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feos wrote:
Okay I watched it more carefully and I think this screen should be the final one in the encode: https://i.imgur.com/wpPgtXj.png I guess the movie used for encoding should be edited to stop there.
As for the main movie, we can publish the one that stops at the final shot. There's nothing after that final shot in the file you linked above? If we're measuring it that way, the last required action should be the last movie frame.
Really all that is after the final shot is dialog skipping, which, according to the game rules that I quoted in my previous post, does not need to be in the speedrun. I think that timing should stop there but the TAS should still complete the rest of the game. The second file I likend ends at the frame the final rocket was shot.
I have edited the video so that the last frame is the stat screen, the TAS is already optimal when it comes to the final imput.
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Svimmer wrote:
Hmm... so you speedrun the game as well? You know about Speed Demos Archive #shamelessplug? Truth be told, I'm an admin on that site and more active there in general. We're always happy to see submissions of a relatively similar calibre, and the site's philosophy is very similar to the TASvideos one (though the kinds of runs you can do more restricted).
This site also has a part that's meant for storing information: http://tasvideos.org/GameResources.html
Also one idea would be to put anything that's more about real-time running in a wiki page on SDA: https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Category:Games
I personally feel run notes belong in an openly editable and accessible format.
BTW: Whichever site, and whatever the reason, pointing out what could be improved in your runs is useful for future TASers and runners. Someone could be left wondering if there's some special purpose to that extra nano pickup.
Yes, I do speedrun the game, mainly 1.7 where I have wr in both played categories (on speedrun.com).
As for run notes, Daniel Remar's segmeted speedrun pretty much has it all for a non-pacifist 1.6 run. http://speeddemosarchive.com/Iji.html
Running ultimortal 1hp in real time is never going to happen. Not in a million years.
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feos wrote:
Time stops when your movie gets the last input, and there are 2 way to do it. You either make the game reach completion as soon as possible, or you try to set up something that would allow you to stop the movie sooner, while being sure the game completes itself.
Sometimes the latter approach adds too much downtime, and so it's not always sane to absolutize it, but sometimes it fits nicely and amuses people.
https://youtu.be/5u0GkPFnhTs?t=260
From the 'movie rules'
Post-completion input
Some games acknowledge the game has been completed, and then require additional input to show the rest of the ending sequence. For the purposes of speed records, you may stop the movie when the initial ending sequence is guaranteed to begin, without including extra input to process the entire ending. This is conditioned on all the following being met (full movies are still preferred):
Extra input is trivial to execute for anyone replaying the movie
Extra input does not change the resulting ending
An alternative movie is provided that contains this extra input, for publishers to use for encoding
Examples of situations that require additional post-completion input:
Dialog boxes appearing during the ending sequence
Additional ending screens only showing up after some button is pressed
High score screens asking for name input
If you stopped the .wtf file after the final missile was shot and skipped the dialog and cutscene youself, you could end the time even when the last missile was shot which I have done and included into my previous google drive folder (in iji1.6) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rrnqTq0nAW73_LvBDfRDLoGQLPsccD4r
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feos wrote:
We care about the movie length the most, and then in some conditions in-game time may be preferred. If both make sense and can be used to measure and compare, it doesn't matter where we draw the line. What matters is overall optimality.
Ingame time is not a good measurement in this case because accepting the truce in sector 3 skips the bossfight but adds on 10 minutes of ingame time. This makes this TAS slower ingame time than the segmented run done by Daniel Remar but overall it is a lot faster. For this reason I suggest that real time is used instead of ingame time.
And time should stop when Tor is killed and not after the outro sequence is finished.
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@feos since you are the judge, I would like to know how you plan on timing this. In RTA the time starts on 'New game' select and ends when Tor's health bar disappears. For this TAS that would be on frame 87 to frame 49860 (49773 frames total). Iji runs at 30FPS. This is without any lag or load times. I think that timing the run with lag and loadtimes would not make much sense because it would wary drastically from computer to computer.
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FractalFusion wrote:
I watched both this and the Ultimortal 1HP version. While I don't particularly admire this game, I do appreciate that you took the time to do these modes.
That being said, I prefer this TAS for having more variety and tricks (such as damage abuse / flying across the screen) as well as having shorter boss fights.
It's too bad Iji 1.7 is not TASable though. Stuff like this is why I gave up on the notion of Windows TASing being a real thing.
While I do agree that this TAS is more entertaining, the other one was far more difficult to make due to the sheer amount of RNG manipulation I had to do. The main reason that I did it is because Radiant was crying about this TAS being on the easiest difficulty.
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Svimmer wrote:
At 4:25, you pick up extra energy in a detour, but you don't have armor damage and you're not using energy for getting skills so... why?
