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TASeditor wrote:
Considering that AGDQ lacked an explanation of what a TAS is and how it's made, I suggest picking up a TAS that is impressive to watch, but doesn't have a lot of tricks to explain, so the presenters can focus on explaining the concepts of TASing.
How would you differentiate this from the Mega Man explanation from SGDQ? I overall agree with the need for this but I'm concerned that pitching the same thing a second year in a row would get rejected by the submission committee. At the moment my plan is to do a fair bit of this explanation via the Anatomy of an Arbitrary Control Exploit idea, if possible. Thoughts?
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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dwangoAC wrote:
How would you differentiate this from the Mega Man explanation from SGDQ? I overall agree with the need for this but I'm concerned that pitching the same thing a second year in a row would get rejected by the submission committee. At the moment my plan is to do a fair bit of this explanation via the Anatomy of an Arbitrary Control Exploit idea, if possible. Thoughts?
I don't mean that you need to show in emulator how it is made, just explaining while a TAS plays back.
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TASeditor wrote:
I don't mean that you need to show in emulator how it is made, just explaining while a TAS plays back.
Sure, this is definitely a goal. My hope is to rehearse a lot more (same amount of rehearsal from a technical perspective as we did at AGDQ 2016, but far more presentation rehearsal as we've pretty much always failed to actually do that). Question, though, do you have a particular TAS you would consider impressive that you think would be a good thing to talk over? As noted , my current plan is to do that over the top of SML2 but that might not be enough time, we'll have to see. Thanks for your input!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Might be unnecessary to repeat it, but anyway, learning from the AGDQ, if there's a chance that the viewers might not be aware of what exactly is running the game, and what is controlling it, a brief explanation could be useful and nice. Also, saying which console is being used (and that it really is a real console, and not eg. an emulator, or a modded console, or a modded game). It would be nice if the console (and tasbot being directly connected to it) would be shown on camera, but I don't know if that's feasible due to their physical setup.
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EEssentia wrote:
If you don't inject the signal so that it starts off in the system at the beginning of each clock period, you're likely going to have timing violations or other weirdness. How can you guarantee that you're balancing the wires from the oscillator such that it arrives at exactly the right time in the system?
I... what? He was talking about completely removing the crystal oscillators that generate the clock signal in the consoles; there would be no more clock signal in the console that you need to synch anything to. Instead of the stock clock, an external signal would be supplied to take over that function. It would be supplied in the exact same place where the original crystal oscillator was before, so there would be no need to consider in-console clock skew (it was considered when they designed the console); clock skew between consoles might be a factor, and would need to be dealt with. Using the same length of wires to distribute clock signal from the clock driver to all consoles would deal with that nicely. And yes, systems with multiple crystal oscillators would pose more of an issue because you would need to consider clock skew when distributing the multiple clocks; but many of those older systems used one single higher frequency crystal and used clock divisors to generate signals for the multiple components.
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marzojr wrote:
I... what? He was talking about completely removing the crystal oscillators that generate the clock signal in the consoles; there would be no more clock signal in the console that you need to synch anything to. Instead of the stock clock, an external signal would be supplied to take over that function. It would be supplied in the exact same place where the original crystal oscillator was before,
I missed a "not" in there, apparently, but yes, I understand that the idea is to completely remove the oscillator and use a single one external oscillator to provide the clock signal to all consoles.
so there would be no need to consider in-console clock skew (it was considered when they designed the console);
Ah sorry, I probably confused myself there. I thought we had to synchronize the clock signal in the system, but of course that's not true because we're generating the clock signal, not some external input.
clock skew between consoles might be a factor, and would need to be dealt with. Using the same length of wires to distribute clock signal from the clock driver to all consoles would deal with that nicely.
I don't know how easy it is, but those wires needs to be balanced so that the skew between them is minimized. But considering the low frequency, I don't support that matters all too much.
Post subject: Submitting for SGDQ 2016 in less than 24 hours!
