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Posted: 12/1/2005 9:06 AM
Post subject: Battle Chess
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Dacicus
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050
Someone mentioned this game in the "Top games that haven't been done" thread, and I decided to take a look at it. There's not much to say about the game itself, since chess has well-defined rules. As far as a TAS is concerned, here are some factors that need to be taken into consideration: Difficulty: While there's a rule that the games should be played at the hardest difficulty, I believe that following it for this specific game would result in probably the most boring movie of it. The computer can take several minutes to make one move on the highest difficulty. From having it play against itself for a while, probably around an hour, I think that the amount of time it takes to decide upon a move gets longer as the situation gets more complicated. I'm not sure about that, though. My opinion is that a TAS of this game should attempt to defeat the computer in as few moves as possible at a difficulty for which a watcher would not need to wait an unbearable amount of time for the computer to make its moves. Animations: The player has the choice to play on a 2-D or a 3-D board. The 2-D board has a standard representation of the chess pieces, while the 3-D board has figures that actually walk to each spot and fight each other during captures. The animation of each fight depends on what kind of pieces are interacting. This, of course, takes more time. However, I think it will add entertainment value to the game, especially for watchers who aren't avid chess players. Since a TAS would be going for the fewest number of moves to checkmate, the fights would hopefully not get boring, since there probably wouldn't be many of them in the first place and not many between the same pieces. With these ideas in mind, I recorded a movie against the lowest level of the computer, playing on the 3-D board. I defeated it in 11 moves, but I'm sure that can be improved. Unfortunately, my file host is adding servers or something, so I can't upload any files atm. I'll just write out the moves for now:
  1. e3 e5
  2. Qh5 Nc6
  3. Bc4 d5
  4. Bb5 Bd6
  5. Nh3 Ng8-e7
  6. Ng5 g6
  7. Qh6 a6
  8. Qg7 Rg8
  9. Qf7x+ Kd7
  10. Nh7x b5x
  11. Nf6++
That movie takes 5:38, but my button presses weren't frame optimized and I didn't stop recording as soon as I could have.
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
Posted: 12/1/2005 12:30 PM
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DrJones
Joined: 4/3/2005
Posts: 575
Location: Spain
Sorry for being ignorant. Can't you force the computer to make a move on this platform? This option was available in some Battle Chess games I own (for Amiga and PC).
No.
Posted: 12/1/2005 4:43 PM
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hopper
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 804
Location: Canada
I considered making a Chessmaster TAS, but I don't see the point. To win as quickly as possible you have to find a line that the computer will play badly and get checkmated. It's not a true representation of the abilities of the computer. As a chess player, I would rather see someone win a really good game of chess from a complicated position than see someone exploit some gap in the computer's programming and beat it without trying. As for people who don't play chess, are they really going to watch a chess game for even 5 minutes to see the mate in 11? Will they appreciate what they've just seen enough to consider it entertaining and vote Yes? I just don't see the point.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Posted: 12/1/2005 4:53 PM
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adelikat
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i pretty much agree with hopper, beating up on a computers programming holes really isnt that entertaining. for someone who plays a lot of chess (like me) an 11 move or fewer game isnt interesting at all. a better game would be somewhere like 30-40 moves with amazing combinations and unexpected suprises which for a tas would make it very long. how about a 2 player TAS? maybe input a classic chess match. chessmasters would appreciate the game itself, others would be amazed at the pieces moving around the board lighting fast? i dunno, that seems the most promising also with 3d, the fewest moves isnt necessarily the fastest in real time, since pieces like the knight move very slow. you would also have to consider captures. a proper strategy might be to find a way to suprise the computer and minimize the number of captures and use only the fastest pieces. i would find it interesting to see somone balance these considerations with the actual strategy of chess
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Posted: 12/1/2005 5:23 PM
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Dacicus
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050
DrJones wrote:
Can't you force the computer to make a move on this platform?
I'm pretty sure you can't. There's no option for it on any of the menus.
hopper wrote:
To win as quickly as possible you have to find a line that the computer will play badly and get checkmated.
