Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
We typically ignore differences that aren't related to gameplay when it comes to timing (viewers can skip past text etc anyway). PAL we typically don't like due to how it runs slower than NTSC. I'm not sure how strong the guideline is in this case but it exists.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Where applicable, the movie must reach an ending screen that positively signifies a game is finished successfully. Reaching a game-over screen is not considered beating the game. If a game shows the same ending screen regardless of success or failure, reaching it is not considered successful completion.
The problem is quite simple and precise: the actual completion requirements are missing from the game.
You can't call "reaching the highest score" game completion because 1) it's a non-binary condition, and 2) it's arbitrary. I may suggest that you're supposed to not fail in any of the attempts. Or to beat some record in each of them. Or something else. When there's no hard requirement for meaningful completion, you can invent any soft requirement, but it would remain artificial, not inherent. Meaningful completion criteria are undefined for this game.
And we can't use max score to outright replace the fastest completion goal, because... that won't help with the completion definition.
You are playing through all of the events with a goal of aiming for the high score. By playing all the events you are going through all unique content the game has to offer and high score adds an objective to aim for. If completion is considered a problem because of that rule, the rules need to be fixed because it's not like you can just add additional events.
This seems like a rule written with speedruns in mind and is one of the flaws with the site in my opinion.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Vykan12 wrote:
Memory wrote:
Vykan12 wrote:
Are you serious? Voting no based on entertainment on a 2 minute video with fascinating glitches? Talk about low attention spans.
Resounding yes from me.
I like this movie but the game is glitchless. There are absolutely 0 glitches that I recall being used.
Did you watch the run, and see the part where he skips from world 3 to the credits with some kind of glitch? Despite witnessing that, still voted no/meh based on entertainment?
I was one of the authors, you commented on my encode lmao
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Vykan12 wrote:
Are you serious? Voting no based on entertainment on a 2 minute video with fascinating glitches? Talk about low attention spans.
Resounding yes from me.
I like this movie but the game is glitchless. There are absolutely 0 glitches that I recall being used.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
I'm having trouble understanding the research rollover bug from the ufopaedia text. Does it basically allow you to allocate "wasted" research time upon completion of one research project to another project?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
I am absolutely in favor of adelikat's suggestion.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Masterjun wrote:
I agree with the question. How the hell is anyone enjoying the game?
You press buttons and that makes things happen and that's pretty cool.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
feos wrote:
Memory wrote:
"Worse" performance ends the first level slower. The goal of the first level is to rack up as much points as possible within 10 passes across the center of the half pipe. This movie ends this level as quickly as possible by making small jumps that don't earn much score. It's possible to bail enough times that you end the level but don't gain any score, but this is slower. The second level is completed seemingly as poorly as it is allowed (minimal height on the jump and then ends the level by jumping off their board on the other side.
How trivial is it to finish those 2 levels ASAP?
First one can be done real time in the same time quite easily. The second is a bit more complex since you have to build up enough speed to get a jump and then end on the other ramp but it's not too hard to get a similar time.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Option 2.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Zinfidel wrote:
I agree that following the standard template for AC speedruns is a good idea. Gives a baseline for comparison. It is a little unfortunate though because the OoB glitches can be fairly amusing to watch, or quite surprising even.
You don't necessarily have to follow the exact ruleset of the RTA community if a more entertaining TAS could be created by following a different one that allows OOB.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
[07:14:45] <MemoryTAS> the real math challenge was the friends we made along the way
[07:14:51] <SpikeOldie_> Those them words.
[07:15:32] <Masterjun> the real math challenge is making friends along the way ?
[07:15:49] <SpikeOldie_> the real math challenge is making friends
[07:16:10] <Masterjun> ouw
[07:20:08] <Masterjun> can't wait for the tutorial series, How to make friends and derivatives
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
electricslide wrote:
That does not seem to be consensus here. Consensus seems to share my opinion that this movie was not given a fair shake so that people could watch it first before you folks all levelled your criticisms at technickle. Why not wait a day to see how it's received? That would be reasonable to me. Y'all were up almost right behind the submission, which to me indicates prior issues between you and this contributor.
Where is this consensus that agrees with you? I don't see any posts agreeing with you as such.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
feos wrote:
Memory wrote:
So this game essentially composes of multiple events. Performing poorly in some events like the first two allow you to end them quicker. In a couple of others, completing them quickly is considered performing them well. However, no matter how well you perform, the game doesn't appear to treat it any differently. You always move on to the next round. If you lose in the final jousting event, the only difference is that the word lose appears and you get less score. You then reappear in the skate shop same as usual. According to the movie rules:
Where applicable, the movie must reach an ending screen that positively signifies a game is finished successfully. Reaching a game-over screen is not considered beating the game. If a game shows the same ending screen regardless of success or failure, reaching it is not considered successful completion.
Is this completion?
You could say this movie completes all new content according to endless games rules, but is this completion if the game does not care about how well you do in the slightest?
Individual events (Downhill and Jam) certainly can be considered non-trivial in that they have a clear goal: complete as quickly as possible. Compete all does not have such a clear goal.
How poor does performance have to be to end those 2 first levels ASAP? How much faster does it end them compared to this movie? Regarding the last level, I'd argue that the game is indicating that you failed to complete it.