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I plan to submit all content for SGDQ 2016 in less than 24 hours, give or take. Here is what I plan to submit at this time:
  • Speed TAS competition and race (15 minutes): This time around, we're doing this up front. The game for the speed TAS competition is... NES-Pack by Mothrayas! Yes, I know, the whole point of a speed TAS competition is to not have access to the full game, but we're switching it up this time to allow more people to participate. Mothrayas has provided the above demo to demonstrate all of the physics and mechanics of the game, but expect the levels, graphics, and even the sounds and music to change and expand from what's here. If physics or other core mechanics change we'll release an updated demo. This should make for a fun competition! I'll be pitching this as race between the winner of the competition and a practiced human.
  • Anatomy of an Arbitrary Code Exploit (15 minutes): At this time we have not yet been able to console verify SML2 but I'm convinced that it's the right choice for this topic. I'll pitch this without a mention of console verification as the fallback is to do the work in an emulator instead (and, honestly, it might make more sense to do so anyway). Donation incentive is to replay the pause glitch 41 second run.
  • Super Scribblenauts (15 minutes): We think we have a volunteer, maybe kinda sorta, to do the rest of the scripting needed and this is in general worth pitching one more time.
  • VVVVVV 20 trinkets, no death (20 minutes): It took bocat1584 a few tries but he finally convinced me that this is definitely the right thing to pitch.
  • ? - The 5th and final game to pitch is a harder choice. There have been some great suggestions in this thread and I'm just not yet certain what to pitch as the last thing. Whatever it is needs to be a real console verification for the sake of balance and needs to be reasonably short to have any chance of getting in. Last minute votes / thoughts?
I'm only expecting 45 minutes of time for SDGQ based on how full the schedule is likely to get (1 hour total with setup time) so it is improbable that more than 3 of these ideas will fit but it's worth seeing what sticks. I will be rehearsing these like crazy this time to hit the time targets I've set so as to not repeat the overrun from last time.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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GRADIUS!!!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If all else fails, I can lend my Sonic Advance 2 copy along with the GBPP again.
Post subject: New version of NES-Pack Demo V1.1
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Minor changes to NES-Pack - B now acts as a jump only button, minor wording changes, A and B now make it possible to select things in menu, and pressing select during reset animation no longer cancels it. I've updated the above post. I'm working on submissions process today and they will be going out one at a time, still quite undecided on what to pitch for the 5th entry, may do some testing on something I have in mind.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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I agree with feos that Gradius would be a good one. I also know one of the Monopoly runs was suggested; I think that would be a good idea too. On that note, I would be partial to the 4-CPU run.
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Post subject: SGDQ 2016 submissions are done!
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I've completed submissions. For the 5th game, I opted to pitch [2636] NES Super Mario Bros., 2, The Lost Levels & 3 by agwawaf in 08:49.78. I'd like to thank everyone in IRC for lending a hand with various tasks. Nach helped flesh out the NES-Pack game resources page and xy2_ posted the video in the previous comment which I used for the submission. I created a video showing that it only takes a couple of minutes to set up two consoles with different games, even without pre-connecting visualization boards: Link to video If you want to check in on the progress, head to https://gamesdonequick.com/submission/all and filter on dwangoAC. I'm pretty happy with the submission descriptions and category choices I came up with, although I would have liked more space to thank the individual TAS'ers who made this all possible.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Thank you! I suggest to make something simple where you could put 2 input displays exactly side-by-side for a better effect. A cardboard frame maybe?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: All SGDQ 2016 submissions representing TASVideos
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One problem with always pointing people at the submissions page on the GamesDoneQuick.com site is it eventually disappears into history as it is wiped at the start of each event cycle. Here's exactly what I pitched for SGDQ 2016 including the categories for historical reference:
  • NES-Pack by Mothrayas - SDA vs. TASVideos: NES-Pack (http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/NES/NESPack.html) is a 2016 game created by Mothrayas and is inspired by the 1993 DOS game Jetpack. With maze-like levels and a fuel-consuming jetpack, NES-Pack is an accessible choice for some healthy SDA/SRL vs. TASVideos competition. The demo above will be expanded with more levels and released during SGDQ with the winner of a speed TAS competition facing off against a realtime runner who has had plenty of time to routeplan and practice.
  • Super Mario Land 2 memory tour: Few games have glitches as visceral as Mario literally strolling out-of-bounds right through memory locations with individual bytes conveniently represented as various types of blocks. In this run, dwangoAC will briefly wander through this strange place and show how interacting with these blocks has a direct impact on how the game behaves, culminating in a surprise ending. As a donation incentive, a pause glitch can be demonstrated that ends the game in only 41 seconds.
