Explain how we’re supposed to look at a faster movie if the link to it is broken?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Why would he keep a movie that isn’t his on his computer for 7 years?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
If the movie file cant be found then yes.
How else are we supposed to know what the improvement was?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
If improvements are possible, it would be nice if they were known how to be performed rather than locked behind a broken link.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
links to a broken flash player, though I think that person might still be around. Could someone possibly get in contact with them to make it public again?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
links to a broken flash player, though I think that person might still be around. Could someone possibly get in contact with them to make it public again?
There's a download link for the .fm2 movie file. I used google translator on that page to see it!
My homepage
--Currently not much motived for TASing as before...--
But I'm still working.
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 231
Location: Lonely City
mtvf1 wrote:
Do you konw why the ECCO's submission been rejected?
I don't know.Why?Why do you always share tas without authorization whose author never want to submit in tasvideos.These are authors' private/secretive work.They have nothing to do with tasvideos.Why don't we accept this tas?Anyone can obsolete it with better work in future,include those mysterious authors.
Do you konw why the ECCO's submission been rejected?
I don't know.Why?Why do you always share tas without authorization whose author never want to submit in tasvideos.These are authors' private/secretive work.They have nothing to do with tasvideos.Why don't we accept this tas?Anyone can obsolete it with better work in future,include those mysterious authors.
I agree. The TAS should just be judged on the merits of whether or not it seems optimized (as it is right now) and whether or not it's entertaining. The potential existence of a faster TAS that was never accepted onto the site shouldn't be a reason to not consider this TAS valid. This makes logical sense, since rejecting this TAS in favor of a non-existent movie would imply that TASvideos should make a page with a time for the game but no video or movie file, which would completely defeat the purpose of TASvideos (after all, videos is half of the site's name). More specifically, no video means no way to verify the time, which means that it could in effect block all future submissions to the category, as they would all fall short of a hypothetical fastest time (sort of like with Todd Rogers and Dragster for the Atari 2600).
I believe this submission is good enough in terms of optimization and entertainment that it should be accepted into the vault, and anyone who believes that it shouldn't be accepted due to a lack of optimization should improve on the TAS and submit their own version to obsolete this one.
From Rules - "Using an in-game password to unlock harder difficulties is perfectly acceptable, as long as no other passwords are used, and the password does nothing more than make the game harder or unlock extra areas which will be played."
"Using in-game codes or passwords at the start of a game is allowed if it uses a built-in hard mode or if it makes cosmetic changes to the game, as long as parts of the game are not skipped.
Using in-game codes or passwords at the start of a game to unlock a special game mode, character, level sets, or otherwise play the game in some unusual way is allowed."
Also I asked in Discord community
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6446
Location: The land down under.
Yeah the password has to be within reason like all those TASes you linked.
I'd argue that this isn't in reason and is better off without the password.
Deltarune currently has a similar issue by using NG+.
(Also for a fun fact: In that list, Bikers Mice from Mars is against the rules for what's achieved completely and requires an update)
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Should we keep asking passive-aggressive questions and never actually post the movie that we consider a known record? It's not known unless it can be found. If it's public and allowed to be examined for improvements, then we can have a link, no one is planning to simply reuse someone else's work without permission. If it's actually private and isn't supposed to be watched, then we shouldn't care about it as a record.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
links to a broken flash player, though I think that person might still be around. Could someone possibly get in contact with them to make it public again?
There's a download link for the .fm2 movie file. I used google translator on that page to see it!
Thanks Challenger, I was able to download the movie file from archive.org. But before posting it here, I want to be sure that the author of that movie doesn't want to keep it private, now that the original site doesn't exist anymore.
Xipo wrote:
mtvf1 wrote:
Do you konw why the ECCO's submission been rejected?
I don't know.Why?Why do you always share tas without authorization whose author never want to submit in tasvideos.These are authors' private/secretive work.They have nothing to do with tasvideos.Why don't we accept this tas?Anyone can obsolete it with better work in future,include those mysterious authors.
The site that mtvf1 mentioned was public when it worked, so we can't really consider it as a private work.
Also, the author is not a mysterious person, as mtvf1 mentioned his name in the past, and I can also read the name inside the fm2 file.
XTREMAL93 wrote:
One of the big timesavers(~340 frames) is password to the 1st level which skips first dialog with Commander Jones. But passwords don't allowed
True, we can't allow password usage for skipping the intro, but even if we exclude that, the old movie is still about 150 frames faster than your current submission. However, that movie was made for FCEUX and doesn't sync in BizHawk, so I can't be sure if those 150 frames can be saved on BizHawk as well.
Edit: I just contacted the author of the old movie. I'll wait some days and see the answer.
The password 397211 allow you paly the second quest of the hard mode. Though I'm not sure how much different between 1st and 2nd quest, I think it don't break the password-rule.
Link to video
The password 397211 allow you paly the second quest of the hard mode. Though I'm not sure how much different between 1st and 2nd quest, I think it don't break the password-rule.
We can allow a password only if it introduces something different or a harder mode. We can't allow it if we're not sure about what it does. Apparently, all it does is just set the Hard difficulty and skip the intro. I also searched on Google, but I found no explanations.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Either way, hardest difficulty is not a requirement.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 586
Location: Azerbaijan, Baku
There are passwords for Easy, Normal and Hard mode SECOND QUEST, so I don't think this passwords make the game harder.
