with the recent discussion going on in the OoT thread, I think now's a good time to ask this question.
So I'm working on an "All Bosses" category for The Addams Family on SNES. playing casually you would have to defeat all bosses that reward you with family members. when you have all members saved, there's a small cut scene in a one room that plays a little song, then the door that prevents you from going to the end opens up. this allows you to travel to the final boss in the game.
In the any% TAS, the char clips through the gate that prevents them from going there early. shown here: https://youtu.be/Zoeuia2c4Kg?t=36s
I plan on doing this trick in "all bosses" but the thought came to me that I'm probably doing a task that doesn't even help me reach the end of the game if I'm just going to skip the door, that would otherwise prevent me from doing so. This might make the idea of doing all bosses pointless.
So my question is, is it prefered if I wait for that door to open up or would it be OK to clip through the door rather than waiting for the door to open?
if you need refrence at what that cutscene actually is, here's the timestamp to the longplay at 57:15:
https://youtu.be/HL4WfcpZT6M?t=57m15s
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
with the recent discussion going on in the OoT thread, I think now's a good time to ask this question.
So I'm working on an "All Bosses" category for The Addams Family on SNES. playing casually you would have to defeat all bosses that reward you with family members. when you have all members saved, there's a small cut scene in a one room that plays a little song, then the door that prevents you from going to the end opens up. this allows you to travel to the final boss in the game.
In the any% TAS, the char clips through the gate that prevents them from going there early. shown here: https://youtu.be/Zoeuia2c4Kg?t=36s
I plan on doing this trick in "all bosses" but the thought came to me that I'm probably doing a task that doesn't even help me reach the end of the game if I'm just going to skip the door, that would otherwise prevent me from doing so. This might make the idea of doing all bosses pointless.
So my question is, is it prefered if I wait for that door to open up or would it be OK to clip through the door rather than waiting for the door to open?
if you need refrence at what that cutscene actually is, here's the timestamp to the longplay at 57:15:
https://youtu.be/HL4WfcpZT6M?t=57m15s
As far as I know, there is nothing in the rules against this. I see no reason to necessarily require you to use the reward given by completing an ingame goal. Assuming you are not using memory corruption or ACE to cause the game to think you have killed the bosses without actually having done so, this should be fine.
EDIT: I believe there is precedence for this as well: Castlevania Portrait of Ruin All Bosses fights Brauner and opens up the end of the game long before fighting any of the intended prerequisite bosses for example.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
I think personally, since the run is called "all bosses" as long as you actually fight all the bosses, I would be fine. That door glitch feels like a minor issue to me.
So, this discussion came up in IRC, and I wanted to ask the opinion of somebody familiar with the games.
We were discussing cheats, and how that's an actual category on the movies, and I came up with a fringe case for using cheats that I might want to make a run out of one day in the (way, way, distant) future.
So for example with the LEGO Star Wars 100% category, buying cheats that you find in the levels is part of the 100% completion, and most of the prices for things you have to buy are balanced to those cheats. If I were to make a movie in that category for that game, or any other game in the series, would I be allowed to turn on the cheats I buy?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
arkiandruski wrote:
So for example with the LEGO Star Wars 100% category, buying cheats that you find in the levels is part of the 100% completion, and most of the prices for things you have to buy are balanced to those cheats. If I were to make a movie in that category for that game, or any other game in the series, would I be allowed to turn on the cheats I buy?
Is it mentioned in the manual? What is the usual way to learn about these cheats during normal play?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
If I recall the game correctly (and please correct me if I'm mistaken or thinking of something else), whilst they may be called "cheats" they're more along the lines of in-game perks. They're sold at an in-game store, using in-game currency collected throughout the levels. Each "cheat" becomes toggleable after it's purchased and performs a specific task, such as doubling or quadrupling the vale of the currency you collect, thus making goals easier. The developers also made some goals difficult or tedious to obtain during non-tool-assisted play without buying at least some of these cheats.
I'm not as active as I once was, but I can be reached here if I should be needed.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Why are they called cheats anyway?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I double checked, and they're called "Extras" in game. In my defense, they are things that are classically called cheats in other games, such as invincibility and greatly increasing the speed at which you gain studs (the in game currency)
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Regarding the LEGO games: I'm quite familiar with them.
There is a set place in each of the various LEGO games where you can enter codes/cheats to immediately unlock/activate the "extras" as mentioned by thecoreyburton. These codes were not included in any of the game documentation but were instead found included with actual LEGO kits purchased from a store that were the same licensing as the videogame.
However, it is possible to unlock all of these "extras" through normal gameplay by collecting (usually) red lego bricks scattered throughout the game. Once collected, the red brick can then be purchased/activated with in-game currency (LEGO studs) which then allows the player to enable the brick's bonus gameplay effect from the pause menu.
In my opinion, as long as the codes aren't used to acquire these bricks' effects, it's not cheating. It's a collection perk awarded for doing the extra work necessary to collect/purchase them.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
DrD2k9 wrote:
Regarding the LEGO games: I'm quite familiar with them.
