Migu
He/Him
Player (202)
Joined: 10/3/2015
Posts: 64
Location: Louisiana
I've been helping Potato with the TAS, mostly researching hat teleports, and I've found a lot about how they work. Bit of a long post. The first thing to understand is the follow path. It's a list of the 256 most recent x,y positions the front bro has been. Actually, on a frame of normal movement both bros advance 8 indices on the follow path. The front bro overwrites 8 entries and goes to the 8th one, and the back bro is just moved 8 entries ahead. They're 64 entries, or 8 frames apart. So the whole list is looped every 32 frames. When Luigi is underground and their speed is halved, they each advance 4 entries per frame. The follow path is "reset" often: this means that the first 64 entries are overwritten with 64 equally spaced positions between the bros, with the front bro at entry 64 and the back bro just behind entry 1 (where entry 0 would be if it existed). Resets happen when entering a new area, switching, and finishing a bros move such as high jump, spin jump, mole, or mini. The magic happens when Mario uses a glitched hammer on Luigi and then high jumps on him and gets off, causing Luigi to move at half speed while Mario retains normal speed. The high jump resets the follow path, so Luigi is at 64 and Mario is at 0. After a frame of walking, Luigi advances 4 to 68 and Mario advances 8 to 8. Each frame the distance between them shrinks by 4, so after 16 frames of walking they both end up at entry 128. The next frame of walking, Mario is moved to entry 136, and this actually happens before Luigi overwrites the 4 entries ahead of him. This can cause a teleport because the position at entry 136 may be far away. In this glitched movement state, Luigi actually has normal speed in the air. So if Luigi jumps, moves for one frame, and then moves for 16 frames after landing, the bros will coincide at entry 136 instead, and then Mario will warp to entry 144. So we can warp to any entry on the follow path (that's a multiple of 8) by moving for different amounts of time in the air. Of course, warping to entries 1-128 is not as interesting because they will definitely be overwritten after high jumping, whereas entries 129-256 can be "stored" from previous movement. This explains where the game tries to send Mario. But in practice Mario rarely goes to the exact position on the follow path. The biggest breakthroughs have been figuring out what causes this. First, the game doesn't want to move Mario more than 0x8000 in each direction. So, for both x and y, it only looks at the lower two bytes of the follow path position, and chooses the upper two bytes so that Mario ends up as close as possible to his current position. In other words, it adds a multiple of 0x10000 to the x and y position on the follow path so that the position Mario is teleported to is within a square of side length 0x10000 centered at Mario. Imagine the lattice of points separated by 0x10000 in both dimensions, starting at the follow path position. One of these points will be inside the square, and this is the point Mario is teleported to. In many cases, the game will also avoid teleporting Mario through walls. If there is wall parallel to the y-axis between Mario and the destination x coordinate (after being adjusted as above), he will be sent to the wall's x coordinate instead. Similarly for the y coordinate. However this doesn't always happen - all of the useful hat teleports are for going through walls, of course. It seems like most walls will block Mario in this way, but there are plenty that don't. I don't understand why walls act differently, but it's easy to test this for any wall. I've noticed that when travelling north and west it tends to be easier to go through walls than when going south and east, but this isn't a universal rule. There's the matter of where Luigi is sent as well. After the teleport, Mario faces his previous position, and Luigi is sent the usual distance in front of Mario (in the direction he's facing). This is important to keep in mind in some cases. Also teleporting resets the follow path, except in some weird cases that I haven't investigated much. If the follow path isn't reset, Mario goes 8 more entries ahead and teleports again on the next frame of walking. This might be pretty powerful if we can figure out when it happens. To cancel the glitched movement state, you need to high jump and actually jump. However there seems to be a weird bug where hat Luigi gets stuck at a lower z-level than the ground after landing (from a high jump or a normal jump) if the ground is above z=0. This is a problem because Luigi can't emerge unless he is exactly at ground level. This means you have to end the glitched movement somewhere with ground at z=0. If there is a way around this, it would be great. Now here are some strategies for setting up a teleport once you have figured out what your destination and position before warping will be, and verified that the teleport doesn't get blocked by a wall. First you need to find somewhere to set a follow path entry to the right value. Remember only the lower 2 bytes matter in the end, so you don't need the exact position. Usually