Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
billybobfred wrote:
Is saving Dan necessary for a collectible, or is it its own part of our working definition of "all collectibles"? I vaguely recall that the 10th ribbon might not appear if he's dead -- if that's the case, then it's moot anyway, but if not, speedrunners tend to skip saving him because it only changes the plot.
It's possible to collect the Trapmine without actually using it to save him, so the checklist is sorta fuzzy on that particular point.
If you already have the trapmine it is faster to save him because the cutscenes are shorter
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
feos wrote:
I was just crafting a clear cut definition, it's unrelated to personal preference. Overloads affect gameplay, but not stats. This borderline is way better than what is described in the submission text as reasons against it. So now I just need to verify the movie.
So are you going to time it at Tor kill or at credits?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
feos wrote:
Thanks you! So can we finally define collectables as "items you can pick up that directly influence in-game statistics"? As for ribbons, they also have an effect of a unique monologue when you get them all, is that correct?
The banana gun doesn't fit this definition so are you suggesting that it shouldn't be included?
As for ribbons, yes they each have some dialog and you need all of them to get the final one.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
Svimmer wrote:
What I'm saying is I'd personally wait for someone else to challenge the definition used here (which is based on what's tracked and irreversible) and see if their arguments make sense.
Similarly, if you leave it up to the TASers to check each others' work (making sure they actually meet the criteria) at risk of the TAS being removed if it doesn't; this tends to result in self-moderation. On SDA, I don't think I remember even a single case of the run not meeting the category definitions after those had already been agreed upon, mainly because the runners will use existing runs as a basis for theirs, but you seem to think some kind of checklist is in necessary. I guess it could be useful.
I think some of the collectibles don't affect the game outside of gameplay. Perhaps you'll make a short algorithm/list for what is picked up when that includes everything, matslo?
I've made a table summariszing the things I collect. https://imgur.com/a/fGooiCO
Note that since all base nanoweapons are required for the banana gun I don't include them seperately.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
feos wrote:
Matslo123 wrote:
With the other collectables there is an easy way to know if it has been collected or not (ribbons and scrambler in menu, posters in poster viewer, supercharges by looking at level and points).
Please post detailed notes on how to check this for every collectable type. This aspect was probably intended to become a part of the collectable definition, but left unexamined.
For the trapmine you can tell based on the ending. If Dan is present in the ending it means that you used the trapmine. The banana gun can be selected with 0 at any time, though I don't do this as it wastes time. And the jump/armor upgrades are visible on the stats portion of the screen. All of these collectables have some impact whereas nano overloads don't.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
feos wrote:
Sorry for bringing this up so late but I'm still not convinced nano overloads should be avoided.
In the previous thread I asked for opinions and got only one opinion other than the author's, and it consisted of general rhetorics and RTA rhetorics.
The TAS-related point against them is that they cost a couple extra minutes. But nonetheless they are identical in accessibility to all other collectables. Now accessibility is the primary criterion here. You can't access all nano/health/armor/ammo by simply running into them if you're maxed out. Nano overloads you just freely pick up. And as noted by the author, their negative effects (regarding routing) can be manipulated away.
Matslo123 wrote:
But exta input is trivial, all you have to do is press c, enter and esc.
Hourglass is what makes it so hard.
Saying that you need to get all nano overloads is like saying that you need to get all mushrooms, fireflowers and star powerups in Super Mario Bros. to complete 100%. At any given point there is no way of knowing how many you have collected. With the other collectables there is an easy way to know if it has been collected or not (ribbons and scrambler in menu, posters in poster viewer, supercharges by looking at level and points).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
I know that this is unofficial software but Kataiser has made a tool for converting the .wtf files to files that clearly indicate which inputs are pressed when and for how long. I'm not saying anything about his iji tas mod, just this tool. It should be easy to compare the first x frames of two tases this way right?
https://github.com/Kataiser/wtf-to-itf
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
If you find that to be so much of a hassle then sure. If you are having issues with it crashing I suggest you use the settings that I say in my submission.
But couldn't you just varify the credits movie and for timing end at the last frame of input before Tor. The noend and credits movies are both identical except for the very end.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
feos wrote:
Svimmer wrote:
I'm probably influenced by RTA-runs where they're never considered at all.
Why are they not considered though?
Because they are useless and would add on time for no reason. They are besically useless powerups. The only thing that seperates them form other "items" is their rarity (there are lots of nano, armor and health pickups).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
feos wrote:
Undesired powerup is an interesting con, even though sticking to strictly one and not two instances when defining a collectable feels a bit weird. I'm not opposed to avoiding this thing, but I want others' opinions too.