There is a set place in each of the various LEGO games where you can enter codes/cheats to immediately unlock/activate the "extras" as mentioned by thecoreyburton. These codes were not included in any of the game documentation but were instead found included with actual LEGO kits purchased from a store that were the same licensing as the videogame.
However, it is possible to unlock all of these "extras" through normal gameplay by collecting (usually) red lego bricks scattered throughout the game. Once collected, the red brick can then be purchased/activated with in-game currency (LEGO studs) which then allows the player to enable the brick's bonus gameplay effect from the pause menu.
In my opinion, as long as the codes aren't used to acquire these bricks' effects, it's not cheating. It's a collection perk awarded for doing the extra work necessary to collect/purchase them.
This makes it a bit more complicated. If you have to buy some irrelevant merch or other products to learn about these cheats and how to access them, then they are forbidden. If the game present them to you, it's allowed. But now the question rises, whether we require the game to present them to you first, to allow you to use them after?
So far there's no clear ruling on such scenario. Is activating the cheats different for these 2 scenarios? For example, the game shows you the "XYZ" password after you do certain actions. And the same password is printed on your LEGO themed t-shirt's label. If the place where you enter that password is the same regardless, then I think it's allowed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
This makes it a bit more complicated. If you have to buy some irrelevant merch or other products to learn about these cheats and how to access them, then they are forbidden. If the game present them to you, it's allowed. But now the question rises, whether we require the game to present them to you first, to allow you to use them after?
So far there's no clear ruling on such scenario. Is activating the cheats different for these 2 scenarios? For example, the game shows you the "XYZ" password after you do certain actions. And the same password is printed on your LEGO themed t-shirt's label. If the place where you enter that password is the same regardless, then I think it's allowed.
The Extras can be found, purchased, and activated all within the game without using the code system at all. The codes/cheats were just a way to activate them earlier than would normally be possible in the course of regular gameplay.
In my opinion, using the codes to get the extras would be cheating as we define it on the site. Earning the extras through normal gameplay would not be cheating.
I think the concern of the original question was regarding the effects of the extras more so than the method of obtaining them.
For example, one of the extras in most (if not all) the LEGO games is permanent invincibility. Permanent invincibility can be perceived as cheating by those not familiar with how it was obtained; I think that was the original concern.
As long as the TASer doesn't use the code to acquire the ability, I think utilization of the earned perk should be allowed.
EDIT: For clarification, the game NEVER presents the codes.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
DrD2k9 wrote:
The codes/cheats were just a way to activate them earlier than would normally be possible in the course of regular gameplay.
For clarification, the game NEVER presents the codes.
This is the key. Since there is a legit way to access them, that legit way will be judged as legit, and the way using the external resources will be considered forbidden.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Not applicable to the current question, but related: is it allowed to glitch into a cheat/debug mode?
An example I've been thinking of recently is how many Sierra games have a debug or cheat mode. I know it's not permitted to enter the code to use that mode, as the code was never given in the instructions, nor was it ever intended to be part of normal gameplay. But what if you found a glitch that allowed you to take advantage of some of the code in the cheat mode? Is that allowed?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
c-square wrote:
Not applicable to the current question, but related: is it allowed to glitch into a cheat/debug mode?
An example I've been thinking of recently is how many Sierra games have a debug or cheat mode. I know it's not permitted to enter the code to use that mode, as the code was never given in the instructions, nor was it ever intended to be part of normal gameplay. But what if you found a glitch that allowed you to take advantage of some of the code in the cheat mode? Is that allowed?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Certain Wii games, primarily those focused around you playing as your Mii such as Wii Party and Wii Sports, can have time saved by having custom Miis made in Mii Maker stored in Wii memory (so that the player isn't forced to go out of their way to use guest Miis), and certain categories are only possible with the existence of custom-made Miis. What is the current stance of ruling in regards to this?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
TheProJamer wrote:
Certain Wii games, primarily those focused around you playing as your Mii such as Wii Party and Wii Sports, can have time saved by having custom Miis made in Mii Maker stored in Wii memory (so that the player isn't forced to go out of their way to use guest Miis), and certain categories are only possible with the existence of custom-made Miis. What is the current stance of ruling in regards to this?
I don't think there is any stance.
How does creation of them relate to Dolphin emulator movies (DTM)? You create them separately, share between consoles, and then when you start a movie, Mii is just already present there, and affects gameplay?
Also, in order to replay a DTM, if you don't have the custom Mii used by the author, what do you do to properly replay such a movie?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
So there's a Japanese Genesis game called Magical Hat. It looks entirely different from the American version of the game. The localization team though the game would be more appealing to American audiences if it was more Halloween themed, which ended up being "Decapattack". As far as I know, both games play in almost the exact same way, but there's some very minor differences in stages that can affect routing, but you can still tell that both games are incredibly simmilar. My question is even if it's a different version of the same game, but has a different look to it, could having small differences in its routing be enough to constitute it as a different game?