Isn't that what you're trying to do in any game of chess, whether against a computer or against another player? I understand what you're saying about it not being the true abilities of the computer, though.
adelikat wrote:
how about a 2 player TAS? maybe input a classic chess match.
That's a good idea. Which classic match should it be, though?
adelikate wrote:
also with 3d, the fewest moves isnt necessarily the fastest in real time, since pieces like the knight move very slow. you would also have to consider captures.
True.
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
Posted: 12/1/2005 5:26 PM
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todd
Joined: 4/4/2004
Posts: 66
adelikat wrote:
how about a 2 player TAS? maybe input a classic chess match. chessmasters would appreciate the game itself, others would be amazed at the pieces moving around the board lighting fast? i dunno, that seems the most promising
I explored this idea about 6 or 7 years ago on the chess servers. I wrote a program that connected to the servers and sent arbitrary input. I had it set up board positions and play moves at lightning speed. It would play through a whole game in a few seconds. I also used it to create some "chess art". I think the chess servers are a better medium for this sort of TAS than Chessmaster/Battle Chess for two reasons: 1) Chess software is quite slow compared to chess servers (you can play out a whole game in as little as 1-2 seconds on a chess server, but each move takes around a second in the video games) 2) Chess software is generally limited to playing out games and some limited board setup features. On chess servers, there are more features to exploit, like a more robust board setup feature, the ability to add commentary, the ability to move back and forth an arbitrary number of moves, the ability to highlight pieces/squares for users of some interfaces, and probably some other things I'm forgetting right now.
Posted: 12/1/2005 5:34 PM
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adelikat
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1) chess art? that sounds interesting where can i find that? 2) battle chess doesnt have the 3 repitition-draw rule so you can move back and forth indenfinately 3) inputing a fast game is better suited for another program, battle chess is slow, a TAS then should exploit the features that are unique to battle chess game and not ones that are better displayed in other programs. the unique feature is the 3d battle mode. so I think there is only one choice: plays cpu at novice uses 3d mode aims for fasest TIME to the checkmating move these goals also allow the possibility to play as black if it means getting a faster checkmate
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 12/1/2005 5:46 PM
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todd
Joined: 4/4/2004
Posts: 66
adelikat wrote:
1) chess art? that sounds interesting where can i find that?
You won't find it. It's a bit difficult to explain, but let me give you an example of some "art". Hopefully you are familiar with ICS-style chess servers. (like FICS, ICC, chess.net, etc.) My program logs in to the chess server and goes in to examine mode. First, it clears the board. Then, it puts a white knight on a8, a black knight on b8, a white knight on c8, and so on, until the whole board is filled with 64 knights of alternating colors. Then, it removes the a8 knight, removes the b8 knight, and so on, until the board is empty again. It does all of this at lightning speed, so what the viewer sees is a fast-moving wave of alternating color coming from the top of the board down to the bottom. It looks a lot like water waves coming at you on a beach. A few people thought this "knight wave" had something of a hypnotic effect. They stared at it for 10+ minutes straight. And now you can see that the reason you won't find this art is that it ceases to exist once the program logs out. Hopefully my description was clear enough. Anyway, there are a lot of creative things you can do using chess server software.
Posted: 12/1/2005 5:48 PM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
I think it would be real fun to see this game made. I played it alot as a kid. Dacicus - Feel free to mail me your WIP or something. I can also host the movie for you on my webserver.
Posted: 12/1/2005 7:04 PM
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Arc
Editor, Experienced player (814)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
NES TAS of 2021
1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nh6 4. d4 exd4 5. Bxh6 gxh6 6. Qxf7#
Posted: 12/1/2005 7:13 PM
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adelikat
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lol
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 12/1/2005 8:19 PM
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Dacicus
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050
Nice, Arc! I remember that I once beat a computer chess game in 6 moves on the lowest level. I don't think those were the moves, though. Hm, this is weird. I was messing around with the take back feature and I somehow got it to give me an extra move. That allowed me to do a 4-move checkmate, I think. It seems that the amount of moves that you can take back are limited or something.
