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solarplex wrote:
Aqfaq wrote:
Thank you. Nice to have a full run of the game.
Your run is quite slow, though. Also, the difficulty setting is a boring choice.
(If somebody is kind enough to encode the WIP in the first post, that would be nice and it would make the comparison easier.)
Cut up the intro a little bit so both players start inside the level at the same frame.
4.27 seconds difference
left is aqfaq, right is dimon12321
Link to video
Thank you for the encode, but LETS WATCH LEVEL 2 =), I was also a pacifist!
Nice run, but it's impossible to TAS this game on Nightmare (maybe UV is tolerant), because it will be a playthrough!
P.S: I TASed European version of Doom!
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Graviton wrote:
Damage range manipulation
The nature of weapons in this game is such that damage is dealt on a range from a minimum to a maximum value every shot. This means that enemies that usually take three rockets can take two rockets if you are lucky, or 4 rockets if you are unlucky. This applies to a majority of the enemies in the game, and the TAS fails to manipulate the randomness to ensure enemies are always killed with the least amount of ammo (and in turn shortest amount of time) whenever possible.
I read this before from you, but it only can be done by the method of trial and mistakes, because there is no RAM Watch in Mupen64.
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Arm..., I TASed this game for a long time earlier before read this! Thank you!
Link to video
After working with Doom 64, I'll try to remake the run if sth will be wrong!
Enjoy!
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WST wrote:
Нашёл у себя в закромах несколько плат от денди, сег и ещё какой-то игровой приставки, название которой мне не известно. Собственно, все они оказались у меня по одной простой причине: я с детства увлекался электроникой, и знакомые сносили мне всякое железо как на помойку. Именно так я и обзавёлся в детстве своими первыми денди и сегой. По причине наличия второго, кстати, в первое почти не играл. Но факт фактом — обе приставки у меня были, и были подарены знакомыми. Мне часто приносили приставки в неисправном состоянии, чаще всего для их оживления оказывалось достаточно просто поменять микросхему линейного регулятора на 5 вольт, или вставить простую схему из стабилитрона, резистора и эмиттерного повторителя вместо него. Собственно, к чему я это? Да к тому, что как только у меня появился комп и возможность играть на эмуляторах, я забил на приставки окончательно (тем более, что оккупировать ТВ мне не разрешали), и разобрал их нафиг на детали. А сейчас вот, когда я познакомился с таким явлением, как TAS, уже начинаю жалеть, что разобрал приставки, — можно было бы попробовать заняться «железной» верификацией пробегов. Но это так, к слову.
Ах, да, хочу спросить. Если я на днях выложу фотку платы от неопознанной приставки (это явно не денди и не сега, но явно что-то в таком же духе), её тут кто-нибудь может опознать? Или, быть может, просто описать её словами? Просто любопытно стало, что за зверь такой.
Эх, блин! У меня было все тоже самое в детстве: сначала был Famicom (самый настоящий!), потом в один день каким-то хреном Марио и другие игры перестали запускаться, хотя кнопки все работали! Потом мне купили клавиатуру-денди и на ней играть в специальные игры (для этой клавы) было просто нереально: кнопки западали и при нажатии издавали глухой звук, что описать невозможно! Вскоре на джойстиках сломались крестовины, и оказалось что они держались на маленькой палочке (О чем они думали??)! Потом как-то раз купил Сегу Мега Драйв и она поработала 3 года! Все игры были суперские, и я даже имел картридж со взломаной версией UMK3 под названием Ultimate Mortal Kombat Trilogy! Игра была революционная, но очень часто крашилась, а год назад вышла 20-ая (?) версия хака, на которой наконец-то исправили все вылеты и я с удовольствием проТАСил игру после хорошей мысли в голове! Картридж зато продал за 150 грн после "смерти" сеги =( Ну вот и закончилась моя ностальгия! Потом была вторая сонька и затем Xbox 360. Выкладывай фотку, посмотрим!
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AzumaK wrote:
I almost always agree that a TAS should be the hardest difficulty possible, but in the case of Doom, the games often have an exceedingly unfair highest difficulty. According to the Skill Level page from Doom Wikia:
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Skill_level#Doom_64_skill_levels
Doom 64 has 4 difficulty levels, with Watch me die! being hardest. Apparently, difficulty only changes the amount of monsters. Of course, here at TASvideos, we need to know more. In some Doom games, the player takes extremely higher damage, and enemies are much tougher and faster. If Doom 64 only adjusts the spawns, I'd say the TAS should be on Watch me die!... unless it's an unreasonably high amount of monsters (but Hyper Princess Pitch made it work!).