it's best to find a position in the previous room that matches the lower 2 bytes of the destination. If you get the position into entry 136, all you have to do is walk 17 frames for the warp to happen. If the position is in a later entry, you will need to jump before the warp, which costs ~20 frames. Warping to position entry 256 requires only 15 frames of air movement, so any entry besides 136 will take the same extra time to setup. The tricky thing is avoiding overwriting the follow path while quickly moving to the position you need to warp from. The gist is, you need to reset the follow path somehow right before walking far enough to overwrite the key entry. Hammering Luigi and high jumping on him are part of the setup, so these can be used as resets. However during the time between the hammer and the high jump needed to switch action commands, if you walk the whole time, you'll overwrite the whole follow path. Ideally, you can set the follow path position during this time, then enter the loading zone, walk a bit and warp. But this only works if you can do the warp pretty close to the area entrance. If you need to go further before warping, switching just before you overwrite the key entry is a good choice. High jumps can be used if you need to gain height while maintaining the follow path. Spin jumps can be great because you travel at normal speed during them without overwriting the follow path, but they're inconvenient to access, since Mario has glitched commands. The earlier the key entry is on the follow path, the more often you'll need to reset the follow path, which is slow. So I imagine it'll often be optimal to use entries late in the follow path, even though they require the extra time to jump before warping. I might have missed some important details or got them wrong, please let me know if you have any questions, insight, or ideas.
Migu
He/Him
Player (202)
Joined: 10/3/2015
Posts: 64
Location: Louisiana
Editor, Expert player (2364)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3940
Location: Germany
You might want to try using the bug in rooms leading up to Teehee Valley, if possible. I see potential especially in the room at 0:56. Why spinjump at 1:03? Is it to set up the follow path?
Migu
He/Him
Player (202)
Joined: 10/3/2015
Posts: 64
Location: Louisiana
I tried using hat teleports in the rooms before teehee, it's possible but slower, even the room at 0:56, since it takes too long to change commands. If there was a way to keep glitched movement while gaining height then it would probably be faster since you could just continue to teleport the whole way. The spin jump was to set up the follow path but after doing more testing it's faster to just switch a few more times instead.
Migu
He/Him
Player (202)
Joined: 10/3/2015
Posts: 64
Location: Louisiana
A few things I've found to be useful since the last post: If the lower two bytes of the follow path position is exactly 0x8000 away from the lower two bytes of the bros' position, then their position is decreased by 0x8000. This "exact warp" can go through many more walls than non-exact warps. In fact it might actually be possible to go through any wall like this. Though since position is decreased, you can only go up or left. Luigi can use 49 emerge to cancel glitched movement and go to whatever floor he is above or below. To use this effectively, use 45 jump during the teleports, then press R twice after the last jump to get to 49. Unfortunately you can't get all the way to 45 during a normal-length high jump, so this is most useful when doing teleports in consecutive rooms: get 23 jump for the first room, then change to 45 when getting glitched movement again at the start of the second room.
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
Migu wrote:
Link to video
Note: This version is now outdated. The reason why is because Migu forgot to pick up 4-5 coins (I can't remember), so the RNG seeds changed and we had to do a setup for the first hat teleport that is a little different than the one showcased in this video. I may or may not make a video with the updated version.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
TheKDX7
He/Him
Player (118)
Joined: 7/9/2011
Posts: 393
Location: Switzerland
Sorry if this post is disturbing but it is not directly related to TAS but does anyone know if all the badges and clothings that are listed here https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_badges_in_Mario_%26_Luigi:_Superstar_Saga are in the EU and USA version of the game ? I despair of trying to beat Trunkle and get the "Lucky Bros." badge. but without success ... It is however said, if I understood correctly that that there is 61.29% to obtain it if I believe what is said here https://www.mariowiki.com/Trunkle#Mario_&_Luigi:_Superstar_Saga. Is it because I am using the European version of the game? In advance if someone can enlighten me I thank him very much
Editor, Expert player (2364)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3940
Location: Germany
Maybe this will help you. https://themushroomkingdom.net/mlss_j2e.shtml Every item exists in every version. But some are not obtainable on one or the other (JP or US/EU).
