Along with such categories like 'aims for fastest time', 'takes no damage', etc. is there a category (or can there be?) named something like... 'classic'? What I mean by classic is a run of a game without using different emulators' features to your advantage. While I can't see that such a classic speedrun would be fun to watch in many cases, there are certainly a few games worthy of it... imo. E.g. those rare fps games on gba\n64 platforms.
Watching a fps done frame by frame cannot be interesting, imho, and I think many people would agree with me. Fps games always feel, both to player and watcher, like they are meant to show off skill. Probably there are other game types classic speedrunning would be fitting for, but right now none comes to mind.
So is there a possibility that such a category might be added to this site? I'd like to speedrun a fps in that way!
Tool-assisted only means that emulators are used. And at SDA they do not use these tools. I don't see how 'classic' TAS speedruns can ever end up at SDA site.
it's a little unethical to speedrun that way. the purpose of sda is for real life console, and the purpose for tas is for emulation, but the only purpose for speed running on an emulator would be just for those rare games you speak of. my suggestion: buy an old console for cheap and a capture card and start speedrunning the old fashion way. it's fun.
btw, since the metroid2002 topic got locked (eh, locking is so nazi), i'd say "computer aided optimization" (cao) would be much more accurate than "tool-assisted speedrun."
Tool-assisted means that you modify your run using tools. Simply using an emulator doesn't do this. All the emulator really does is allow us to use tools in the first place.
However, there are sites that publish what you're talking about. I know I saw some people link to them over at SDA, but I don't know them offhand. They include emulator runs that did not use tools. If I find the links I'll try to remember to let you know. :)
Now, on the matter of FPS games not being interesting and entertaining as a TAS, personally I have to disagree. I've seen Doom runs and I'm pretty sure some of them are not normal speedrunning and were probably tool-assisted. However, they are very entertaining, in my opinion.
Emulators are perfect! You can have more than TV's 50 HZ and save your eyes, you can use filters to make a game look much better. You can play in full screen or find a size for the game window that you truly like. So why not use an emulator even though you can use a console?
Anyway, they other members of my family wouldn't thank me for dragging their TV to my room. And if they would, my eyes still hurt too much from it. That's the reason I don't normally watch it.
Hmm, I imagine there might be a game too hard to record classic way, and it has to be a TAS (or cao, as nico is suggesting=}). For instance, Doom64 is pretty awful at the hardest difficulty. Still, if I remember correctly, there even was a run of Doom64 at hardest difficulty done. So, if you knew some fps game as _extremely hard_ and had to choose to watch either a TAS or 'classic TAS', isn't it still more impressive as classic? Very likely you would watch a TAS of it, but I doubt you would't watch a classic version, too.
As for the speedrun section at this forum, do those runs get posted at this site? If so, there really is such a category I'm talking about already=}. But if they're only linked in the forum's section, it sort of takes all challenge out of recording them. Probably such a category could be added? (If even for fps games only)
Why would there be a category for "non-assisted" on a site about tools-assisted movies?
There already exist sites which do not use tools. We don't want to confuse the issue by mixing them here. Please use SDA and support them.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
However, there are sites that publish what you're talking about. I know I saw some people link to them over at SDA, but I don't know them offhand. They include emulator runs that did not use tools.
However, there are sites that publish what you're talking about. I know I saw some people link to them over at SDA, but I don't know them offhand. They include emulator runs that did not use tools.
Well, maybe not that particularly (I'm having trouble telling what exactly they have.) I know I downloaded a Mega Man Zero 2 Emulator run from some place. While McBain's site is *possibly* the location, I seem to recall it being another site with emulator speed runs and this one simply being on there. Or perhaps he just changed his site layout?
Found a post by him and grabbed this from his sig:
http://www.megazpeed.com/
But still, I think I've seen a place with more than that. Sorry about only being able to be vague. :\
btw, since the metroid2002 topic got locked (eh, locking is so nazi), i'd say "computer aided optimization" (cao) would be much more accurate than "tool-assisted speedrun."
Not bad... But I was thinking that since people want to emphasize that an emulator movie doesn't have to be "tool-assisted", a "tool-assisted run" could be known as a "time-edited emulator run", while a "non-tool-assisted run" (meaning no pausing, slowing down, or rerecording) done on an emulator could be known as a "non-stop emulator run". Something like that. (You could also argue that "tool assistance" doesn't have to "optimize" a run in the traditional sense.)
xyzzy wrote:
As for the speedrun section at this forum, do those runs get posted at this site?
