Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007
If you do not want to know what is being planned, do not read this thread. I've discovered no one outside TASVideos actually reads the forums and GDQ events now require more manpower than before, hence the more open approach to planning. Each GDQ has its own forum thread. (Original post text)SGDQ events are where I hope to do more "basic" TAS'ing, as in, less overt console trickery and slightly less gimmicks with an emphasis of showing the audience what TASing is all about. At this time it is likely we will again do a race but it is unclear what other things will happen for SGDQ 2016. I currently have plans to console-verify a particular run on a 386 but there has been some resistance to this idea so I want to work out what that would look like before I post something more solid. This post will be edited frequently to reflect the current status; I will try my best to include a change history and link to explanatory posts as time progresses. Update, 2016-04-03: As of today https://gamesdonequick.com/submission/all (optionally filter on dwangoAC) shows that SML2 memory tour + pause glitch, TASBot multiplay in the category of SMB 1 + 2 + 3, and VVVVVV all trinkets + glitched run made it in. This means that Super Scribblenauts and NES-Pack did not make it in (*sniff*). We'll try again with both of those as I think they are strong contenders, but I'm overall happy that we yet again received a decent chunk of time, around 45 minutes factoring in non-game runtime presentation. One problem with always pointing people at the submissions page on the GamesDoneQuick.com site is it eventually disappears into history as it is wiped at the start of each event cycle. Here's exactly what I pitched for SGDQ 2016 including the categories for historical reference; I'll likely leave this in the top post for the time being while it's still relevant and later link to Post #430298:
  • NES-Pack by Mothrayas - SDA vs. TASVideos: NES-Pack (http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/NES/NESPack.html) is a 2016 game created by Mothrayas and is inspired by the 1993 DOS game Jetpack. With maze-like levels and a fuel-consuming jetpack, NES-Pack is an accessible choice for some healthy SDA/SRL vs. TASVideos competition. The demo above will be expanded with more levels and released during SGDQ with the winner of a speed TAS competition facing off against a realtime runner who has had plenty of time to routeplan and practice.
  • Super Mario Land 2 memory tour: Few games have glitches as visceral as Mario literally strolling out-of-bounds right through memory locations with individual bytes conveniently represented as various types of blocks. In this run, dwangoAC will briefly wander through this strange place and show how interacting with these blocks has a direct impact on how the game behaves, culminating in a surprise ending. As a donation incentive, a pause glitch can be demonstrated that ends the game in only 41 seconds.
  • TASBot multiplays SMB1, 2, and 3: Super Mario Bros. 1, 2, and 3... simultaneously, using the exact same button presses? That's exactly what this is - as unbelievable as it may sound, TASBot will play two or more games from http://tasvideos.org/2636M.html at the same time using the exact same sequence of button presses. If someone can get an FDS and a copy of Lost Levels to SGDQ we can even make it a quad replay! The SMB1 and SMB3 category video demonstrates a 2:45 setup time and console verification with visualization boards.
  • TASBot plays VVVVVV: There are 20 collectable "Shiny Trinkets" hidden throughout the game. There is also a no death mode which cuts off your gameplay if you die once. There are no known unassisted completions with this combination, but this TAS by Masterjun makes it look easy while simultaneously triggering several graphical glitches. Sure to entertain, this run can be followed up with a donation incentive for the very fast game end glitch run.
  • Twitch plays Super Scribblenauts: Twitch chat interacting in Pokemon Plays Twitch was one of the most memorable moments of AGDQ 2015 and we want to bring back that fun... for a price. This should be a donation incentive or limited to subscribers and will involve Twitch chat directly solving hilarious puzzles in Super Scribblenauts by interacting with a channel bot and creating objects by popular vote.
Original ideas, here for historical purposes:
  • Super Scribblenauts (Twitch Plays) - we've pitched it twice, it was accepted once but dropped for time, but third time's the charm. Requires more work from micro500 and I plus some additional scripting help to complete but is generally "safe".
  • Anatomy of an Arbitrary Code Exploit. I am actively working on re-implementing the current Super Mario Land 2 game end glitch and I hope to try for the earlier and much more visually interesting version if possible. If I can get it to work, my plan is to graphically show how memory is manipulated using the TAS itself, probably using a purpose-built TAS that has deliberate pauses so I can talk over it. This will require much work and has some risk as I have not yet proven that it can be console verified.
