against making realtime-oriented Sonic the Hedgehog runs, but we don't have that limitation with Super Metroid? How many times do I have to say we don't cater to specific communities? We allow all communities here, but we can't run our site based off of the demands of specific communities. We have game threads specifically so people of these communities can come together and discuss strategies, people can make runs and share them without the scrutiny that comes from a submission. There are absolutely no limits outside of the submission process. But there are when it comes to publication. Like I've said a thousand times, you have every right to make these runs and support these runs, you have every right to share them here and discuss how to make them faster or better. You have every right to adapt strategies from these runs into other categories. But when you submit the run, you don't have the right to argue with what the community at large decides. You don't have the right to fight with us when we bring up specific rules about limiting categories. Most of all, you don't have the right to say that a Super Metroid run should be published just because it's Super Metroid, or that a run of any other game should be published just because it's that particular game. That's absolutely appalling. If we ran our site like that, it would be suicide. One low% category. That's it.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Kriole's Castlevania Aria of Sorrows "All Souls" TAS got replace with a Glitched version. Don't get me wrong I liked the Glitched version of the TAS but, I did think it should have replaced Kriole's TAS. Neither did the author and he stated he had no intention to replace it. Some things like underflow ruin the rhythm of what low% really is and takes some of the entertaining things about it like ammo management with a pretty major glitch. Its really hard to find a solution without the aid of another category. Maybe make sub categories? There are no other games that I know if other games aside from Super Metroid have multiple low% categories. Why not have them all and if other games have them why not have them all. Super Metroid is Unique like that and no its not favoritism accepting other categories it just a game that has a lot of ways it can be beaten and provide entertainment. For some reason or another people hate that about it maybe because they can't TAS the game and its dominated by already excellent and experienced Super Metroid TASers. I don't know their reasoning I'm not them I am who I am and some might have a difference in opinion. If there is a game that has as many dynamic amount of ways to beat it glitch, not glitch, multiple low%, Any%, ACE, 100% Glitched, 100% not Glitched, RBO, 100% Map and 100% Map and Item. I will happily side beside them and hope they get the categories they deserve as well. I feel like I just wrote a presidential speech or something at the end.
My name is Forensics.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
16 star run is not low % the 0 Star is. Super Metroid has multiple low% all with different items. Saying that is like we are saying we want to keep 14%, we don't.
My name is Forensics.
Samsara
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Entirely not the point I was trying to make, but thanks for misunderstanding anyway. My point was that the 16 star run actually shows off different routing and glitches compared to the other published runs. In a sense, it could be considered unique enough to publish. And we rejected it. So why would we accept multiple derivative runs of the same category? Also:
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
If there is a game that has as dynamic amount of ways to beat it glitch, not glitch, multiple low%, Any%, ACE, 100% Glitched, 100% not Glitched, RBO, 100% Map and 100% Map and Item. I will happily side beside them and hope they get the categories they deserve as well.
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Saying that is like we are saying we want to keep 14%, we don't.
Isn't this hypocrisy? 16 star is like 70 star with different stars. Why is that not acceptable to you? It's a dynamic way to beat the game, isn't it? So why is it not acceptable? Why is 14% not acceptable when it's another way to beat Super Metroid? Can I submit a Super Mario Bros run that goes over some platforms instead of under them and have it be published as a new route? Can I collect coin 15 in 3-3 instead of coin 14 and have it be published as a new route? Or do we, y'know, need to set limits on these things in order to make sure each category is unique and entertaining in its own way?
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 539
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Every game has a dynamic number of ways to beat it. For Super Metroid, that is every single combination of: 13%, 14%, 15%, 16%, 17%, 18%, 19%, 20%, 21%, 22%, 23%, 24%, 25%, 26%, 27%, 28%, 29%, 30%, 31%, 32%, 33%, 34%, 35%, 36%, 37%, 38%, 39%, 40%, 41%, 42%, 43%, 44%, 45%, 46%, 47%, 48%, 49%, 50%, 51%, 52%, 53%, 54%, 55%, 56%, 57%, 58%, 59%, 60%, 61%, 62%, 63%, 64%, 65%, 66%, 67%, 68%, 69%, 70%, 71%, 72%, 73%, 74%, 75%, 76%, 77%, 78%, 79%, 80%, 81%, 82%, 83%, 84%, 85%, 86%, 87%, 88%, 89%, 90%, 91%, 92%, 93%, 94%, 95%, 96%, 97%, 98%, 99%, and 100% that beats the game. And yes, I say "every combination of 100%" because you can collect all 100% items in different ways. And, that's assuming you plan out your route for each of those items and collect them in the most optimal manner. That doesn't even consider arbitrarily long routes where you maximize the distance between any two upgrades, for example. And THAT doesn't even consider wait times. There are literally an infinite number of ways to complete Super Metroid (or any other game). Allowing infinite combination on this site is a fool's errand, (or, as Samsara called it, suicide). The entire reason that branches exist, and the reason those branches are judged on optimality of route as determined by gameplay time (and not in-game time), is so that different types of gameplay following the same general rulesets can co-exist. Once again, nothing is preventing you from creating a TAS in your preferred niche category. Its ability to be published is determined by the judges here based on the site's category rules, not by the rules of the community that surround the game. (And, once again, it's overflow, not underflow.)