TheKDX7
He/Him
Player (118)
Joined: 7/9/2011
Posts: 393
Location: Switzerland
MUGG wrote:
Maybe this will help you. https://themushroomkingdom.net/mlss_j2e.shtml Every item exists in every version. But some are not obtainable on one or the other (JP or US/EU).
Thanks a lot !
Post subject: Luigi Mole clipping (?)
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
Hey Mugg, I hope you're still around here somewhere, because we need you to clarify how Luigi Mole clipping works. This can have a lot of potential for timesave for the TAS, but we're not sure how it exactly works. What are the conditions of it occuring? From your videos I was only able to figure out that you need to hammer Luigi in a spot where the Z is different than 0 and that is close enough to the edge of the ledge.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
Also, we made a bunch more discoveries about hat teleporting. 1. If you manage to teleport into a floor that has a loading zone above it, you can use the "Emerge" action command to get warped up to the floor's height, however, when you come out on the other side of the loading zone, you still keep glitched movement. We used this to our advantage in teehee room 1. 2. When you jump into a loading zone when Luigi is underground before having glitched movement, the follow path doesn't update normally and you can easily preserve the follow path while moving around. And probably some more that I can't remember.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
Potato wrote:
Also, we made a bunch more discoveries about hat teleporting. 1. If you manage to teleport into a floor that has a loading zone above it, you can use the "Emerge" action command to get warped up to the floor's height, however, when you come out on the other side of the loading zone, you still keep glitched movement. We used this to our advantage in teehee room 1. 2. When you jump into a loading zone when Luigi is underground before having glitched movement, the follow path doesn't update normally and you can easily preserve the follow path while moving around. And probably some more that I can't remember.
So far we're in Bowser's Castle with the TAS, in room 1 to be specific, so we have been making steady progress in the meantime. We have a good shot at getting sub 1 hour but it's gonna be tougher than we thought it was.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
Potato wrote:
Also, we made a bunch more discoveries about hat teleporting. 1. If you manage to teleport into a floor that has a loading zone above it, you can use the "Emerge" action command to get warped up to the floor's height, however, when you come out on the other side of the loading zone, you still keep glitched movement. We used this to our advantage in teehee room 1. 2. When you jump into a loading zone when Luigi is underground before having glitched movement, the follow path doesn't update normally and you can easily preserve the follow path while moving around. And probably some more that I can't remember.
This is an interesting application of the first point. By entering the castle loading zone from below using 49 Emerge, we keep hat Luigi and glitched movement through this cutscene. (which is not supposed to happen, if you try to enter the cutscene as regular hat Luigi you get automatically emerged) This messes with part of the cutscene in a pretty hilarious way, as shown here.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Experienced player (691)
Joined: 11/23/2013
Posts: 2239
Location: Guatemala
Potato wrote:
So far we're in Bowser's Castle with the TAS, in room 1 to be specific, so we have been making steady progress in the meantime. We have a good shot at getting sub 1 hour but it's gonna be tougher than we thought it was.
Good luck with finishing the TAS!
Here, my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/dekutony
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
dekutony wrote:
Good luck with finishing the TAS!
Thanks.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Editor, Expert player (2364)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3940
Location: Germany
Potato wrote:
Hey Mugg, I hope you're still around here somewhere, because we need you to clarify how Luigi Mole clipping works. This can have a lot of potential for timesave for the TAS, but we're not sure how it exactly works. What are the conditions of it occuring? From your videos I was only able to figure out that you need to hammer Luigi in a spot where the Z is different than 0 and that is close enough to the edge of the ledge.