It's easy to avoid getting the undesired powerups, it's just rng (by firing weapons on certain frames). And I suppose I will remove my point about 2 per sector, it wasn't the main point anyway.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
About the nano overloads: I think they shouldn't be required for this run. There are none in sector 1, there is one in sectors 3, 4, 6, 8 and X; there are two is sectors 5, 7 and 9.
Also they are quite inconsistantly placed. Some are on your path and take no extra time to collect (one is sector 2, 7 and 8 but there is also one in sector 8 you have to collect (there is no way around it)). Some take very little extra time (5-10 seconds) but some (like one in sector 2 and 5) which take 20+ seconds, most of them you have to go there and then backtrack the exact way you came from.
Not to mention the fact that they don't do anything useful, they may even be harmful (in some cases you don't want to revive or you don't want to tech damage/reflect projectiles because you want to damage boost).And after the effect runs out it's like you didn't collect them at all.
All in all they would add on an additional 2-3 minutes for nothing in return.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
Radiant wrote:
Matslo123 wrote:
Could you provide your reasons for why you would find it more entertaining on a higher difficulty (I assume you mean extreme)? This is not only targeted towords Radiant, any feedback is appreciated but please make your reasons justified.
Most importantly doing this on ultimortal is impossible for obvious reasons but doing it on extreme is impossible too. In sector 6 you need 27 points for velocithor in order to get the poster. You are capped at level 18 and would have 6 supercharges max. This means a maximum number of 24 points. While it is true that doing the run on hard is possible, Iji is very much the same but longer.
Because of the level cap you would have to just spend extra time collecting nano and killing enemies. Bosses would be the same except for Tor, which would have 1050 hp instead of 900, causing a more dragged out fight. Krotera would remain identical because of rng manipulation. The only change here is the amount of damage the turret heads deal to Krotera, but it isn't optimal to use those anyway. Asha 1 would just get nuked anyway. Proxima would be identical as the only change is the amount of damage done to proxima by lightning, which I don't use since I wouldn't get the supercharge. Iosa 1 would be the same fight just dragged out because lasers from the ceiling deal 35 instead of 40 dmg. Iosa 2 would be the same. While Asha 2 could attack faster, I can already use rng manipulation to shoot the buster gun almost all the time anyway, meaning that the fight wouldn't differ much.
There would have to be more nanofield reboots, meaning wasting time on leveling up skills. The only difference would be that health pickups restore 1 hp instead of 2. This is insignificant and doesn't change the gameplay in any way. There is never a situation where you have to rely on health pickups.
Overall hard difficulty would be identical but slower due to the above reasons. If you don't believe me, look at what it changes and cosnider the impact of those changes.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
feos wrote:
So this movie is going to be canceled I guess, until a full run is made?
Yes, but please don't remove it until we sort out all of the issues. I will remake the TAS and make a new submission once that is the case.
Currently that is the difficulty.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
Radiant wrote:
It's worth considering that you appear to use easy mode because that's what Speedrun.com does. You claim that people would find higher difficulty modes "far less entertaining", but several posters (including Patashu, Necroyeur, ais523, ThunderAxe, and myself) have suggested they actually prefer higher difficulties. Maybe you could ask posters what they find entertaining instead of assuming.
Could you provide your reasons for why you would find it more entertaining on a higher difficulty (I assume you mean extreme)? This is not only targeted towords Radiant, any feedback is appreciated but please make your reasons justified.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
The rules for an all collectables run:
A collectable is a unique item/unlockable that can only be obtained once per sector and doesn't require multiple playthroughs to collect/unlock. This doesn't mean that unlocking something by completing the game on a higher difficulty counts as a collectable since it isn't collected/unlocked within a sector.
Doing the run on any other difficulty than Normal would have much the same drawbacks as were discussed in my previous TAS discussions and I will not repeat myself here.
This would exclude ammo, health, and nano pickups but include:
• All posters, ribbons and supercharges
• Yukabacera's scrambler
• Trapmine
• Banana gun
• All armor and jump upgrades
All jump upgrades are required to beat the game anyway but they fit in the category of collectables. When I say all armor upgrades I mean maxing out armor (because they spawn in multiple locations if you have not collected them all).