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Experienced player (689)
Joined: 2/5/2012
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i remember saying this game got special treatment years ago for no good reason,nice to see this being finally adressed,thanks judges(back then there was no vault and people still wanted to explain how more SM branches were relevant)
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
I understand your points Samsara and I wasn't trying to belittle it in any way. Maybe I shouldn't have said it that way. What I mean is the category is legit and has a place because it meets the same goals as the other runs just a different way to do them. To be honest it always feels like no matter how good each others points are we may never agree with some things but, I believe the only thing we can at least agree on is for a run to be accepted to TAS Videos it has to be optimized. Edit: 14% is low % and that was obsoleted by 13%. 16 stars while I do agree is entertaining in a way because it shows off glitches that you don't see it was once considered low% and it was replaced by 0 Stars. Now a 16 star multiple categories would be redundant so you would do the fastest stars possible because collecting stars is not collecting different items to achieve the same goal. Different Items make movement and mechanics different which is way Super Metriod is different from other games.
My name is Forensics.
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2108)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
That's called routing, though. If an SMW TASer redoing 96-exits found that it was faster to use a fire flower in Chocolate Secret instead of using the cape, they would consider that an improvement, not a new category. No loopholes there: It changes the movement drastically throughout the level, which is the same as what getting a different item in SM would be. A category is determined by its end goal, not the means of getting there. Even if the routes for Super Metroid change one aspect of the gameplay, that doesn't mean it's worth showcasing them on the site. Imagine if there were 5 or 6 different ways of achieving 13% item completion. Do we need all of them published? No. We don't even need two of them published, because all of them are going to achieve the same goal in the end, and the majority of the audience wants to see the fastest/most entertaining one. Leave the niche runs in the niche, just give us the best and that's it.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
I never cared to argue I've said my points. So Super Metroid is now boring to TAS because underflow runs will probably obsolete everything. It was named underflow because sniq (founder) named it that and I will not call it anything else.
My name is Forensics.
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 539
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Overflow. And only if the distinction between non-glitched and glitched is made. "Uses/Avoids heavy glitch abuse" are two separate tags, and I don't see a problem with there being a fastest 13% without overflow, and a 13% with overflow. It's 13% PB-Speed, 13% PB-Ice, and 13% PB-X-Ray that I don't want to see different branches of, because /those/ are routing choices, not branches.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Well some people don't want 2 categories and Super Metroid is dead now.
My name is Forensics.
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2108)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Invariel wrote:
I don't see a problem with there being a fastest 13% without overflow, and a 13% with overflow.
I do, because it's still the exact same goal. If under/over flow isn't received well by the audience, we will reject it in favor of a non-over/under flow run, and then from there we will only accept the fastest route from those. If under/over/hustle and flow ends up being well-liked by the audience, then it just becomes part of the same system: Everything else is just a route in comparison, the fastest one will obsolete it and we won't publish any slower ones alongside. Discounting a time-saving technique because it's "not in the spirit of the game" is grounds for rejection, by the way, especially if you're using other glitches alongside it. If whateverflow is the fastest, work on and submit that one first. See what the audience decides, and then go from there. Just, for the love of God, have some common sense.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Player (41)
Joined: 1/22/2014
Posts: 38
Location: Sweden
I agree with that we shouldn't have multiple branches of the same category where items collected is the only difference, so ideally we should only end up with one low% (13%) run. This run should in my opinion be a run that is not using the overflow glitch since this run would follow the same set of "rules" as the currently existing low% runs that exist on the site. These rules being that it does not use any "major glitches" to complete its goal, different from the "game end glitch" 2% run (which can be considered low%, but uses major glitches). This all obviously comes down to if we would consider ammo overflow a major glitch or not in this situation, and I'd say that it is. It practically gives you infinite ammo and makes anything in the game after it into "super missile spam everything".
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Invariel
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It's overflow, not underflow. And TASing isn't normal play. TASing is about as far away from normal play as you can get.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Joined: 6/8/2015
Posts: 30
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Noxxa
They/Them
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Invariel wrote:
It's overflow, not underflow. And TASing isn't normal play. TASing is about as far away from normal play as you can get.
Just because the overflow glitch is particularly influential in normal play doesn't mean that it cannot still be considered a major glitch for both speedrunning and TASing purposes. Keep in mind that most categories, particularly low% and any%, already are bound to "no major glitches" as a rule, because otherwise they would be 2% ACE or 6% X-Ray glitch runs instead of the current 13%/14% and 18%/19% runs (for low% and any% respectively). Considering that even in a speedrunning or TAS setting, the overflow glitch substantially affects the rest of the game from where it is executed, there definitely are fair reasons to consider it a major glitch for the purposes of these categories.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
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Well now it feel like we are taking a step in the right direction and Super Metroid is not dead as I felt in the last page. Progress is a great thing. Now I don't mean to stir the pot again how does everyone feel about 100% Glitched as a category?
My name is Forensics.
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
I agree that 13% (with whatever item combination gives the best route) and no overflow makes most sense for a low% category. Any other variation could be interesting to see but has no business being published here. Also if Taco finishes his any% run and someone makes a 13% run we'll get to obsolete 4 old TASes with 2 new ones, which would be good.
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Now I don't mean to stir the pot again how does everyone feel about 100% Glitched as a category?
Should probably obsolete the current 100% run, but I don't think I'd like it since Space/Time beam would make it pretty ugly. I'd prefer a new one to incorporate all of the new glitches but without Space/Time beam, OoB travel, overflow and whatever else is gamebreaking. But as always it's up to whoever makes it.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
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