6:30 whoa what a boss fight! :)
8:35 The restricted storage I found super-tough to get through in my no-damage, no-kill real time run (on the easiest setting!).
Yeah this attempt that I'm talking about... I only ever got to level five I think so I have some perspective on how stupid the luck has to be.
24:00 I can't even imagine what this would be like...
25:30 Nice that you could work in some of that slapstick humor. I don't know, something comedic about this moment.
31:53 o_O
Is there a lot of manipulation to get Asha not to warp around so much?
Radiant: You don't think you owe an apology for your hasty conclusions about the other run?
I was hoping noone would notice the sector 3 nano pickup :(. The truth is that I am so used to doing that in regular any% runs that I did it automatically and only noticed once I was nearly done with the TAS. You need to realize that each segment takes a long time to do because of RNG. And yes, there is RNG manipulation on every enemy encounter. The bossfights were especially difficult to try to optimize, Asha in particular.
I guess I should write in the submission notes how you can affect RNG.
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feos wrote:
But does it have to be exact? If sync of the save anchored movie fully depends on prior gameplay that can't be replicated, we can't accept a movie since it can't be verified.
UPDATE: It seems that it does not matter how you beat extreme, you just need to beat it. As long as you change the settings like for this TAS, it should work fine. Do I now have to make a TAS that beats extreme as well?
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feos wrote:
But does it have to be exact? If sync of the save anchored movie fully depends on prior gameplay that can't be replicated, we can't accept a movie since it can't be verified.
I'll look into it but I think that it does have to be the exact same savefile. I don't fully know what the game saves but if it only saves your level, nano and time (exact to a second), then I could recreate that. Otherwise I doubt it.
So if anyone more techical knows what the game saves after you save at the end of a sector, please let me know.
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feos wrote:
I don't understand the question <_<
I don't think I could recreate the stuff I did to beat the game on expert to get the same savefile. However you need a savefile where you beat the game on expert in order to play on the difficulty this other TAS of mine in made on.
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feos wrote:
Oh, so this is just a setup and not a real save anchor! The actual TAS doesn't depend on any prior completion at all, so it is perfectly legitimate. In your case, this "verification" movie could be replaced with simply manually listing all the steps that configure the settings the needed way. Then anyone would be able to replay the TAS without this secondary movie. We do this quite a lot in Linux TASing.
So yeah, just add the setup steps to the submission text and we're good to go.
I have a question about another TAS i'm working on. It is on the ultimortal difficulty, which requires the game to be beaten on expert. I started doing this run before having read the rules about anchored saves. Producing the same run that I had on expert to beat the game would be practically impossible. Any advice on what I should do?
Also how do you plan on timing this? I do touch on this in my submission notes.
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feos wrote:
First of all, why does a save file even has to be needed? We don't publish movies that require a save anchor if the same goal can be achieved without a save anchor.
And if the save anchor is required according to the movie goals, first you need to make a movie that generates this save file. It doesn't have to be optimal. It should just be a guaranteed way to make the actual save anchored movie play properly provided this save file.
So I made a TAS that sets up the savefile. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1m6OSWEl4UHqhOdmBUqnP00mW3Vqa21Oo Just run it on a fresh savefile before running the actual TAS.
The only thing it does is it changes the settings and goes into a game so that they save. It is improtant to disable screen shaking, special effects and gamma effects because the game lags A LOT less, especially since the game was made in 2010 and is very compatable with most modern drivers. In this way it is important in order to lower the time of the run.
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fsvgm777 wrote:
Once again, it doesn't start from a clean save file:
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
ZXCQWER32000001024035169595995959959590000000ASD
5.74326552900000E+0009
Ijicryption v2.2 (29/11/08)
WARNING: MANUALLY MODIFYING THIS SAVEFILE WILL MAKE IT CORRUPT
Since it seems that save file is required (because I really doubt it will sync on a clean save file), it technically runs afoul of the Movie Rules, as no verification movie is provided.
For reference, a clean save file in this game looks like this:
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
ZXCQWER00001000000959599595995959959590000000ASD
6.92360889100000E+0009
Ijicryption v2.2 (29/11/08)
WARNING: MANUALLY MODIFYING THIS SAVEFILE WILL MAKE IT CORRUPT
EDIT: It desyncs for me in Sector 2 on a clean save file if I set multithreading to Allow and it crashes at the end of Sector 1 if I set multithreading to Wrap in my XP VM (can't check in my Win10 host, since my nVidia drivers are way too recent, last known working one was 367.21).
What do you have to do to get a varification movie? I can assure yo that the savefile has not been edited in any way. If a varification movie is required, I'd gladly prvide it.