  • A "race", but a very different kind of race than last time. This time around, my plan would be to release a trial version of the game hopefully be the time we submit the runs that will allow people to get used to the game and find some potential glitches and mechanics of the game out ahead of time. This is at medium risk due to the games selection committee potentially rejecting it. (This turned into NES-Pack by Mothrayas, released early as a demo version for people to get used to the physics ahead of the competition.)
  • Something else that has been suggested in the thread so far, but I'm not sure which thing yet. It should very preferably be console verifiable as playing back movies was not well received. What's the most realistic and interesting thing that's already been floated? I know DeHackEd suggested Monopoly but I haven't verified that - could be a good choice, though!(I opted to go with [2715] Windows VVVVVV "20 trinkets, no death mode" by Masterjun in 17:33.77 and [2636] NES Super Mario Bros., 2, The Lost Levels & 3 by agwawaf in 08:49.78. I created a console verification video of SMB1 and SMB3 at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSO9u5htrQw)
(Pre-submission paragraph, left here for history) Here's the catch - submissions open on March 6th and close a week later on the 13th. That means, at most, we have 2 weeks from the date of this edit (2-27) to figure all of this out. That's not much time, but on the flipside we'll know for certain what is in by April 3rd and we'll have 3 months to perfect things after that date before SGDQ 2016 starts on July 3rd. Discuss, please. Status update posts: - 2016-05-07: I've written a substantial update covering donation incentives, contacting Terry for VVVVVV commentary, SML2 progress (or lack thereof), and other updates. - 2016-06-26: I've written a bombshell of an update post with news about everything from a potential TASBot T-Shirt to media relations, not to mention linking to micro500's new TASLink project. Updated 2016-02-27: Heavens, look at the time! (Added deadline note, current suggestions) Updated 2016-03-12: Added list of games submitted Updated 2016-03-13: Added exact submission text Updated 2016-03-13: Announcement of currently accepted runs (updated twice) Updated 2016-05-07: Status update post link Updated 2016-06-26: Major status update link posted
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
endrift
Any
Emulator Coder
Joined: 12/14/2014
Posts: 161
I'm hoping I can get Sonic Advance 2 verified before this, potentially leading to some sort of "hey let's do the next Sonic GBA game" every SGDQ, although that would probably get boring fast.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
What about separating mind-blowing and races? The former are already set up for Adgqs, while the latter might be left for Sgdqs. Some kind of a tradition if you will, reducing the preparation chaos a bit.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007
feos wrote:
What about separating mind-blowing and races? The former are already set up for Adgqs, while the latter might be left for Sgdqs. Some kind of a tradition if you will, reducing the preparation chaos a bit.
I'm willing to go either way on this, but my hard requirement more or less is that AGDQ is where we do "big" projects, SGDQ is for things that require less time. If a race is easy to organize for both I see no problem with doing it in both places but I definitely understand your point.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
One thing that might go over well is a layered playback of a TAS that's been heavily iterated, like the Super Metroid "ghost" encodes that people sometimes make. Maybe not do it for Super Metroid though. The idea would be to see each level/room/etc. with a bunch of different protagonists running through it and then seeing the places where various runs fall behind. It'd help give some idea of the kinds of things you have to keep in mind when making a TAS and what can keep you from going as fast as possible. It's the kind of thing you can only do with an encode, it's interesting and educational, and you can do run commentary to point out specific problem spots.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
I would personally like to see a same-input, multiple games run. Perhaps the Megaman quad run?
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
endrift
Any
Emulator Coder
Joined: 12/14/2014
Posts: 161
An idea I had while talking to RGamma was that the game for a race could be announced very early during SGDQ, giving people a whole 5 or 6 days to shape up an entry. This would allow for a longer game, and potentially more quality entries.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007
Raiscan wrote:
I would personally like to see a same-input, multiple games run. Perhaps the Megaman quad run?
I'm not saying no but this is likely infeasible to do this with console verification for a wide range of reasons, namely that most of those games haven't yet been console-verified at all and it would be neigh impossible to get all of the consoles to start at the same time (although I've considered trying it with a power strip). I have two NES consoles and I'm willing to try something but I don't see it working out as well as it sounds.
endrift wrote:
An idea I had while talking to RGamma was that the game for a race could be announced very early during SGDQ, giving people a whole 5 or 6 days to shape up an entry. This would allow for a longer game, and potentially more quality entries.