217298 Level 1 (Easy) SECOND QUEST
397211 Level 1 (Hard) SECOND QUEST
671767 Level 1 (Normal) SECOND QUEST
Alright, I feel like going with a thorough consideration of this so-called known record:
The old movie mentioned by mtvf1 seems faster than this submission.
However, it's mostly due to the usage of a password that skips the intro.
The password itself supposedly enables a "2nd quest" mode.
However, no one seems to know what this "2nd quest" mode even is.
Even if we exclude the password usage it's still 150 frames faster.
However, these tricks are affected by emulation differences between FCEUX and NesHawk, which leads in different RNG outcomes.
These tricks could still hypothetically be applied with NesHawk.
However, this would require to redo this submission from scratch, and there are no guarantees that it would ultimately end in a faster movie.
So, in the end, I don't think that the current submission should be rejected in favor of a movie that:
Is not really known, it's found only on a little-known site that died years ago
Uses a less accurate emulator, which means that routes used there may be impossible to replicate on NesHawk
Additionally, it's merely 150 frames faster while this submission features a similar level of overall optimality.
mtvf1 wrote:
Yes, of course. And adelikat admit it.
Indeed, adelikat rejected a submission in the past, in favor of that known record. However, you can't really apply any precedent with 100% certainty, as new situations often feature nuances that make it impossible to always fit into rigid rules, thus an ad-hoc approach is necessary at times. Also, things tend to naturally change over time.
mtvf1 wrote:
So we can ignore this known records?
I've seriously taken in consideration that movie, so I'm not ignoring it. However, I have to note that the record itself can't be applied today with certainty, as I already explained. Also, looking into it deeper would require a huge amount of time and efforts, which it's not worth the hassle, for anyone.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Edit: I just contacted the author of the old movie. I'll wait some days and see the answer.
Three days have passed, and from what I can gather, that author is not very active online, lately. Also, the situation looks clearer to me now, so I don't think that we need to wait further.
XTREMAL93 wrote:
It desyncs in the last version of Fceux and Bizhawk's Heshawk core. With QuickNES it desyncs near the end of first level
It syncs to me with the latest FCEUX version (2.2.3). Not that it matters for this submission, at this point.
The password itself supposedly enables a "2nd quest" mode.
However, no one seems to know what this "2nd quest" mode even is.
The address 0x00A0 contral enemies' action.
0 is level 1 of 1st quest (easy)
1 is level 2 of 1st quest (easy)
9 is level 1 of 2st quest (easy)
36 is level 1 of 1st quest (hard)
45 is level 1 of 2st quest (hard)
The enemy has 3 speed level: 0~17; 18~35; 36~53
This address's different number cause the different rainbow-team enemies in different behaviour.
For example, when you play the XTREMAL93's movie, change 0x00A0 to 45, and the movie will desync. But when you change it to 37, it will sync to the level 3.
When you play the Mzscla's movie, change vaule to 36, it desync, too. Change to 46, and sync to the level 3, too. But change to 47, it will desync at a yellow soldier. Because only this soldier's behaviour has changed in this stage, but others not.
0x00A2~A4 are the location of hostages. These addresses can't change enemies' action.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Even if we exclude the password usage it's still 150 frames faster.
However, these tricks are affected by emulation differences between FCEUX and NesHawk, which leads in different RNG outcomes.
Where is the RNG address in this game? When I copy the input to ECCO's movie, and use cheat to change 0x00A0 to 45. The movie sync perfect until get more lags.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Is not really known, it's found only on a little-known site that died years ago
Uses a less accurate emulator, which means that routes used there may be impossible to replicate on NesHawk
Additionally, it's merely 150 frames faster while this submission features a similar level of overall optimality.
The address 0x00A0 contral enemies' action.
0 is level 1 of 1st quest (easy)
1 is level 2 of 1st quest (easy)
9 is level 1 of 2st quest (easy)
36 is level 1 of 1st quest (hard)
45 is level 1 of 2st quest (hard)
The enemy has 3 speed level: 0~17; 18~35; 36~53
This address's different number cause the different rainbow-team enemies in different behaviour.
For example, when you play the XTREMAL93's movie, change 0x00A0 to 45, and the movie will desync. But when you change it to 37, it will sync to the level 3.
When you play the Mzscla's movie, change vaule to 36, it desync, too. Change to 46, and sync to the level 3, too. But change to 47, it will desync at a yellow soldier. Because only this soldier's behaviour has changed in this stage, but others not.
0x00A2~A4 are the location of hostages. These addresses can't change enemies' action.
Thank you for the contribute. Password 397211 makes the game harder, so we can allow it for future submissions.
mtvf1 wrote:
Where is the RNG address in this game? When I copy the input to ECCO's movie, and use cheat to change 0x00A0 to 45. The movie sync perfect until get more lags.
Ok, I tried again playing the movie in BizHawk, this time I forced address 0x00A2 to value 0, and level 1 synced.
After that there is a new desync, that we can fix by adding 1 frame at the beginning of level 2. However, there is another desync, at frame 5727, because a new enemy spawned.