The only other item you can get in a single playthrough is the massacre (which you get for being a pacifist) but seeing as you cannot colect some posters or get the scrambler while being a pacifist it cannot be collected. I favour having more items collected over getting the massacre.
Perhaps nano overloads should also be included as there is one in every sector except for sector 1. They wouldn't add on much time, some are completely on the way. You could argue that they are similar to supercharges except that they don't really do anything useful.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
Radiant wrote:
feos wrote:
Weapons can't be a part of it since you can't collect them all in one playthrough.
Well you probably could collect all weapons in one playthrough, but this would require "new game+" savefile that has Inner Prey unlocked.
My earlier post mistakenly said the massacre is mutually-exclusive with the banana gun, but it's actually mutually-exclusive with the scrambler (which is not a weapon). So with Inner Prey unlocked you could warp to Sector Z to get the Null Driver, find all base weapons in the regular levels, get your stats to Tasen 10 / Komato 10 / Crack 10 to hack seven compound weapons (the eighth can be hacked but is also on the ground in Sector X), enter the secret area with the Banana Gun, get the Massacre at the final boss, and proceed to get the secret Sector Y ending.
And, well, Sector Z at least makes a very different viewer experience. I'm not saying that's how the branch needs to be, but it at least strikes me as possible.
This run would be incompatible with all ribbons / posters, since Inner Prey requires you to already have those. It would still be compatible with all supercharges, since supercharges aren't recorded anywhere.
Getting the banana gun and massacre would be identical to the pacifist run I did exept the MPFB boosts in sector 9. This doesn't strike me as a better watch than my proposed all collectables run. Not to mention that the varification TAS would be 3+ hours long and repetetive in order to be able to get to sector Z in the first place.
That being said I might do a TAS of only sector Z but not post it here, just on my youtube channel as it woldn't really fit here.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
feos wrote:
It only says that probably all nanoweapons should be collected, but how does this cover this page http://www.remar.se/daniel/ijiguide_weapons.php
I've been told you can only have something like 17 of those. And even then, cracked weapons aren't present as collectable items.
The first 8 weapons are regular weapons that you need to pick up. They have varying komato/tasen requirements. The next 8 nanoweapons are made with a combination of these at a cracking station with varying crack requirements. You can have all of these at the same time without much trouble. The next 3 weapons are secret weapons. The null driver requires what would be basically a true 100%.
You could collect massacre and banana gun in one run but then you couldn't collect all posters and supercharges. I don't think that's a good tradeoff.
Even though you can't collect all weapons, I still think that you should collect the ones that you can (meaning that banana gun would have to be collected). Again, this category is all the collectables you can get within a single run.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
feos wrote:
Thanks for your patience and dedication! We don't often have to invent a brand new full completion definition, and our requirements are quite tight, so when there are people that have the energy to go all the way with us, it's very rewarding. Because then this definition can be reused by other communities and individuals due to its qualities we all participate in crystallizing.
So how many weapons will be collectable this way?
I get all of the basic nanoweapons in sector 9, the banana gun is the only secret weapon obtainable. Look at my long post for more info on weapons.
P.S. I have edited my previous post slightly.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(103)
Joined: 3/10/2019
Posts: 73
feos wrote:
Woops, I didn't notice you've changed the branch. I've been talking about "all items" for quite a while. To be fair, "collectables" sounds kinda ambiguous to me. It feels like an arbitrary middle ground between unlockables and items. How do we clearly and unambiguously define a collectable? The definition should be easy to apply and see if an object belongs or not.
It is ambiguous but that is why I asked for feedback on my post. Having a community defined category is the only way to go as collecting every item isn't viable. I think that having a justified ruleset is the closest to 100% completion while still being entertaining. It would be focused around all unique items you can get within a single playthrough. Dan does list every secret on his website, you can go sector by sector and see if there are any other things that should be added onto the list.
A collectable is a unique item/unlockable that can only be obtained once per sector and doesn't require multiple playthroughs to collect/unlock. This doesn't mean that unlocking something by completing the game on a higher difficulty counts as a collectable since it isn't collected/unlocked within a sector.
Doing the run on any other difficulty than Normal would have much the same drawbacks as were discussed in my previous TAS discussions and I will not repeat myself here.
This would exclude ammo, health, and nano pickups but include all of the items I proposed in my longer post.
The only other thing you can get in a single playthrough is the massacre (which you get for being a pacifist) but seeing as you cannot colect some posters or get the scrambler while being a pacifist it cannot be collected. I favour having more items collected over getting the massacre.