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Svimmer wrote:
Thanks for taking the effort and good luck with future submissions! Everyone who runs DOS or Windows games is automatically my homie... ;)
The only problem with tasing windows games is that hourglass is the only tool and it only really works on windows XP. Libtas is much better but only works on linux.
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Svimmer wrote:
Right, so having seen several runs before (probably the previous TAS or TASes too), I can't immediately see any obvious fault with this, like some kind of trick completely missing. It seems clear the author is up to date on what is deemed the best strats for the game. I believe the game was programmed in a rather solid way (e.g. you can't move while on elevators to prevent getting stuck anywhere, or whatever the reason) and I don't think I ever saw anything like OOB tricks.
That having been said, there's a lot to think about in ammo routing and the AI manipulation can probably always be a bit better, as evidenced by a few moments here and there where a shot needed to be ducked or something of that kind. But yeah, I'm seeing Iji pre-jumping before every fall and generally things look deliberated and so this kinds of 'i's have seemingly been dotted.
And yeah I think that while the pace is a bit languid in the early levels, things get hectic enough later on especially during the few non-trivial boss encounters. The soundtrack doesn't hurt bringing on this impression. :D So it's going to be a yes vote from me.
If you're going for a challenge run later, are you considering doing a "low %" where you neither take any damage nor kill anyone? I don't know what's the most entertaining, I just know that was really tough to do when I once tried just casually.
Finally someone that can actully appreciate the little optimization details. I do agree that s few frames could have been saved here or there but trust me I tried to get better RNG for a long time before I decided to just jump over a missile or whatever. This doesn't always lose a frame but if you do it a few times it does.
The game is suprisngly glitch-free. The only glitch that I know of is the Proxima one, so that's why the run may not seem as impresive. There simply aren't faster ways of moving than the ones showcased in the TAS.
And yes I am going for an ultimortal pacifist-ish run (note that you cannot be a pacifist on ultimortal because you have to kill Asha in sector X) where I don't go out of my way to kill anyone but also don't go out of my way to avoid killing anyone if you know what I mean. I will also do Krotera as I think it could be quite entertaining. I am working on Krotera as I am wrinting this.
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ais523 wrote:
Matslo123 wrote:
P.S In Iji 1.6 only the first sector can be done on reallyjoel's dad difficulty. After that there is a barrier blocking the way. I have TASed the first sector https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCGjinbDSL0
Isn't there some rule in the description of the difficulty that says you're supposed to kill every enemy to take the barrier down? (IIRC that isn't actually implemented because the developer knew it was impossible, but I'd expect a TAS to at least try.) You can see the same message on the screen, "100% kills required", when you reach the barrier.
Even walking to all of the areas of sector 1, let alone killing the enemies would take more than 2 minutes. You only have 2 minutes to do it so doing a legit TAS would be impossible. I don't see a point in only killing like the first 10 enemies and then dying to the time limit.
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Radiant wrote:
Here's a TAS in 26:19, and a ten-year-old speedrun in 27:18. This run doesn't appear to beat existing records.
Aside from that, I wonder how optimized this really is. Enemies can be luck-manipulated to slam you forward rapidly (e.g. at 2:52) or hit you with a missile for the same effect. This run barely uses that, and on several occasions boosts max HP (e.g. 2:54, 16:22) without using this extra health. It uses the same routing as the two-year-old speedrun.com record. As the author notes, it is "fairly standard" and doesn't appear to consider TAS-only strategies.
Finally, the stated reason for picking the easiest difficulty is incorrect, in that the skips in sector 5 and sector X are possible on Extreme difficulty. This was also pointed out in the last thread, where several people give their preference for higher difficulty. The easy mode used here has fewer enemies; slower enemies; easier boss patterns; and double HP pickups, and makes gameplay not very challenging. This strikes me as a case where the movie guidelines suggest highest difficulty.
This game is from the author of [2529] Windows Hyper Princess Pitch "Reallyjoel's Mom difficulty, best ending" by Tseralith in 15:40.48, and is where Reallyjoel's Dad comes from. He makes very interesting high difficulty levels; so I'd like to see those in a TAS. This gets a 'no' for entertainment from me.
Patashu wrote:
Unless playing on a higher difficulty is particularly boring, the highest difficulty should be used.
£e Nécroyeur wrote:
Radiant wrote:
It strikes me that faster enemies, less health powerups, and very difficult bosses could make for a more exciting run.
Agreed.
Firstly regarding the time. I chose to optimize the time for real time, not for ingame time. Because of this didn't interrupt the truce, which adds on 10 minutes of ingame time, my time seems much slower. This skips the bossfight with Krotera which takes 8 seconds (evident from the TAS you linked https://youtu.be/eiYmJJUmzpI?t=342 at this timestamp). If the only thing I changed was that i cheesed Krotera like he did, then my ingame time would be 25:25. If you were comparing by gametime, this is what you would have to consider. But since the speedruning community has decided to use real time instead of gametime, that is what I opted for. You can see the current WR for this category also does this https://www.speedrun.com/iji/run/jy9rwgvy .