The game resource page covers it. http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/GBx/MarioAndLuigiSuperstarSaga.html#LuigiMoleGlitchWallClipping It works on right ledges only. You need to be positioned precisely. One unit too far to the right, and you cannot hammer Luigi. One unit too far to the left, and you will not clip.
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
MUGG wrote:
Potato wrote:
Hey Mugg, I hope you're still around here somewhere, because we need you to clarify how Luigi Mole clipping works. This can have a lot of potential for timesave for the TAS, but we're not sure how it exactly works. What are the conditions of it occuring? From your videos I was only able to figure out that you need to hammer Luigi in a spot where the Z is different than 0 and that is close enough to the edge of the ledge.
The game resource page covers it. http://tasvideos.org/Game/gba-mario--luigi-superstar-saga.html#LuigiMoleGlitchWallClipping It works on right ledges only. You need to be positioned precisely. One unit too far to the right, and you cannot hammer Luigi. One unit too far to the left, and you will not clip.
The Game Resources page doesn't really cover it in great detail, I've read it but couldn't get much information over just watching your 2 videos. So, it only works on ledges that are above Z = 0 right? But does it also work for right ledges that are blocked by a wall in the right direction?
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Post subject: Re: Luigi Mole clipping (?)
Editor, Expert player (2364)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3940
Location: Germany
Potato wrote:
MUGG wrote:
Potato wrote:
Hey Mugg, I hope you're still around here somewhere, because we need you to clarify how Luigi Mole clipping works. This can have a lot of potential for timesave for the TAS, but we're not sure how it exactly works. What are the conditions of it occuring? From your videos I was only able to figure out that you need to hammer Luigi in a spot where the Z is different than 0 and that is close enough to the edge of the ledge.
The game resource page covers it. http://tasvideos.org/Game/gba-mario--luigi-superstar-saga.html#LuigiMoleGlitchWallClipping It works on right ledges only. You need to be positioned precisely. One unit too far to the right, and you cannot hammer Luigi. One unit too far to the left, and you will not clip.
The Game Resources page doesn't really cover it in great detail, I've read it but couldn't get much information over just watching your 2 videos. So, it only works on ledges that are above Z = 0 right?
It works on ledges, regardless of Z. Your first priority is to get in the right position. You can use →↓, ← and ←↓, → inputs. Then your next priority is to approach the wall you want to clip into (top or bottom). Are you trying to use the trick in Bowser's Castle room 1? I may have tried that and failed, but I can't remember.
But does it also work for right ledges that are blocked by a wall in the left direction?
What does that mean?
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
MUGG wrote:
It works on ledges, regardless of Z.
But depends on what you consider a ledge. A ledge is most often a ground that has the Z different than 0. What I would like to know is that if it's possible to perform on normal ground (which based on your explanations, seem to not be the case)
MUGG wrote:
What does that mean?
Say for example, in the gif that you used, there was a wall at the end of that ledge on the right side of the ledge, where you managed to clip. This would mean the trick would not work, right? EDIT: In the reply that you quoted I typed "left direction" when in reality I meant the "right direction". My bad. EDIT 2: I now corrected my mistake there. Hope that doesn't create a lot of confusion. Another thing I'd like to know is if the Follow Path influences clipping into walls or not with this technique. I would assume it doesn't but if it does then it would be way harder to pull it off.
MUGG wrote:
Are you trying to use the trick in Bowser's Castle room 1? I may have tried that and failed, but I can't remember.
I am trying to use it in Stardust Fields room 2 (the room after the room with Pipe 1, which I consider to be room 1) to skip over that fence and reach the loading zone earlier.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
Potato wrote:
So far we're in Bowser's Castle with the TAS, in room 1 to be specific, so we have been making steady progress in the meantime. We have a good shot at getting sub 1 hour but it's gonna be tougher than we thought it was.