And finally... don't be too sad if it doesn't get published! This is a great framework for what could happen with some collaboration. What ends up being published doesn't need to be 101% perfect, it just needs some cleaning up. :]
I'm not sad now! Watch me die is Ultra-Violence. 6th deneration console Dooms hadn't Nightmare difficulty from the start (Saturn and PSX got it back after 1st release, sth like that). id knew that Nightmare would be hard for consol ports, but SNES and 32x had it anyway and no-one will play on it! Fast monsters can be maken by typing a command in the line Object, in the label on desktop on PrBoom port on which all guys make TAS on PC Doom.
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Derakon wrote:
Since this is a fighting game, you should make certain to place the emphasis on making an entertaining run, rather than necessarily a fast run. The problem with speed-oriented TASes of fighting games is that they tend to just end up being the TASer beating up on a "defenseless" AI (since the AI cannot accomplish anything when fighting against someone with access to TAS tools).
I suggest you watch some of the published fighting game TASes on this website, especially the Mortal Kombat TASes, to get some ideas for how you can make your run as entertaining as possible. Good luck!
Unfortunately, it's just impossible! There are no second player for making tool-assisted vs tool-assisted battles. The game is ported on 3-button Genesis and there are a few moves, no combos.
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Patashu wrote:
Dimon12321 wrote:
Warepire wrote:
For reasons stated by Garrison and Graviton I also voted no. But PLEASE try again, Doom 64 is a really entertaining game to watch.
I have bad feeling about the run... I'm a little depressed now! Why did you vote no? The movie isn't entertaining =)!?? If my inspiration comes back to me, I'll try again. Bring It On diffic. goes??
Keep in mind that Garrison and Graviton are REALLY eager to see an awesome Doom 64 TAS. In fact, we all are! So here's what you should do
1) Play with all the glitches and speedrunning tricks you haven't tried out yet
2) Make a WIP of the first level, make an unlisted youtube encode of it, post both on the Doom 64 thread on tasvideos
3) Garrison, Graviton, etc will let you know if you missed any optimizations, and then you can fix them and be satisfied with the knowledge that your run of that level has no known errors left (It's a great feeling :) ). Proceed to the next stage, etc.
How does that sound?
BTW, the TAS should either be on the hardest difficulty or easiest difficulty.
AAAARRRRRHHHHHH!!!!!!
"It's a great feeling"... Come on! TAS all the game with that feeling and I with pleasure give a like to your published video! I'll try sth, but only on Be Gentle!, because you hadn't seen my die though I made it in one of my WIPs (old) =):
Link to video
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Warepire wrote:
boct1584 was not saying it is impossible to get it published. boct1584 said that bootleg games (such as this) are judged also as a game. Meaning it will become harder to have it accepted. Submitting an as-much-as-possible optimized movie will increase your chances of acceptance greatly.
Then I have all chances! First stage is ready: I saved about 28,5 seconds. I think I'll save about 5 minutes in total!
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boct1584 wrote:
Pirate games are, I believe, subject to the same judging criteria as ROM hacks, which is to say that both the run and the game itself are judged.
I don't have time to watch this right now, but if you think this version is suboptimal, don't submit it. Wait until you finish the new version, then submit that one.
Why do I need to reTAS the game if it won't be published?? Although it's easy to do. Wait!
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Aqfaq wrote:
yep2yel wrote:
...expect it to be obsoleted within a day, if even that.
I think the number of people who have the time/motivation/skill to obsolete this run is actually very low. Well, if we gave any experienced taser a full day to work, he could obsolete almost any TAS by one frame. But even if you gave me a thousand hours, I might still be struggling to finish a run for Doom (on any system). The game is a billion-headed beast of randomness, which frightens me a lot.
MTA is a great Doom 64 TASer, but he gave up on the last yeah and I think he will TAS Zelda only. Graviton has a skill too, but he just offered to teach me. Thats all!
I'll try to TAS the game on Bring It On if my inspiration comes to me back!
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Warepire wrote:
For reasons stated by Garrison and Graviton I also voted no. But PLEASE try again, Doom 64 is a really entertaining game to watch.
I have bad feeling about the run... I'm a little depressed now! Why did you vote no? The movie isn't entertaining =)!?? If my inspiration comes back to me, I'll try again. Bring It On diffic. goes??
