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In this game adapted from the famous Where's Waldo books, the player must find the wizard's scroll and either Waldo himself (in the first four levels) or the striped sock (in the last level).

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: BizHawk 2.3.0
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Manipulates luck
I wanted to check the full potential for this game after having run it for the third Super 16 race. This game seems simple enough, but these two aspects made it slightly harder to optimize than I expected:

Minimize score count at the end of levels

I discovered that simply optimizing movement to select the two items is not enough, I also need to select wrongly a certain amount of times (hence the constant beeping) in order to deplete the remaining time before finishing the level. As it turns out, the game takes less time calculating your final score at the end of the level, which saves up to three frames. However, I needed to do those "incorrect" selects on certain particular frames, otherwise it can block the magnifying glass's movement for one frame.

... and of course, RNG

Each level has (I believe) four possible locations of every item, so of course I need to get the best possible pattern everytime. The pattern is randomly seeded depending on which frame I start a level, but it seems that my exact behaviour inside of a level can also affect the pattern I get in the next levels. This restricted the "incorrect" selects even more. The best I could do was: delay 2 frames for the first level, and 1 frame for the second level. I managed to get the correct patterns of the remaining three levels without delaying a single frame.
I don't think it's possible to save the two frames for the first level RNG because nothing seems to affect the seeding other than delaying frames in the menus. It might have been possible to save the one frame I spent for the level two pattern, but I couldn't find a way.
Enjoy the run!

feos: There was no feedback ever since Aran Jaeger has posted, and I should note that his post is important regarding TASing this game. As I replied below, this game's hard mode is not "same thing just longer", its spawns are actually different, and supposedly harder in real time. At least one level can be completed faster than on normal mode.
We don't use to require that a game is played on hard mode, it's more of a guideline, but sometimes not playing the hardest difficulty leads to bad feedback. I tried to get some feedback on that matter, but couldn't. Additionally, the hard mode movie has already been completed, so preferring it for this game in general won't demand any unreasonable extra work from anyone.
So even though this movie is good and I couldn't improve it, I'm rejecting, as explained in the thread, in favor of the hard mode movie that I encourage Aran to submit.