  • TASBot multiplays SMB1, 2, and 3: Super Mario Bros. 1, 2, and 3... simultaneously, using the exact same button presses? That's exactly what this is - as unbelievable as it may sound, TASBot will play two or more games from http://tasvideos.org/2636M.html at the same time using the exact same sequence of button presses. If someone can get an FDS and a copy of Lost Levels to SGDQ we can even make it a quad replay! The SMB1 and SMB3 category video demonstrates a 2:45 setup time and console verification with visualization boards.
  • TASBot plays VVVVVV: There are 20 collectable "Shiny Trinkets" hidden throughout the game. There is also a no death mode which cuts off your gameplay if you die once. There are no known unassisted completions with this combination, but this TAS by Masterjun makes it look easy while simultaneously triggering several graphical glitches. Sure to entertain, this run can be followed up with a donation incentive for the very fast game end glitch run.
  • Twitch plays Super Scribblenauts: Twitch chat interacting in Pokemon Plays Twitch was one of the most memorable moments of AGDQ 2015 and we want to bring back that fun... for a price. This should be a donation incentive or limited to subscribers and will involve Twitch chat directly solving hilarious puzzles in Super Scribblenauts by interacting with a channel bot and creating objects by popular vote.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Post subject: SML2, SMB 1+2+3, and VVVVVV accepted for SGDQ!
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Announcement: https://gamesdonequick.com/submission/all (optionally filter on dwangoAC) shows that SML2 memory tour plus pause glitch, TASBot multiplay of SMB 1 + 2 + 3, and VVVVVV all trinkets plus glitch run made it in. Super Scribblenauts and NES-Pack regrettably did not make it in, but I will be re-submitting both runs at future GDQ events because I think both of them have merits. Now on to the next part - making the runs we have that made it shine! Expect more from me late this week, as I plan out how best to use my time between now and the marathon.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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I'm not sure if it's alright, but apparently, Link to the Past has total control that can be reached within 3 minutes, and Acmlm had ideas on what to do. Maybe this game would be a good highlight, given it's not a platformer like the ones previously shown. Unless of course this was done before and I never knew.
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jlun2 wrote:
I'm not sure if it's alright, but apparently, Link to the Past has total control that can be reached within 3 minutes, and Acmlm had ideas on what to do. Maybe this game would be a good highlight, given it's not a platformer like the ones previously shown. Unless of course this was done before and I never knew.
Well, SGDQ 2016 is set in stone, but I'm definitely considering some of the recent arbitrary code exploit discoveries for AGDQ 2017, specifically LoZ:LttP - I think that game has a huge list of things going for it including a healthy heaping of nostalgia. Consider me on board for a future event.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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dwangoAC wrote:
jlun2 wrote:
I'm not sure if it's alright, but apparently, Link to the Past has total control that can be reached within 3 minutes, and Acmlm had ideas on what to do. Maybe this game would be a good highlight, given it's not a platformer like the ones previously shown. Unless of course this was done before and I never knew.
Well, SGDQ 2016 is set in stone, but I'm definitely considering some of the recent arbitrary code exploit discoveries for AGDQ 2017, specifically LoZ:LttP - I think that game has a huge list of things going for it including a healthy heaping of nostalgia. Consider me on board for a future event.
