Post subject: TASes that are the theoretical fastest time already?
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4043
So a discussion over on /r/speedrun got me thinking: https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/l7n9qs/has_there_ever_been_a_case_where_a_human_has/ What TASes on the site are the least likely to be made faster, ever? Either because there's an exhaustive proof that it can't be any faster, or because there doesn't seem likely for any possible improvement to even be available. Dragster and Zool SMS are two obviously maxed out games due to being short and bot analyzed, but what else do we have strong beliefs about? For example, how likely do you think it is that [1715] NES Super Mario Bros. "warps" by HappyLee in 04:57.31 will ever be improved? And what's the longest run you think will never be beaten?
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Joined: 8/7/2011
Posts: 166
I think if you're looking for a long run that can't be beaten, you'll most likely find it in the vault. I think it would more likely be something simple (and thus trivial to optimize) but also long and boring rather than a game that has been heavily optimized over many iterations. Edit: GB Boxxle is the longest video on the site that isn't a complex jRPG, and the notes mention there's no known improvements and is fairly confident there's no possible ones.
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4043
https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/lco8qw/world_record_super_mario_bros_any_speedrun_in/ In related exciting news, SMB RTA is now less than a second off of the SMB RTA rules (no L+R) TAS, and the human sum of best is only 0.07 seconds slower (I think because perfect 8-4 is so extremely hard). Maybe we'll see a human maxed out SMB in our lifetime.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Player (190)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 61
Location: Mars
Patashu wrote:
What TASes on the site are the least likely to be made faster, ever? Either because there's an exhaustive proof that it can't be any faster, or because there doesn't seem likely for any possible improvement to even be available.
In my opinion, the 1 Key TAS of Super Mario 64 is very unlikely that it will be improved any further, same goes for [4032] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "game end glitch" by Masterjun & ais523 in 00:00.78 for its incredibly short length. As for the longest run that will probably never been beaten, it's probably going to be either a run of a game that has barely any traction on the internet at all, because for more wide spread games, runs will almost always be beatable, or it's going to be a really long run of a popular game, like [4071] DS Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story by vince1919 in 4:49:49.35.
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Player (241)
Joined: 9/26/2020
Posts: 36
The SM64 1 Key TAS had been improved by multiple times since that TAS was published, it's just that nobody had bothered to submit it to TASVideos yet. I believe the 0.78 second SMB3 TAS has known improvements. In general, the simpler the game mechanics are, the less likely its TAS will be improved, which is why the SMB warps TAS had stood since 2011.
Masterjun
He/Him
Site Developer, Skilled player (1988)
Joined: 10/12/2010
Posts: 1185
Location: Germany
DaSmileKat wrote:
I believe the 0.78 second SMB3 TAS has known improvements.
Wrong.
Potato wrote:
[4032] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "game end glitch" by Masterjun & ais523 in 00:00.78 for its incredibly short length
Note, while the movie only consists of 47 video frames, it actually has 2201 input frames, so its complexity can be compared to a 36 second TAS. Of course not all of the inputs are equally important but it's something to keep in mind.
Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)
TiKevin83
He/Him
Ambassador, Moderator, Site Developer, Player (155)
Joined: 3/17/2018
Posts: 358
Location: Holland, MI
Atari2600 Dragster's code was evaluated mathematically and the current TAS effectively proven to be unimprovable http://tasvideos.org/5876S.html
Potato
He/Him
Editor, Player (190)
Joined: 3/7/2020
Posts: 61
Location: Mars
TiKevin83 wrote:
Atari2600 Dragster's code was evaluated mathematically and the current TAS effectively proven to be unimprovable http://tasvideos.org/5876S.html
He says that in his message that Dragster is already maxed out.
Patashu wrote:
Dragster and Zool SMS are two obviously maxed out games due to being short and bot analyzed
MLSS Any% TAS out! (link)MLSS All Bosses TAS out! (link)MLSS Glitchless TAS out! (link)
Editor, Reviewer, Skilled player (1358)
Joined: 9/12/2016
Posts: 1646
Location: Italy
Defining how difficult a TAS is to improve is subjective and unpredictable, as finding improvements is not just a matter of skill, but also luck. But it looks fun to make a list! Dragster definitely falls to place #1. Most other hard-to-improve TASes have already been mentioned, but I'd like to add some honorable mentions: [717] NES Monopoly "4 CPUs" by FractalFusion in 01:07.67 [4329] GB Pokémon: Red Version "save glitch" by MrWint, Alyosha & CasualPokePlayer in 01:15.62 I'll add more later if I stumble into more of them...