I'm not opposed but this would definitely make it a lot less intense. I agree that doing this would allow for longer games but I don't know if that would make the best contest and I suspect it would encourage people to band together into teams, which is not a bad thing but something to consider; we could *encourage* teamwork, I suppose... Let's keep this on the table - thanks for the suggestion.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 489
One idea I had is that if getting Family Feud console-verified for AGDQ 2016 won't be feasible, then play it on emulator during SGDQ 2016 instead. Part of the reason that some saw SGDQ 2015 as less exciting was because it was possible to see all the runs beforehand and know exactly what was going to happen, not just the fact that the runs weren't all console-verified. Showing a non-console-verified movie, but making it something new, would still greatly up the entertainment value (adding Twitch-specific jokes would also help in this regard).
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007
Zowayix wrote:
One idea I had is that if getting Family Feud console-verified for AGDQ 2016 won't be feasible, then play it on emulator during SGDQ 2016 instead. Part of the reason that some saw SGDQ 2015 as less exciting was because it was possible to see all the runs beforehand and know exactly what was going to happen, not just the fact that the runs weren't all console-verified. Showing a non-console-verified movie, but making it something new, would still greatly up the entertainment value (adding Twitch-specific jokes would also help in this regard).
I don't disagree with you in practice, but there are some things to consider. First, watch this: Link to video You can also see the original movie file as well - thanks go to TASEditor for working on this and having a great attitude when we discovered it didn't sync reliably. If you think it's a good idea to show that (and I don't because I find some of the jokes a bit over the top / too mature for the venue), then we have to consider whether it's a better pitch than some of the other ideas and there's just so much dead time while waiting for the answers to appear that I think we'd be better off with other choices. The other challenge with Family Feud is we already pitched it and then didn't show it (for AGDQ 2015), so my preference is to just not do this again. We are somewhat bound by the submissions process for GDQ's to give at least some hint as to what we'll be doing to appease the selection committee so completely hiding the list of games likely isn't possible but I definitely understand your point. We can certainly do mystery games again like we did with SMB on SMW. Thanks for the feedback!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 489
Agreeing that some of the jokes there would not be suitable for the general GDQ audience. However, I'd say the pacing of the answers themselves is perfectly fine - it gives viewers time to voice their reactions, and personally, when I'm watching there's never a moment when I'm at all bored waiting for the next thing to show up. Since you mentioned that current SGDQ 2016 plans/ideas are unclear right now, this could still be a potential pitch.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
"trihard stop it" -> "vacation". Is it just me, or could you write almost anything there and it would probably accept it as some of the answers? Half of the letters in "vacation" don't even appear in the written answer (and even those that do, don't appear in the same order).
Masterjun
He/Him
Site Developer, Skilled player (1970)
Joined: 10/12/2010
Posts: 1179
Location: Germany
Warp wrote:
"trihard stop it" -> "vacation".
More like: "trihard stop it" -> "trip" -> "vacation"
Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
So as long as the answer contains all the letters from one of the valid answers in the same order, it doesn't matter how many additional letters there are in-between them?
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Warp wrote:
So as long as the answer contains all the letters from one of the valid answers in the same order, it doesn't matter how many additional letters there are in-between them?
That's it, pretty much; IIRC there are a few special cases but they mostly don't come up. (It's also why most of the joke answers tend to be fairly long.)
Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 489
It's even more lenient than that in some cases - for certain long answers (such as "Name a sign no one seems to obey" -> "Keep off the grass"), the game is really only looking for one word in the answer (in this case "grass"). Furthermore, all double letters in whatever word the game is looking for will be ignored, so anything that matches "GRAS" will be accepted as "Keep off the grass". The published TAS on the site uses "Ogres allowed sparingly". Another example is how anything that matches "COFE" will be accepted as "coffee".
ALAKTORN
He/Him
Player (99)
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
Is it me or is not much planned for SGDQ 2016 yet?
Joined: 12/31/2009
Posts: 174
ALAKTORN wrote:
Is it me or is not much planned for SGDQ 2016 yet?
Try TASVideos AGDQ 2016 preparations or AGDQ 2016 planning / Brain Age art discussion (spoilers).
endrift
Any
Emulator Coder
Joined: 12/14/2014
Posts: 161
I'm going to try to verify more GBA runs, but it's really time to start thinking about SGDQ.
Editor
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
I think that [717] NES Monopoly "4 CPUs" by FractalFusion in 01:07.67 Should be shown. It not only shows what a TAS can do with regards to Luck Manipulation but it also works on non-gamers. As the non-gamer can look at the analog/physical game and realize, the odds of this, are Incredibly high. The rules of this game are pretty easy to understand as well. Get all the money from everyone else.