Regarding the health levelups. I do use the health levelup at 2:45 in sector 4 when I take 2 damage to boost myself. It does not matter where you level it up so I just chose to do it in sector 2. The health levelup at the end of sector 4 was used in the shortcut in secror 5.
Regarding the route. I use the same route simply because it has been optimized. There is nothing that I do in the TAS that does not have a purpose. I would like to know what you mean by 'TAS only strats'. I do use a TAS only strat in sector X where I crack the lvl 6 security door.
Regarding damage boosts. I do use them as much as I can. Note that getting hit by the rocket ISN'T faster than just walking. This is why i don't use it in the run.
Regarding the difficulty. Changing the difficulty changes the amount of nano you need for each level. So for example you need the same amount of nano to get level 5 on normal as you do to get level 3 on expert. This would mean that getting level 14 in sector 5 would be very time consuming as you would need to either waste a lot of time killing enemies for nano or collecting the nano that spawns. It would probably be better just to not use the shortcut. You also could not get a nuke for asha for the same reason and therefore you would be one skill point down. And the shortcut in sector X reqires level 27 which saves at least two and a half minutes.
Regarding the faster enemies. This would not matter as I would just manipulate RNG to get them to do what I want. The bosses would take longer to kill but that’s about it.
So overall again as I said I used this difficulty to get the fastest time possible, using expert would not make sense as it isn't even the highest difficulty. I will do a 2 hp ultimortal TAS as a challange.
In conclusion make sure that you know the rules of the category and know enough about the game before making these claims. Saying "why didn't you play on a higher difficulty" or "why didn't you save Dan" is like saying "why don't you just beat the game in the way any% does" to a player running 100%.
P.S In Iji 1.6 only the first sector can be done on reallyjoel's dad difficulty. After that there is a barrier blocking the way. I have TASed the first sector https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCGjinbDSL0
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Radiant wrote:
Matslo123 wrote:
Really all it does is makes shortcuts unavailable therefore making the run unneceserily longer.
According to the manual, 'extreme' difficulty does all of the following:
You can gain 3 levels per Sector
Cracking time is decreased by 4 seconds
Certain enemies attack at a very fast rate
Certain enemies almost always dodge/reflect projectiles
When failing to crack a security box: it has a 25% chance of exploding
When failing to crack a door: there's a 75% chance its Security will increase by 1
Red nanofields recover 1 HP
Bosses are very difficult
Nano Overloads do not exist
It strikes me that faster enemies, less health powerups, and very difficult bosses could make for a more exciting run. The manual doesn't mention anything about making shortcuts unavailable. For instance, Extreme still allows you enough levels to get a Nuke required for the shortcut for the level 5 boss...
I would do ultimortal difficulty if I went for any higher difficulty. Am considering doing that once I'm done with this run. Maybe a 2 HP run.
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Radiant wrote:
Matslo123 wrote:
(2, 3, 4) I think it only makes sence to do a TAS how the game is speedrun normally.
I was hoping you'd have more of a reason behind this choice beyond "that's how some guys at speedrun.com did it".
For instance, this guy "normally" speedruns the game at the highest difficulty level, and while saving Dan, and using a different route; whereas that player and this one "normally" speedrun at the secret-higher-than-highest difficulty level (and activating the powered-up version of the final boss). So I'm curious why you picked your particular criteria instead of, say, these ones.
It's the fastest way to beat the game that's why. Playing on a higher difficulty would make many shortcuts unavailable. The bosses do not differ a whole lot, unless you do supercharge Tor but I don't think that's worth the extra time. Also those categories are not run and I like to see how big of an improvement TAS makes over human play.
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Radiant wrote:
Matslo123 wrote:
I think I will redo the TAS in order to have the audio as well.
Well I'd say the music is worth it.
But if you plan on redoing things, maybe you should ask the community for input on (1) using version 1.6 or 1.7; (2) getting the good ending where you save Dan, or the bad one like you do now; (3) whether to use easiest or hardest difficulty; and (4) pacifist or no, as that's a fairly big deal in this game (and gives you the Massacre weapon for the endboss).
Now your run will probably acceptable regardless of these choices, but it never hurts getting some wider opinion on what people prefer seeing in a run. Good luck! :D
(1) Only 1.6 works in houglass, I'd love to be able to do 1.7. If anyone can get 1.7 to work with savestates, please let me know.
(2, 3, 4) I think it only makes sence to do a TAS how the game is speedrun normally. This means normal difficulty and the route in the TAS. I will do a pacifist run seperately where I save Dan.