UPDATE: I have now finished an "early" version of the TAS and the final time that I got with this was 219577 frames, or 1:01:16.313. What do I mean by "early" version of the TAS? Well, I mean a version that is optimised everywhere else except for Bowser's Castle. I finished it just out of pure curiosity to see what times we should expect from the final time of the final product. I didn't manipulate RNG in the Bowletta and Cackletta fights (because we still have a bunch more teleports to fully optimise that it wouldn't make sense to try and manipulate RNG if it's gonna change anyway) and I got very poor attacks from Cackletta. Manipulating RNG in those 2 fights should save at the very least 25-30 seconds, if not more. So the question then becomes how will we save the remaining 40-50 seconds, to which I don't know the answer yet. We will have to optimise absolutely everything there is left to optimise and pray that it saves just enough time to cut through the 1 hour barrier, but we'll be cutting it way closer than I originally anticipated.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Editor, Expert player (2364)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3940
Location: Germany
In your terms, destination Z has to be lower than your current Z (i.e. a right ledge exists).
Say for example, in the gif that you used, there was a wall right at the end of that ledge on the right side of the ledge, where you managed to clip. This would mean the trick would not work, right?
In that case, a right ledge doesn't exist. So the trick will not work.
I am trying to use it in Stardust Fields room 2 (starting from the room with Pipe 1, which I consider to be room 1) to skip over that fence and reach the loading zone earlier.
These are rooms 1 and 2? I think Mole glitch is useless in that room. You could only do it on the right side of the room to clip into walls at the top, from where Luigi can not zip (he would be ejected back out from there). The old TAS uses barrel to cross the room. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pneQhV_aYc&t=59m12s Maybe teleporting is also worth considering.
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
MUGG wrote:
In that case, a right ledge doesn't exist. So the trick will not work.
Oh right, I completely forgot about that lol. I was a dummy at that part haha.
MUGG wrote:
These are rooms 1 and 2?
Yes, those are the ones that I meant.
MUGG wrote:
The old TAS uses barrel to cross the room. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pneQhV_aYc&t=59m12s Maybe teleporting is also worth considering.
I know the old TAS did barrel clipping at the start, but because we are on the English version and not Japanese we can't really do that. I was scratching my head as to how to skip those fences but I couldn't come up with a better way. About teleporting, there are a few things that are worth mentioning. Because we warp from a "ledge" (again, in my words ledge means anything with Z different than 0) and because we can only teleport horizontally, not upwards or downwards (though there is a way to sort of get around teleporting upwards that I explained in one of my previous posts) this means Luigi will end up in the air at the same Z level as the ground that he teleported from was on. So we'll have to use emerge to get back down, because Luigi obviously can't move in the air, which means we'll cancel glitched movement and when we will warp the next time we will have to do the full setup. We tried this idea already but we found out it was slower by a few seconds. Keep in mind that the setup for changing action commands and getting glitched movement from Luigi takes about 7 seconds on average, not including the time we spend setting the Follow Path, so this means that if a room is faster than 7 seconds, then it's not really worth doing a teleport, unless we can preserve glitched movement through the loading zone. EDIT: 1 more thing to add: Teleporting out of bounds like you barrel clipped in your old TAS doesn't really give the same results. Luigi gets stuck in the wall even after emerging.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Editor, Expert player (2364)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3940
Location: Germany
I know the old TAS did barrel clipping at the start, but because we are on the English version and not Japanese we can't really do that.
You are right. That leaves teleporting which you said is probably slower. If you give me a savestate from pipe 1, I can do some testing. (I'm not sure if follow path is reset on green pipe usage)
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
MUGG wrote:
(I'm not sure if follow path is reset on green pipe usage)
It doesn't affect the Follow Path, however it does cancel Luigi's glitched movement if he had it.
MUGG wrote:
You are right. That leaves teleporting which you said is probably slower. If you give me a savestate from pipe 1, I can do some testing.
I can give you one, sure. Here it is.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Active player (275)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 62
Location: Mars
I was thinking of using Luigi Mole clipping glitch in this room after defeating Bowletta to skip the cutscene with Prince Peasly. Do you think this idea would work mugg?
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)