Edit: here's an example of what a TAS would look like for this game:
https://youtu.be/N-6iNH-QBz8
And here's Decapattack for comparison:
http://tasvideos.org/1429M.html
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Speaking of that run cheating to get the version exclusive chips and go for 100% completion: Would using the Wii U virtual console ROM, which has a feature to unlock version exclusive chips in the opposite game (go the multiplayer screen then leave, they're now all in your pack), be accepted? It's an official release, though never meant to be played outside of one very specific emulator.
If it is fine, a run aiming at moons should wait till the very end to do it instead of destroying everything with OP chips early.
Better to have an answer from a Judge, the original post was made in the Megaman battle network 3 white/blue thread.
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto.
TAS i'm interested:
Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS?
i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
grassini wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
Speaking of that run cheating to get the version exclusive chips and go for 100% completion: Would using the Wii U virtual console ROM, which has a feature to unlock version exclusive chips in the opposite game (go the multiplayer screen then leave, they're now all in your pack), be accepted? It's an official release, though never meant to be played outside of one very specific emulator.
If it is fine, a run aiming at moons should wait till the very end to do it instead of destroying everything with OP chips early.
Better to have an answer from a Judge, the original post was made in the Megaman battle network 3 white/blue thread.
Cheats that give unfair advantage are not allowed at all. Just like with e-reader levels in Super Mario Advance 4, if content is already unlocked (or available without cheats) in a VC release, it's the preferred game version for a goal that involves such unlocked content.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I created my first TAS on Road Rash II, however before submitting and possibly being denied I have some questions.
There are 5 tracks and 5 levels. Each track is different but are extended in length after completing each level. Level 1 track 1 will look the same as Level 2 track 1 but has a race length 2-3 miles longer. Other than some extra curves and randomly placed obstacles, would these two points in the submission rules apply, or would it be expected to complete all 5 levels? My TAS only consists of finishing the entirety of Level 1
Rules wrote:
The game consists of multiple rounds with new content appearing, and difficulty increases until it resets (overflows). For this the game must reach a point where no new content is left to complete.
Rules wrote:
The game reaches a point where difficulty stops increasing and no new content is left to complete.
If the game allows to choose which levels to visit, all such levels need to be visited to establish that no new content will appear anymore.
A second part to this is I am using a code to achieve a hidden bike (which is the fastest) in the game in order to perform unique jumps and finish races fast as possible at the same time. Would that apply as well to the second point as there is no more difficulty to increase?
Also, if I created the video before being told I should consider posting it on here and didn't enter a name as it suggest in the guidelines, am I going to be burned for it?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
All the rules about difficulty and unique content only apply to games with no clear ending. Is that the case for Road Rash II?
The name you enter is not required to match the guidelines, it's just nice if it does so. But we won't reject it if it doesn't.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
After beating the last race of Level 5, you are greeted to the same screen as finishing every race, though you're told that you're a champion. However after exiting the race standings screen you are pushed to the menu. If you select to race again you will do one more race, and after completing that race the game will just crash.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Here's what the manual says.
It wants you to beat all the 5 levels and rewards you with a special screen:
If it is correct that this screen is exclusive to beating all the levels, this may be considered a requirement for any% run of this game.
Since these screens are basically all this game gives you as a reward, and it seems to be doing this after every track, I don't think stopping at any particular level other than 5 can be seen as game completion.
Also it seems the game was not designed with any more gameplay in mind, if it forces you to the menu and then even crashes.
As for the code, if you mean the in-game password, such a thing can't serve as either any% or full completion goal, so it has to be really entertaining to be accepted as a side branch (similar to [802] SNES Biker Mice from Mars "final round" by Baxter in 05:12.62).
Probably if it's that entertaining, we might be decided to allow it to stop after level 1, but this is very uncertain. Since you've already made the run, I think it's best to just submit it and see what happens.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I appreciate the feedback and will go ahead and submit it as is, and will gladly work on a full game play through if nothing comes to fruition out of it. Thanks!
Say a game doesn't have support for any disc swapping, but disc swapping bugs the game out and lets you get otherwise unobtainable items. Would it be allowed to:
1. Use this to set up a NG+ save?
2. Use this in an Any% TAS?
It wants you to beat all the 5 levels and rewards you with a special screen:
If it is correct that this screen is exclusive to beating all the levels, this may be considered a requirement for any% run of this game.
Since these screens are basically all this game gives you as a reward, and it seems to be doing this after every track, I don't think stopping at any particular level other than 5 can be seen as game completion.
Also it seems the game was not designed with any more gameplay in mind, if it forces you to the menu and then even crashes.
As for the code, if you mean the in-game password, such a thing can't serve as either any% or full completion goal, so it has to be really entertaining to be accepted as a side branch (similar to [802] SNES Biker Mice from Mars "final round" by Baxter in 05:12.62).
Probably if it's that entertaining, we might be decided to allow it to stop after level 1, but this is very uncertain. Since you've already made the run, I think it's best to just submit it and see what happens.