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AzumaK wrote:
I haven't watched the run yet, but I'm quite certain I'll be very entertained, and likely keep in on my media box for a long time. However... I can't see it going to anywhere but gruefood. It simply doesn't have the refinement for the vault, but is an excellent effort nonetheless.
However, there is that one issue... games like Doom 64, Super Mario Kart, F-Zero have insanely high thresholds for perfect (or even 'acceptable') runs, and as such, these games never end up getting completed or accepted. I wish there was a solution to this, but there isn't a simple one. I'd like gruefood submissions to be a little more visible, and more submissions go to it... but I've been a fan for 10+ years, not really an issue for me if a run I like isn't published, I'll keep it somehow, heh.
Anyhow... I look forward to watching it soon! Great effort, and I'm sure if you guys put your heads together, you could put together a worthy run given some time!
Agreed! Probably I played hard for the first time. Thank you!
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Graviton wrote:
As someone who has quite a bit of knowledge of the game and the speedrun, here is a short list of the most important TAS-only and/or real-time viable strategies that are either not utilized or under-utilized in this run:
Neutral reset/Speed multipliers
Resetting the control stick neutral to "down" means that when the stick is at rest, the game thinks you are holding up. When you then hold up on the stick, the game reads this as "even more up" and you move significantly faster. Also, the use of toggle strafe in conjunction with running at an angle (strafe-running) to increase speed is lacking in this TAS. I would estimate that upwards of five minutes, if not more, are lost by not using both of these tricks to their fullest extent.
It should be noted as well that the TAS appears to not adjust the control sensitivity in any way, severely hindering the ability to turn quickly around corners. This is a significant source of time that is bled throughout the run.
Advanced enemy manipulation
Enemies, when manipulated properly, can open doors and lower certain elevators, eliminating the need to activate them yourself. There doesn't appear to be any purposeful use of this in the run.
Spawn prevention
Standing over the spawn point of certain enemies can prevent them from spawning. Manipulating enemies to walk over another enemy spawn point can also prevent a spawn. This is particularly useful for preventing the spawn of very strong enemies that require a nontrivial amount of time to kill.
Multiple trigger skips
This game has a prolific use of movement based triggers that spawn enemies, raise and lower floors, and many other things. The best use of skipping these triggers is to prevent the spawn of enemies that get in your way, which can be done on several levels. The TAS makes use of this only once as far as I can tell.
Damage range manipulation
The nature of weapons in this game is such that damage is dealt on a range from a minimum to a maximum value every shot. This means that enemies that usually take three rockets can take two rockets if you are lucky, or 4 rockets if you are unlucky. This applies to a majority of the enemies in the game, and the TAS fails to manipulate the randomness to ensure enemies are always killed with the least amount of ammo (and in turn shortest amount of time) whenever possible.
Proper BFG usage
The TAS does not utilize the BFG to its fullest potential, often using several more shots than optimal for cyberdemons. If a TAS manipulates the BFG to output its maximum or near maximum damage output, cyberdemons should never take more than two BFG shots to kill.
-----------------------------
Along with these, there are several instances of poor routing or time wasted killing enemies that can easily be ran past. Most instances of these sub-optimal routing decisions appear to be a result of them be done in prior real-time speedruns, as I assume these were used as a reference in the making of this TAS. Many of these routes have since been obsoleted. Also, general ammo management leaves much to be desired.
I am glad that this game has started to receive attention from people, but as of now there is still so much that needs to be improved. I look forward to seeing any improvements and would gladly volunteer my time and knowledge to helping anyone (including Dimon) who wishes to make a more optimal TAS for this amazing game.
Knowing all this, you could actually TAS this game a big time before I did! There are some videos about Doom 64 on your YouTube channel: I'm sure you TASed that part of the levels. My run is awesome anyway!
Advanced enemy manipulation: show me an example of this! I knew that it is, but making this for saving time is vacancy!
With the rest I'm unfortunately agreed =( Damn, I know how BFG works and how manipulate the high damage, but the enemies were so strong anyway!
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Aqfaq wrote:
This is not bad by any means. Tasvideos standard is just so damn high.
Voting yes for the effort and for the ambitious first submission!
Doom! <3
Thank you for understanding! For newbie like me, this movie is awesome! I TASed a big game for the first time. I expected that tasvideos accepts all games that aren't TASed to give people more fun, according to what TAS is difficult to make, like this.