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Editor, Skilled player (1344)
Joined: 12/28/2013
Posts: 396
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Although not as safely as SMB1, I think it's very likely that [3989] SNES Super Mario World "game end glitch" by Doomsday31415, BrunoVisnadi & Masterjun in 00:41.68 cannot be pushed further. However, I also used to believe it for the previous 2 publications of this category (and this hypothesis was actually my motivation to try to improve it in first place), so I see some decent chances someone eventually proves me wrong
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVoUfT49xN9TU-gDMHv57sw Projects: SMW 96 exit. SDW any%, with Amaraticando. SMA2 SMW small only Kaizo Mario World 3
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4043
Another interesting case of an RTA speedrun that might be maxed: Link to video
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
MESHUGGAH
Other
Skilled player (1918)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1353
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Replying to Patashu's This is the only level flash game by jmtb02: - the game has a barrier that can only be passed after 2 minutes at stage 25 - the remaining levels consists of holding the right button and jumping sometimes Assuming that the gameplay has been maxed (no other tricks to employ, positions were optimized to reach the level ends as fast as possible), the only possible way to break the record would be using a different platform... The author of the game had a contest of his own game around 2009, which consisted of completing the game with the minimum number of actions. The game had a simple way of recording your actions which could be copy pasted and sent so a judge can verify that it's a legitimate way of beating a level. Someone on the contest forum was able to finish a level 1 action fewer, which seemed impossible when replayed. Later they figured out that the majority of people were using Windows while this particular user was using Linux. The floating point error difference between the two platforms led to desync a legitimate strategy for Linux on a Windows machine. Notes: - Couldn't find any information about the contest - Unsure about which particular game was, but the gameplay was very similar to Warpshot. - Warpshot game link: http://www.jmtb02.com/warpshot - Warpshot in-game video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWQZbzTYb6c
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
MESHUGGAH
Other
Skilled player (1918)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1353
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Replying to the mentioned TASes in this thread: [1715] NES Super Mario Bros. "warps" by HappyLee in 04:57.31 - if MrWint's smb-opt agrees, the TAS can not be improved under the current rules and emulators. - MrWint's smb-opt link: https://github.com/MrWint/smb-opt - elaboration: #5862: MrWint's NES Super Mario Bros. "warpless" in 18:37.46 [4032] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "game end glitch" by Masterjun & ais523 in 00:00.78 - the TAS probably can not be improved under the current rules and emulators. edit2: Masterjun pointed out that I was mixing up his TAS with something entirely else, and we don't have proof about does this theoretically fastest time achievable. 1 Key TAS for N64 SM64 - I doubt that it's perfect. The video already states that this is a console version of the TAS which is slower than the originally submitted one. The SM64 community knowledge also grown since than. It might be very fast, but definitely cannot be claimed as theoretical fastest time. [717] NES Monopoly "4 CPUs" by FractalFusion in 01:07.67 - the TAS made in 2006. I don't have knowledge of this particular game so I don't know about is it the theoretical fastest time. [4329] GB Pokémon: Red Version "save glitch" by MrWint, Alyosha & CasualPokePlayer in 01:15.62 - have no knowledge about this [3989] SNES Super Mario World "game end glitch" by Doomsday31415, BrunoVisnadi & Masterjun in 00:41.68 - the TAS probably can not be improved under the current rules and emulators. [3662] A2600 Dragster by MrWint & Omnigamer in 00:08.39 - the TAS can not be improved under the current rules and emulators. Another suggestion would be [3475] A2600 Super 3D Portals 6 by Arcree2, TASeditor & MESHUGGAH in 00:02.12 - the TAS can not be improved under the current rules and emulators. edit: bolded the claimably theoretical fastest times
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...