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
http://tasvideos.org/GamesDoneQuick/AGDQ2016.html This page proves there's a huge lack of explanation in the tasblock. I stated earlier that 100% verification is more important, so that nothing goes wrong any more, so I generally don't think it was anyone's fault that there was so little explanation, but I think this also needs careful consideration for future. Thankfully, we have SGDQ for that sort of things, but it doesn't seem like the general audience cares enough to follow both A and S and understand what's going on, so while still focusing on explanations on SGDQs, future AGDQs also seem to need the some explanations quite badly.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Also I found the lack of explanations bothering, even though I was more aware of what was going on. What I would have liked to see was for each demonstration, a clearer explanation of the setup. In other words, what exactly was running the TAS (the microchip on the hands of the robot) and what exactly the robot was connected to ie. which console in particular. (For example especially in the SMW total control demonstration no mention whatsoever was made about which console was being used, or even if it was a console in the first place. This could have been made much clearer. Optimally it would have also been shown on camera, although this might not be very practical.) For the Brain Age demonstration I would have liked to hear a better explanation of the setup, ie. make it a lot clearer that tasbot was really controlling an actual DS, and what was and wasn't changed about said console to make it possible. (This was done quite in passing, and I felt it wasn't even nearly enough.) Also a mention that the game was completely original and unmodified. For the SMB3 demonstration a mention that it's the original unmodified game running on the original unmodified console, with just tasbot feeding input through the controller port. I got the feeling that the presenters kind of took for granted that everybody was aware of what's going on, on the technical side (or that it wasn't all that important to explain it). I think it's important to make the viewers aware when unmodified consoles and games are being used, so that they don't immediately start thinking of hacks, mods and emulators. (Btw, not a fault of the TAS team, but it really, really aggravated me when at the beginning of the Brain Age demonstration the camera was panned so that tasbot and the console went out of the picture.)
Former player
Joined: 2/15/2015
Posts: 12
dwango, do you have a feeling for what consoles will be supported by the bot for SGDQ? We talked about adding more features beyond the existing replay boards. I'm assuming NES and SNES is a given. How likely would it be to get other consoles that have seen verifications such as Genesis or N64?
Editor, Player (68)
Joined: 1/18/2008
Posts: 663
dwangoAC wrote:
SGDQ is for things that require less time.
Try to be clear, articulate, and REALLY clear with this statement on-air and, if possible, with some other public method before the event.
Raiscan wrote:
I would personally like to see a same-input, multiple games run. Perhaps the Megaman quad run?
And if one of the consoles has a faster clock than the other? Then it won't be so neat anymore, since they're visually out of sync. To do this most effectively would require modifying consoles. That, and MM4 won't sync at all, MM5 is in a pretty bad state, some bugs exist for MM6. MM2 is reliable, MM3 might be, MM1 is not. If you can improve emulation so that all of these sync, then I would see what I could do about console clock timings and sync.
Gyre wrote:
dwango, do you have a feeling for what consoles will be supported by the bot for SGDQ? We talked about adding more features beyond the existing replay boards. I'm assuming NES and SNES is a given. How likely would it be to get other consoles that have seen verifications such as Genesis or N64?
  • NES = yes
  • SNES = yes, though datarate-limited for ACE exploits
  • N64 = yes, select games
  • GBA = somewhat; emulation is lacking
  • GB = not sure; probably, not sure of GBP capabilities. If needed and GBA target is acceptable I have one and can work on this, otherwise I need a GB.
  • DS = maybe nothing else except Brain Age right now Genesis = no, haven't heard from the botter in some time and it was pretty unique. I haven't finished the reset sync mod (determinizing hardware mod).
  • SMS = no, been waiting over a year for someone to make a quick Wonder Boy run for me to test viability, also emulators do not emulate startup state correctly
  • PC = no, though making an AT, PS2 or USB keyboard input emulator / playback device should not be difficult
true on twitch - lsnes windows builds 20230425 - the date this site is buried
endrift
Any
Emulator Coder
Joined: 12/14/2014
Posts: 161
It's worth noting that the Game Boy Player Player can in theory support GB games by virtue of being a GBA, but I've had no luck trying to verify any GB TASes. Perhaps I'm not using the right ones, though. I don't have very many GB games anyway.