LttP could work well for a "TASbot plays a mystery game" part, just because now everybody will expect SMW or All Stars ^^. Can someone create a false sticker SMW label to put on top of the LttP cartridge label? Then it would be removed once the game starts. Hehehe :P
Post subject: Status updates on SGDQ 2016 progress
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It's been a while since my last post and it's time for an update or two. In no particular order: - I've spent some time cooking up donation incentives. The easy ones were what was already accepted on the schedule, namely the SML2 glitch run and the VVVVVV glitch run. I pitched an idea to allow Twitch Chat to pick the game whose audio is being heard for SMB 1 + 2 + 3 with the idea being that it could be changed on the fly as donation totals change. Raelcun is (rightfully) concerned that it might not sound as good as I am mentally imagining it will and the game might not be long enough for it to make sense, but that didn't stop Spikestuff from suggesting a fourth option - anarchy, in the form of all three game's audio being heard simultaneously. If the donation incentive doesn't get met, I'll instead spend extra time with the sound team to let them know where in the commentary to switch audio or a way for me to do it myself. - Speaking of SMB 1 + 2 + 3, I successfully console-verified all three games at the same general time by using a surge protector and a very specific combination of consoles and power supplies (I have one barely working console and one aftermarket power supply and figuring out which combination of games with consoles with power supplies with nuisance voltage took a rather decent bit of testing). These power issues initially led me to try a test by releasing the reset switches on three consoles at the same time, but that turned out to be.. quite the challenge, as captured in this epic tweet. I eventually managed to make it work using the surge protector but the consoles weren't lined up as well as I would have liked so I'm researching methods of switching the consoles on using a single DC power connection. More testing is needed here, but I feel confident in the general concept. - SML2 - I've been doing a bit of streaming at https://www.twitch.tv/dwangoac on this and it *is* coming along, but things aren't exactly going well. It's unclear at this time if console verification is even possible without a lot of twiddling. The current plan is to use Endrift's GBPP but so far we haven't had much success and it's not yet clear if it can be made to work. The current expected fallback is to do everything for this game in an emulator, which isn't all bad as my intent is to show how things work using lsnes anyway. I need to reach out to MUGG and continue to do some additional research on the best route that would work on all cartridge versions (desirable for others to reproduce by hand) as well as the best path down to memory that would work while still retaining fireballs. I'm not yet certain that's even a hard requirement, we just know that fireballs can have a different effect on memory but it's not yet clear if any of those effects are desirable. The end goal remains to gain some manner of total control but we may have to settle with subtly altering some other aspect of the game instead. - VVVVVV - I (well, @MrTASBot with the help of several #tasbot 140 character wordsmiths) reached out to Terry Cavenagh, the developer of VVVVVV to see if he would be interested in providing commentary. Unfortunately, right after that a big news story hit that was likely quite a distraction which you can read in some great coverage by Ars Technica's Kyle Orland - namely, Nintendo pulled VVVVVV off of the 3DS to stop hackers from loading unsigned homebrew software. I'll check in with Terry after the dust has settled a bit more and see if he's willing to lend a hand. In addition to commentary I'm hoping to get a blessed copy of VVVVVV 2.0 from him. There's still time to put everything in place but I am starting to panic a bit as I've been so busy with work and end-of-school-year activities with the kids that it's been hard to find as much time as I would like to practice. I've made some good strides in setting up a good place to stream and practice commentary, though, and I feel good about being ready from a presentation perspective even if the technical aspects are at some amount of risk. As is usually the case I won't turn down help so if you have an interest in searching around in SML2 or watching SMB 1 + 2 + 3 and providing time offsets of where interesting things happen that are worth mentioning during live commentary just let me know. One other note - I was considering pitching a talk for DEF CON but I couldn't decide exactly what to pitch. After considering what I could best do as an Ambassador for TASVideos I decided it makes the most sense to narrow in on just one idea, namely that finding exploits and glitches in video games using the powerful tools we have at our disposal can be a very entertaining introduction into the world of security vulnerabilities. I'd want the primary focus to be on educating people on TAS tools and turning on the lightbulb of how to take the skills used in creating TAS's and applying them to other things. Unfortunately, I was under the impression that the call for papers ran through May 15th, and instead it closed on May 2nd and I've missed the opportunity for this year. I'm sad I missed it but this is probably for the best, as planning for AGDQ 2017 is already in draft form and I can almost guarantee I'm going to be way too busy as it is. :) As always, there's much more to come - feel free to keep the conversation going here and I'll answer any questions that come up. Thanks all!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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- SML2 - I've been doing a bit of streaming at https://www.twitch.tv/dwangoac on this and it *is* coming along, but things aren't exactly going well. It's unclear at this time if console verification is even possible without a lot of twiddling. The current plan is to use Endrift's GBPP but so far we haven't had much success and it's not yet clear if it can be made to work. The current expected fallback is to do everything for this game in an emulator, which isn't all bad as my intent is to show how things work using lsnes anyway. I need to reach out to MUGG and continue to do some additional research on the best route that would work on all cartridge versions (desirable for others to reproduce by hand) as well as the best path down to memory that would work while still retaining fireballs. I'm not yet certain that's even a hard requirement, we just know that fireballs can have a different effect on memory but it's not yet clear if any of those effects are desirable. The end goal remains to gain some manner of total control but we may have to settle with subtly altering some other aspect of the game instead.
