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Posted: 6/11/2016 3:27 PM
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JoshButro
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Joined: 1/8/2015
Posts: 43
I appreciate the reply. Turning the music off for saving lag frames isn't the main reason for this TAS. It seems silly it works that way to 'save frames' lol. It most screens (probably greater than half), I can find more optimal routes due to new RTA strats and new learned TAS strats. There is also time to be saved by this run not trying to be deathless. That of itself caused the last TAS to be not optimal. You do bring up an interesting point. Altering the v2 TAS by taking out the music is now comparing apples to oranges to the v1 TAS. So I guess I'm posting this question now, since I'm 1% into the game. Would it be better to TAS it with music ON to compare it to the v1TAS easier, or music OFF to 'save arbitrary lag frames' for the best possible time? There are frames to be saved from lag music and from gameplay.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 6/11/2016 6:53 PM
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KusogeMan
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Joined: 2/5/2012
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if the game is short people won't miss the music,if it's long it can subtract from entertainment. for the time comparison,it's easier to do with music so i suppose it's better with music if you want to make the judge's job easier(you can also provide tables to help if you decide to go on with the musicless version).
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Posted: 6/11/2016 6:53 PM
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Samsara
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Homebrew TAS of 2023 Exotic platforms TAS of 2020 Sega TAS of 2016
It's negligible as long as there are gameplay improvements. Whoever's judging it will be able to differentiate between lag improvements and gameplay improvements. So go with whatever you want. However I should bring up the Tekken submission thread, more specifically the recent sets of posts about the choice to turn off the music. It seems most people disagree with the practice even for Vault runs, especially for runs as long as this, so take caution if you choose to keep going. It'll be accepted no matter what as long as there's gameplay improvement, though.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Posted: 6/11/2016 7:10 PM
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JoshButro
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Joined: 1/8/2015
Posts: 43
I definitely appreciate the feedback from both of you. The more I think about it, the cheesier it seems to save frame from basically a hardware thing, instead of gameplay. Only being (1/80) into the game, won't take long to reTAS and leave the music on. For entertainment value: the game will be between 60-62 minutes, so an hour of silence might take away from the game. I will reTAS the first screen, and post a WIP in the week of how it goes so far. After 1/80 I am 9f ahead, so already an improvement lol. Thanks again.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 6/11/2016 11:01 PM
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JoshButro
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I'm not sure if anyone will care if I double post. I think I'm the only Q*Bert 3 TASer, lol. Re-TASed and left the music on, so it is a fair comparison to the v1 TAS. So far... I found out how bad of a TASer I was on the v1. 3f saved on the Start Menu, 4f saved on the Level 1 intro [call those learning how to TAS] The real improvements: Saved 9f on 1-1 [The math is above]. Saved 8f on 1-2, same strategy as 1-1. Having 4 less objects on screen, and 2 less jumps, and using 1 disk, saved the frames. This strategy works for now as it seems all disks (so far) take 189f to use. Jumping speed is 35f/jump, but when that decreases later, is disk speed the same, and will using a disk overcome the time spent vs jumping, Right now 35f jumps vs 1 disks equals 5 jumps, later when jumping is closer to 15-20f, that is a big difference.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 6/13/2016 7:49 PM
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CoolKirby
Editor, Experienced player (570)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4038
Exotic platforms TASer of 2014 NES TAS of 2013
JoshButro wrote:
I found out how bad of a TASer I was on the v1. 3f saved on the Start Menu, 4f saved on the Level 1 intro [call those learning how to TAS]
Hey, it happens. At least you found it this soon when going through the improved run.
JoshButro wrote:
Saved 9f on 1-1 [The math is above]. Saved 8f on 1-2, same strategy as 1-1. Having 4 less objects on screen, and 2 less jumps, and using 1 disk, saved the frames.
Those sound like some pretty good improvements. Even if you only save 8 frames over 80 screens, that's an over 10 second-timesave. But you'll likely find more improvements as you go on; it helps to have an older run to compare to.
Posted: 6/14/2016 11:51 PM
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JoshButro
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The v1 TAS is good to compare to, however that TAS was done deathless, which is not the fastest possible time. There are 2 screens I immediately think of, that have drastic improvements by taking a death, and a few more that could have smaller saves. Life management (I think) will be important in this TAS. Death abuse can save a lot of time [especially on levels of 'Frogg-death]. The old movie will help, and some of the screens I believe are already optimzed and can not be anymore, but we will see. So far the first 4 screens have seen improvements I didn't know were possible.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 6/16/2016 12:27 AM
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JoshButro
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Joined: 1/8/2015
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I feel slightly silly. Been awhile since I uploaded a WIP and had to find it... but I did. lol. Anyways... http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/31620324977922482 is the WIP for Level 1. Notes to look for on Level 1: -Improved Game Start and Level 1 Intro sequences [call it I learned to TAS better lol] 1-1 - Screen reroute based on it's faster to take the disc and less have less enemies on the screen (I shall call it the "Disc for less enemies" strat lol) and it is 1 jump shorter. [9frames saved] 1-2 - same "Disc for less enemies" strat as 1-1. This strat will be primarily used on screens that have too many enemies when the board is finished. Also 1 jump shorter [8frames saved]. 1-3 - same "Disc for less enemies" strat. 1 jump shorter. [8 or 9 frames saved, i don't have my notes in front of me.] 1-4 - I could not find a faster route than the v1 TAS. I believe this level is optimized. I ran it differently and saved 1 frame... overall i remember at this point through the fade to black on 1-4. I have saved 36frames. I do believe the first 4 screens are completely optimized unless someone can see a completely brand new route, but the number of jumps are minimized for those screens. Level 2 is where optimization will start to be fun lol. I say that with all the sarcasm in the world. I am starting to look at mathematically what is the minimum number of jumps needed and how to route to complete the board minimally or just over. Enemies ruin optimal movement, so it is a tradeoff, but there may be a right and wrong answer.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 6/18/2016 5:56 PM
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JoshButro
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Posts: 43
Status Update: Level 2-1 is done, better than I thought, but I have a question: First the fanfare of saving 43 frames total on one screen... by wasting 23 frames. Is that a standard practice of TASing? I saved 1 jump (35 frames - not the focus of this question) but delayed the final jump by 23 frames, in order to cancel out counting 1 object for 32 frames. Delaying (+)23 frames, took out (-)32 frames for a net savings of 9 frames. I guess my question is: Is it ok to delay and take no action, to have an overall savings in frames? After 2-1 Fade To Black: 79 frames total so far.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 10/11/2016 10:30 PM
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CoolKirby
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JoshButro wrote:
I guess my question is: Is it ok to delay and take no action, to have an overall savings in frames?
Yes. As long as there is a net gain of frames, then it's entirely valid and is sometimes used in luck manipulation and lag reduction to save time overall.
Posted: 9/15/2017 5:25 AM
Post subject: Passing the torch
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JoshButro
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Joined: 1/8/2015
Posts: 43
Spoke with Nymx. He may TAS this game. Any part of my TAS can be used in the new version if needed. I know this should be stated as confusion of using the same old TAS isn't well received. (See: Super Metroid Ceres escape). This game is essentially 80 separate puzzles. I'm not saying my solution is the perfect optimal solution, but reusing my old TAS is permitted if needed. I'll change here periodically if a new TAS is started. Good luck!
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 2/8/2018 6:39 PM
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nymx
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JoshButro, are you planning on making a TAS of the X-pert Levels? I would like to see this game get finished with all that it has to offer. Making a TAS for the main part was fun, but I see that these extra levels are going to be highly difficult to optimize.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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