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Garrison wrote:
While the time may look impressive compared to what human play has achieved, there's some very fundamental gaps in the TASers knowledge in regards to movement speed. The way speed works in a nutshell is that there are several stacking speed modifiers that this run apparently does none of. Strafe Running with the strafe buttons is one factor, Strafe Running with use of the Strafe On button is another (this one is more tricky due to the fact that it locks you facing one direction. A major speed modifier that's actually really fundamental to Doom 64 running and sets it aside from the PC Doom games is called neutral reset. Basically you can reset the neutral position on an N64 analog stick and setting the neutral position of the stick to all the way back essentially gives the player double the run speed when moving forward. This comes at the cost of your ability to back up via analog stick and can only be achieved with the specific back button.
Another thing that could potentially be optimized further is playing with a higher sensitivity to make turns quicker and get enemies out of your way faster. Enemies in general are not manipulated all that well in this TAS. It's a shame to have this TAS discovered in a "complete" state, but there's just such a large gap in understanding that someone with the knowledge could easily shave upwards of ten minutes off of this.
A little agreed, but some objects like stairs (had this on map 3) and switches (had on map 26) can not go down if you run too fast! Also I made lots compensative move to turn faster!
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Dan_ wrote:
I agree with everything Garrison said.
I only watched the first 4 stages, and then skipped to the last level after seeing him miss the 1st secret stage. It's a shame that he skips the secrets, because the fully powered laser is way stronger than the BFG and can melt cyberdemons and the final boss very quickly. I'm not sure if the time it takes to play the three secret levels is worth it, but personally I think an "all-stages" run should be done, and it would be much more entertaining than an any% run.
That is, all story stages. There are a few extra hidden bonus stages that could be interesting to see TASed (Hectic and Cat and Mouse especially), but I wouldn't expect to see them included with the rest of the game.
Yes, TASing this game without Laser Gun was too difficult, but I saved about 1:30 minuts in total! I was going to take one of the 3 demon artifacts anyway to pass the last stage faster: 2 teleports is tolerantly and easy, but 3 is hard and confusing! Also, in vain you watched only 4 levels: after 7th map I was doing the best!
Hidden stages will be TASed soon! Help me to get on the 3rd hidden map (In the void) to see TAS with "normal weapons" or I'll type the password!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Yeah! I'm going to send the movie on TASVideos next weak, because I won't have the internet to answer the questions while the judge goes! I'd like my movie to be published anyway. Some games are reTASed for 5 time and all were published, but many people know this game and know the defects =(
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I'd like to present you a tool-assisted speedrun on the Pirate port of Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub-Zero named Mortal Kombat 5: Sub-zero, what was realised in 2000 and I even had a cartridge with this game.
Link to video
This run was done in 48:30. I have found all mistakes and ready to redo the run: it will be faster and less boring than now (We have the vault anyway!).
Answer the question, please: Will the judge accept this GAME? Not TAS: TAS will be in best view!
P.S: ROMs name is Mortal Combat 5 (Unl) [c][!] - what does [c] mean?
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Ilari wrote:
Dimon12321 wrote:
Dual Core and Idle skipping on, DSP HLE emulation (fast)
Using Dual Core or Idle Skipping for TASing is a very bad idea. Also DSP HLE is a bad idea.
Yes, the TAS-safe settings of these are quite a bit slower...
I.e. it's difficult to say enough or not... I'll download the game again (I psyched that day and deleted the game) and write again.
P.S: your DOS runs are awesome!
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Ilari wrote:
Dimon12321 wrote:
Is it possible to TAS this game without desyncs? I passed the first stage for 3 times and haven't got the good result yet! What did I do wrong?
Is controller type set to gamepad or wiimote?
Gamepad should be relatively stable if you set the settings correctly (Especially Dualcore off, Idle skipping off, DSP to either LLE option, EURGB60 off if NTSC game).
Wiimote just causes desyncs sometimes.
Gamepad. Dual Core and Idle skipping on, DSP HLE emulation (fast), PAL-60 used (I agreed that this option caused desync, not looked twice), but I play GC game, not Wii! I thought it relates to Wii games, because this option is placed in Wii settings!
I'll change my settings to yours, but I'm not sure the game will play 60 FPS. The games are confusing on this emulator: Resident Evil 4 works great without any speed-ups, but Madagascar's FPS is not higher that 10!
You probably seen my processor: AMD Phenom ii X4 (Quard-core, 2,8 Ghz). It's enough to emulate GC game, isn't it??
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