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:02 PM
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hopper
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 804
Location: Canada
Heck, at the lowest level most console chess programs are retarded. I think I may have even played the Scholar's Mate once. That may be the one you're thinking of, Dacicus. We've established that the computer can be beaten at the hardest difficulty level in very few moves if you can find the right ones to get the computer to play uncharacteristically badly, so there's your basis for a "fastest completion" run. I'm thinking it would be nice, probably in non-battle chess in order to speed things up, to demonstrate something that chess players can really appreciate. Do something crazy, like perform the knight's tour in the endgame without checkmating or stalemating the computer. That would take a long time, but it's an example of something crazy that you would never see in real life. Do something astonishing, like sacrifice a ton of material and pull off a superb checkmate. Play a horrible opening and still win a few moves later. March your king all over the board while slowly building a mating attack on any move when you're not in check! Even better, build a mating attack on moves when you ARE in check by interposing attacking pieces. Finally, if you're going to simply replay a classic game, pick a game that shows a lot of sacrifices, like the "Game of the Century" between Fischer and Byrne: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. d4 O-O 5. Bf4 d5 6. Qb3 dxc4 7. Qxc4 c6 8. e4 Nbd7 9. Rd1 Nb6 10. Qc5 Bg4 11. Bg5 Na4 12. Qa3 Nxc3 13. bxc3 Nxe4 14. Bxe7 Qb6 15. Bc4 Nxc3 16. Bc5 Rfe8+ 17. Kf1 Be6 18. Bxb6 Bxc4+ 19. Kg1 Ne2+ 20. Kf1 Nxd4+ 21. Kg1 Ne2+ 22. Kf1 Nc3+ 23. Kg1 axb6 24. Qb4 Ra4 25. Qxb6 Nxd1 26. h3 Rxa2 27. Kh2 Nxf2 28. Re1 Rxe1 29. Qd8+ Bf8 30. Nxe1 Bd5 31. Nf3 Ne4 32. Qb8 b5 33. h4 h5 34. Ne5 Kg7 35. Kg1 Bc5+ 36. Kf1 Ng3+ 37. Ke1 Bb4+ 38. Kd1 Bb3+ 39. Kc1 Ne2+ 40. Kb1 Nc3+ 41. Kc1 Rc2# 0-1 Or better yet, the game many consider the greatest of all time, "Kasparov's Immortal Game" vs. Topalov at Corus 1999. 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 c6 6. f3 b5 7. Nge2 Nbd7 8. Bh6 Bxh6 9. Qxh6 Bb7 10. a3 e5 11. O-O-O Qe7 12. Kb1 a6 13. Nc1 O-O-O 14. Nb3 exd4 15. Rxd4 c5 16. Rd1 Nb6 17. g3 Kb8 18. Na5 Ba8 19. Bh3 d5 20. Qf4+ Ka7 21. Rhe1 d4 22. Nd5 Nbxd5 23. exd5 Qd6 24. Rxd4 cxd4 25. Re7+ Kb6 26. Qxd4+ Kxa5 27. b4+ Ka4 28. Qc3 Qxd5 29. Ra7 Bb7 30. Rxb7 Qc4 31. Qxf6 Kxa3 32. Qxa6+ Kxb4 33. c3+ Kxc3 34. Qa1+ Kd2 35. Qb2+ Kd1 36. Bf1 Rd2 37. Rd7 Rxd7 38. Bxc4 bxc4 39. Qxh8 Rd3 40. Qa8 c3 41. Qa4+ Ke1 42. f4 f5 43. Kc1 Rd2 44. Qa7 1-0
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:19 PM
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Dacicus
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050
hopper wrote:
We've established that the computer can be beaten at the hardest difficulty level in very few moves if you can find the right ones to get the computer to play uncharacteristically badly, so there's your basis for a "fastest completion" run.
We haven't figured out what those moves are, though.
hopper wrote:
I'm thinking it would be nice, probably in non-battle chess in order to speed things up, to demonstrate something that chess players can really appreciate.
Maybe that should be attempted on a game in which the moves take shorter to execute. Even the 2-D mode requires a few seconds to make a move, since the pieces do some blinking animation. I don't want to argue over this, since it's just a game with a lot of possible variations. I agree with adelikat that the game should just show off what's special about this version, as compared with other chess games on the NES. That thing I found with the take-back can be used to give one side one or possibly more extra moves in a row. You need to go about 3 or so moves beyond the place where you can take things back, though, so it probably wouldn't be faster on Novice than the game Arc posted. Maybe it could be used to allow a four-move checkmate/scholar's mate on the highest difficulty, though.