Just the MegaRockMan one, I think.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Well, maybe not that particularly (I'm having trouble telling what exactly they have.)
I edited my link to it (above) to make it easier to see what sort of thing they have - the site is hard to navigate. They don't have all that much, and no MMZ runs, but there's considerably more than at the megazpeed site (I don't know about the quality, though... I much prefer SDA).
Joined: 11/22/2004
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Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
I don't think that this is a great idea, but I've personally felt that it should be possible to also make runs that purposely ignore certain glitches (such as the zipping glitches in the Mega Man games) because I think that they can be very interesting, too. I loved Morimoto's Mega Man 2 which didn't use the zipping glitches, for example, and think that it's too bad there's no AVI of it being hosted anymore.
Well, if I record a run of any game in a classic way, it won't get accepted?
Or will it. I actually remembered one of the favourite games of my childhood, it's 2D one, and tried to record a run of it. After I compared time it took me complete levels in both popular and classic ways, I saw that it was possible for time to be the same. That can hardly be said about 99,9% of games, of course.
Thus, the question I asked at the begging of this post remains posed.
well but.. the problem is.. emulator time attack, you cant prove it was played on 100% speed..also, i think there is a way to edit your rerecording count.. which make this hard to judge
<small>My big signature was cleared by admin; i should read <a href="http://tasvideos.org/ForumRules.html">forum rules</a>. But... who does?</small>
well but.. the problem is.. emulator time attack, you cant prove it was played on 100% speed..also, i think there is a way to edit your rerecording count.. which make this hard to judge
Yupp, that's the problem with this, you can't just count on the player's honesty.
For fun and competitions in little circles it's nice, but for real competition it fails due to lack of real evidence. I think the speedrun competitions forum here is quite the right thing.
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Out of curiosity, wouldn't it be possibly to plug your computer to the TV via S-video or something, replay a movie file in a emulator in fullscreen while recording what's shown on the TV to VHS, and claim that what's on the VHS was recorded from console? Or is it a way of seeing that what you have on VHS really is from console and not from computer?
If you can record runs from emulator to VHS, wouldn't it be a simple thing to submit such a VHS to Speeddemosarchive and claim it's a legit console speedrun? I don't know if what I said is even possible, but I'm just wondering :)
Also, someone could make a "emulator for 'legit' time attacks" which dont allow speed changing while playing, no emulator pause nor save states.. and if the fps gets too lower, it halts the replay saving.. also, un-hexeditable..
maybe its too hard to make this, but it would be cool^^
<small>My big signature was cleared by admin; i should read <a href="http://tasvideos.org/ForumRules.html">forum rules</a>. But... who does?</small>
Un-hexeditable emulator would be a problem, though it could at least attempt to store data encrypted.
As for cheating with movies with help of TV, I hope it isn't possible. Too ugly.
Player's honesty... true, it can't be checked.
So wouldn't it even be permitted if a run has only 11 saves (for the end of each level)? Even if that can't be checked, any of runs on this site could have a fake rerecord count, too.
There really are games that can be recorded classically, at least 2D ones - e. g. Prince of Persia, Alien 3, Little Mermaid - relatively short levels, relatively small damage you can take.
Out of curiosity, wouldn't it be possibly to plug your computer to the TV via S-video or something, replay a movie file in a emulator in fullscreen while recording what's shown on the TV to VHS, and claim that what's on the VHS was recorded from console? Or is it a way of seeing that what you have on VHS really is from console and not from computer?
If you can record runs from emulator to VHS, wouldn't it be a simple thing to submit such a VHS to Speeddemosarchive and claim it's a legit console speedrun? I don't know if what I said is even possible, but I'm just wondering :)
very possible. Infact, probly too easy if you knew how. Of course, you'd have to be clever enought to not use frame advance on sections faster then humanly possible, like menus, cause it would be obvious to the SDA fans.
ha, that's a good idea, but i think that's why twin galaxies require some of the video to be on the player's hands and pad. have to film yourself turning on the console and all. i guess it'd be possible, but it doesn't really make a difference if it's possible or not. it's not like that nullifies any significance in the time attack world.
ha, that's a good idea, but i think that's why twin galaxies require some of the video to be on the player's hands and pad. have to film yourself turning on the console and all. i guess it'd be possible, but it doesn't really make a difference if it's possible or not. it's not like that nullifies any significance in the time attack world.
I don't think they do require this, not everyone has a camcorder. I think you just need a plain VHS recording.
They've had some discussions over this on TwinGalaxies, and the judges said they have their bunch of tricks to test the legitimaty of the videos, if it was recorded on the real thing or an emulator.