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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #6385: Le_Hulk's SNES The Great Waldo Search in 01:01.30
EZGames69
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The way the character says “where’s waldo” sounds weirdly unsettling to me for some reason.
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EZGames69 wrote:
The way the character says “where’s waldo” sounds weirdly unsettling to me for some reason.
Agreed, lol
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First question that comes to mind is, why normal difficulty? What's the gain from not choosing a harder difficulty, and is it enough to justify the choice?
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c-square wrote:
First question that comes to mind is, why normal difficulty? What's the gain from not choosing a harder difficulty, and is it enough to justify the choice?
There's also Expert difficulty which is basically the same game with different patterns. It would be pretty much the same thing but a few seconds slower.
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LeHulk wrote:
c-square wrote:
First question that comes to mind is, why normal difficulty? What's the gain from not choosing a harder difficulty, and is it enough to justify the choice?
There's also Expert difficulty which is basically the same game with different patterns. It would be pretty much the same thing but a few seconds slower.
Thanks for the quick answer, LeHulk. Is it just different patterns, or are there more things you need to find? If the former, what would then account for the additional seconds?
LeHulk
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c-square wrote:
LeHulk wrote:
c-square wrote:
First question that comes to mind is, why normal difficulty? What's the gain from not choosing a harder difficulty, and is it enough to justify the choice?
There's also Expert difficulty which is basically the same game with different patterns. It would be pretty much the same thing but a few seconds slower.
Thanks for the quick answer, LeHulk. Is it just different patterns, or are there more things you need to find? If the former, what would then account for the additional seconds?
Different patterns only, and the best possible patterns are overall slightly slower.
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Thanks again. Voted no for entertainment, but I think this makes a good addition to the vault. Leaving it up to the judge as to whether the lower difficulty setting is appropriate.
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Well, in response to [quote c-square] Thanks again. Voted no for entertainment, but I think this makes a good addition to the vault. Leaving it up to the judge as to whether the lower difficulty setting is appropriate. [/quote] I wanted to point out that technically, I would have a movie file ready (since around September 2018) with some info for ''highest difficulty'' mode (which would be ''Expert'' mode in this case instead of ''Normal'' mode) which might constitute a potential alternative to this submission in the future, provided that it wouldn't be acceptable to have 2 TASes (1 for Normal mode, and 1 for Expert mode) published (or in the Vault) at the same time: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20440 . And I think in that case it would come down to which mode would be preferred. Other than this, as provided in that linked thread, for Expert mode, there is (at least) 5 different ways in which items can be spread around any given image, whereas according to LeHulk there's 4 options for each image in Normal mode (or there could possibly also be 5 options, but personally, I have not looked into that myself). Furthermore, at least for Expert mode I can confirm that button presses in the short time-frame starting at the first frame at which a new image search can be started and up to the frame before it is started/initiated can influence the RNG that determines which image pattern one gets, too. But again, I haven't tested this for Normal mode. But if such were also applicable in Normal mode, then according to [quote LeHulk] The best I could do was: delay 2 frames for the first level, and 1 frame for the second level. [/quote] this would at most allow to reduce 1 frame (directly, neglecting potential consequential further time-saves or time-loss if e.g. the amount of lag would change later on, but I'd estimate that later additional changes of this kind would be very small if they would even happen to begin with), namely in the first instance where a 2 frames delay occured, if it were possible with inputs on the first frame to manipulate the RNG such that one could start the next image on the next frame, instead of waiting 2 frames and triggering it on the 3rd frame. Also, as far as I know, in Expert mode (at least) it seems to be impossible to influence the RNG for later image searches via inputs done during a previous image search (as long as lag frame appearances and total frame count stays the same), but according to LeHulk, this is possible in Normal mode, if I understand the following correctly: [quote LeHulk] The pattern is randomly seeded depending on which frame I start a level, but it seems that my exact behaviour inside of a level can also affect the pattern I get in the next levels. [/quote]
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
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Aran Jaeger wrote:
Furthermore, at least for Expert mode I can confirm that button presses in the short time-frame starting at the first frame at which a new image search can be started and up to the frame before it is started/initiated can influence the RNG that determines which image pattern one gets, too. But again, I haven't tested this for Normal mode. But if such were also applicable in Normal mode, then according to
LeHulk wrote:
The best I could do was: delay 2 frames for the first level, and 1 frame for the second level.
this would at most allow to reduce 1 frame (directly, neglecting potential consequential further time-saves or time-loss if e.g. the amount of lag would change later on, but I'd estimate that later additional changes of this kind would be very small if they would even happen to begin with), namely in the first instance where a 2 frames delay occured, if it were possible with inputs on the first frame to manipulate the RNG such that one could start the next image on the next frame, instead of waiting 2 frames and triggering it on the 3rd frame.
This saves 1 frame indeed, but I'm unable to get the same optimal pattern for the next level without further delays. So I think this movie is optimal. What bothers me is difficulty. For this game, hardest mode is not "same but longer", the patterns seem to be different, for example your level 2 is way shorter than in this submission, but I was unable to get this pattern on normal difficulty. So I'm uncertain as to which difficulty to prefer. I only know we have to prefer some, because there's not enough difference to have them both published. Any iopinions?
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Since both this run and its "hard mode" counterpart are done and comparable, I think it's a good time to officially prefer one of them, because honestly, I don't anticipate any game-changer (pun unintended) improvements to either of them. And as explained above, I don't see any reasons against hard mode. Which means I plan to reject this one, while asking Aran Jaeger to submit his version instead.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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[quote feos] Since both this run and its "hard mode" counterpart are done and comparable, I think it's a good time to officially prefer one of them, because honestly, I don't anticipate any game-changer (pun unintended) improvements to either of them. And as explained above, I don't see any reasons against hard mode. Which means I plan to reject this one, while asking Aran Jaeger to submit his version instead. [/quote] Alright, in this case I'll try to prepare and finalize a submission for the Expert mode then within this week, and hope that is a sufficient, reasonable/acceptable time-frame (and at least it'd also give Le Hulk and maybe others time to respond or state their opinions on the decision). At least I'd like to check over it one more time before I submit it, and maybe add a few artistic details to make it a more interesting watch without losing time (provided that's possible).
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
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All right, I understand the reason for the rejection. Hopefully Aran Jeager can submit a good run for Expert mode.