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:27 PM
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hopper
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 804
Location: Canada
That qualifies as abusing a glitch, which is one of the things people look for in a TAS.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:35 PM
(Edited: 12/1/2005 9:51 PM)
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Dacicus
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050
lol, it worked! Okay, now to figure out how soon I can start taking back moves and still get it to work. It will probably take a while, but I'll post the moves as soon as I can. EDIT: Okay, I think this should work:
  1. e4 e5
  2. Qh5 Nc6
  3. Bc4 g6
  4. c3 h5x
  5. Bg5 Qg5x
  6. d4
  7. Take back 3 times while the computer's thinking
  8. Allow the computer to do g6 as in #3 previously, then take it back
  9. Qf7++
EDIT 2: I'm pretty sure that you can do whatever moves you want after you get the queen and bishop into position. So, feel free to have fun for moves 4 to 6, since you'll take them back anyway. Just make sure to take back while the computer's thinking on move #6. I'll make a movie of it, not optimized or anything, just to make sure it works. My file host still seems to be down, though.
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:44 PM
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daniayaw
Former player
Joined: 7/29/2005
Posts: 459
Location: Brazil
post a wip^^
<small>My big signature was cleared by admin; i should read <a href="http://tasvideos.org/ForumRules.html">forum rules</a>. But... who does?</small>
Posted: 12/1/2005 10:33 PM
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hopper
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 804
Location: Canada
Of all the games that I thought someone would abuse a glitch to end the game faster, this was not one of them.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Posted: 12/1/2005 10:35 PM
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Dacicus
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050
lol. Well, don't be too happy yet. The movie, although unoptimized, takes 30:35. We'll definitely have to play around with what moves after the first three shorten the computer's thinking time the most. I'm working on making save states right before the computer moves, so that anyone who wants to watch it won't have to wait the whole time if they don't want to.
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
Posted: 12/1/2005 11:03 PM
(Edited: 8/16/2021 9:36 AM)
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Deviance
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Posts: 706
Posted: 12/1/2005 11:07 PM
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daniayaw
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Joined: 7/29/2005
Posts: 459
Location: Brazil
upload the wip to dehacked's filestore^^
<small>My big signature was cleared by admin; i should read <a href="http://tasvideos.org/ForumRules.html">forum rules</a>. But... who does?</small>
Posted: 12/1/2005 11:41 PM
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Dacicus
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050
Okay, here's the FCM file. I made a zip file that includes the savestates, but my host is still not working. Here are the frames around which the computer makes its moves, if you want to speed up to them, or just go away from the computer for a few minutes: 1. 4500 2. 27000 3. 49000 4. 77000 5. 89000 (wait after this one to see the take backs, if you want) 6. 109000 (this is basically a repetition of #3)
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
Posted: 12/2/2005 1:27 AM
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adelikat
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i love that you found a way to do that glitch, as for speeding up the 3 irrlelvant moves, makes sure to not do moves that result in battle sequences since that would take the longest, also try not to move a pieces that requires other pieces to move out of the way (like the knight) if you want to speed up the cpu thinking then try to make moves that have an obvious answer,like take a protected pawn with your queen, or better yet, check the king with your queen so that he must take it, the battle animation should be quicker than the computer thinking at that level i agree with devience that immortal games will be over the head of any novice, and pointless for an expert. I like hoppers idea of it being a totally bizarre game that you would never actually see also there is some randomness to the novice level, if you take back a move it will sometimes makes a completely different move. you might be able to exploit that to get it to blunder
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 12/2/2005 2:36 AM
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Dacicus
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050
Thanks for the advice. I'll try to optimize this glitched version, unless someone else wants to do that. Since I should be working on Lemmings anyway, I'll leave the bizarre game idea for someone else, at least for now. ;)
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
Posted: 12/2/2005 6:14 AM
(Edited: 8/16/2021 9:36 AM)
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
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