I'm not sure how possible it is for this game, but is there some other method of Arbitrary Code Execution that's simpler to verify such that you can probe around the game's memory and see what's different from emulator?
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jlun2 wrote:
I'm not sure how possible it is for this game, but is there some other method of Arbitrary Code Execution that's simpler to verify such that you can probe around the game's memory and see what's different from emulator?
Well, we need to *find* an Arbitrary Code Execution, there currently isn't one for the game at all. My goal is to do it in the out-of-bounds area so it's more visually obvious how things are happening. I'll take what I can get, though!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Not bringing any help to the point of the thread, just informing that there's a stable method to download from twitch unsegmented. http://pastebin.com/V2V8cALX
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: GDQ and site updates, some of them seriously important
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There is a literal backlog of updates, many of which are seriously important:
  • ais523 and I participated in an episode of Roguelike Radio discussing the NetHack TAS. During the podcast we talked about Games Done Quick involvement and promoted SGDQ 2016, so I figured I'd mention it here.
  • I picked up a better webcam and a condenser mic on some good sales and I'll likely be streaming on Twitch most nights this week to practice for SGDQ 2016.
  • I am self-funding my trip to SGDQ 2016. I was able to incorporate airfare with a business trip with permission and I anticipate my personal costs will be about $1k (I wouldn't turn down donations here but my goal is to ask for help as little as possible.)
  • Terry Cavenagh, the creator of VVVVVV, spent a considerable amount of his own personal time to find a DRM free version of VVVVVV 2.0. I'm happy to report he directly sent me a working build that I verified with Masterjun's 20 trinkets no death TAS and I have Terry's support for the project, although he declined to provide remote comentary and I'm still on the hunt for help with that.
  • I have secured couch commentary for SMB 1+2+3, thanks to a9azn2 and MeGotsThis. We did a practice round remotely and a9azn2 has written copious second-by-second notes so we're in great shape there.
  • link_777 has stepped up to the plate to help out with creating a run for SML2 and has offered to help with commentary. We need to practice said commentary and work a few other things out but it's looking very promissing.
  • micro500 has announced his TASLink project! TASLink is very rugged but is also very expensive owing to the materials costs of the cables and things like the Papilio Pro FPGA it requires, so we're still recommending true's boards for anyone who wants to replay TAS's outside of GDQ events.
  • I've console verified SMB 1+2+3 using TASLink with the visualization boards attached (as part of the aforementioned commentary practice). I'm still researching methods of mounting the visualization boards so they are more visible and I'm considering attaching them to a PowerGlove.
  • @theyetee asked "#SGDQ2016 viewers! Do you desire to have a @MrTASBot tee for the event?" with 69% of respondants agreeing. It's still not guaranteed but it's looking promising and a familiar face has already created some great art - stay tuned!
  • Unless things go awry I'll be presenting a segment promoting TASVideos and SGDQ 2016 on the Saturday, July 2nd episode of TWiT.TV's The New Screen Savers in studio with Leo Laporte.
  • Even though I missed the deadline for a talk at DEF CON, my talk pitch made it to the selection committee anyway and was accepted! I'll be presenting about how learning TAS tools can be a fun way to improve security research skills along with a live demo on August 5th at 4:00 (except all presentation materials are due July 8th, so I've been scrambling on that one.)
To say I've been busy organizing all manner of things behind the scenes is an understatement but I'm very happy with how things are coming together. This is a dense post, so I encourage everyone to ask me questions if you want more information. It's going to be a busy pre-GDQ week but I'm definitely happy with where we're at!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Joined: 2/15/2015
Posts: 12
dwango, as a heads up I wanted to let you know that we'll be using NES consoles at the event with the NESRGB mod to capture over s-video. I'm not aware of any timing differences since it uses the original CPU and leaves the PPU in place while bypassed. If you know of any problems getting sync with this mod installed, yell at us now.