"Worse" performance ends the first level slower. The goal of the first level is to rack up as much points as possible within 10 passes across the center of the half pipe. This movie ends this level as quickly as possible by making small jumps that don't earn much score. It's possible to bail enough times that you end the level but don't gain any score, but this is slower. The second level is completed seemingly as poorly as it is allowed (minimal height on the jump and then ends the level by jumping off their board on the other side.
In general, if all levels are optional and some of them are too trivial to fastest-complete, they can be excluded from an any% movie that just plays the levels sensible to speedrun. This comes from the fact that having all levels as optional makes them all kinda separate modes, and those can have individual branches, yet we prefer to have an all-in-one movie for those. And some modes don't make sense in a speedrun, so they wouldn't become branches, therefore they wouldn't make sense in an all-in-one movie either.
Then there can be a branch that tries to maximize the overall score as long as there's no other way to define competitive full completion for this game, so that might play "complete all".
The minigames can be accessed separately but this movie chooses to partake in the "compete all" mode which forces you to do all of them back to back.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
electricslide wrote:
My other response is this, if you find his attempt substandard, feel free to submit your own, better TAS in full on the timeline that you're demanding that he do it. If you can't, well, then. Easy to criticize hard to do. And no, a 'single level' submission won't cut it.
You do not get to decide this. A single level submission can cut it if it aptly demonstrates that sloppy play is present throughout an entire submission.
Additionally, we point out potential mistakes, but give a chance for the author to potentially explain these spots. There might be a reason for them that we don't know. This knowledge would be shared amongst the greater audience and can be taken advantage of by somebody who wants to take a look into this game somewhere down the line. If what we spot is truly a mistake, there might be a chance for the author to easily fix what we point out. Either way, this leads to better TASes and can only come about through communication. You are actively discouraging criticism and thus communication. You are discouraging the creation of better TASes.
EDIT: I'd like to point out the following:
electricslide wrote:
Wow, not one, but two, but three calling birds shitting on this movie.
Nobody had even said the movie was bad or even should be rejected prior to your post. There were places pointed out where it seemingly lost time to its predecessor, but that does not strictly make the movie bad. There was a criticism of a decision made by the author in regards to when to submit this improvement but that is not directly a criticism of the movie itself, let alone "shitting on it". Please explain to me how the posts above yours were shitting on the movie.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Alternatively the TAS mode might be too trivial to accept which might also result in a warning.
Avoiding usage of tools for an arbitrary reason is frowned upon when making a submission.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
FilipeTales wrote:
If i submit my own 0 rerecords TAS, will I be banned?
Not for submitting a 0 rerecords TAS, though I would certainly have questions about how optimal it is and being extremely suboptimal can result in a warning.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
DrD2k9 wrote:
Memory wrote:
Is this completion?
You could say this movie completes all new content according to endless games rules, but is this completion if the game does not care about how well you do in the slightest?
Individual events (Downhill and Jam) certainly can be considered non-trivial in that they have a clear goal: complete as quickly as possible. Compete all does not have such a clear goal.
Can losing an event that is only intended to be 'beaten' and isn't time based actually be considered as 'completing' it?
It's more of a 'participated-in' status instead of 'completed'.
Sure, losing may be the fastest way to show the content, but I'd argue that only losing in such a competition event doesn't really count as 'completion'.
Even if the game ultimately doesn't care how you perform in the task presented; the general assumption can be made that the game still expects you to try to succeed in that task. Thus losing intentionally isn't 'completing' the task presented.
EDIT: This would really only apply to the last stage for this game. My comment was more generalized and not specific to this game.
The first two modes of this game are done satisfactorily for a fast finish.
As presented, this final stage is good as well.
EDIT#2: Regarding completion of this game: If the two poorly performed events are the beginning aren't included because they don't have a clear completion goal, the run wouldn't show all unique content of the game. Therefore, even though the game doesn't care how poorly they are done, they are necessary for a 'full-completion' run of this game. These events, as presented, still appear optimized for time.
The only other option would be to allow multiple publications of individual events as 'complete' runs (which in my opinion, isn't full completion of the game).
My question essentially comes down to the section of the rules defining games which have achievable goals. Is simply ending the gameplay segments as quickly as possible the same thing as completing them? As you pointed out it's not "losing them" but it's not clearly winning them either. Typically in a video game you play it well to progress further into them but here progression happens regardless of performance. That signals to me that "progression" seems like a trivial goal.
I am not against accepting this kind of run despite feeling that a score oriented run would be more interesting, but I would like clarification on a rather ambiguous section of the rules.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
link_7777 wrote:
Spikestuff wrote:
Radiant wrote:
If I understand correctly, there is no new content after stage 29. So wouldn't that be a suitable endpoint for the TAS, per our movie rules?
Yes, I don't believe we actually have a TAS (well besides this one) that actually ends on a kill screen.
If a Judge sees fit and if link_7777 agrees it might turn into a case where this movie can be truncated to the ending loop if going for kill screen serves as an "issue".
Anyone can correct me on this one (especially if the rules changed).
On the movie rules page under Games without a clear ending the "kill screen" bullet is above the "no new content" bullet
I do not believe suitable end points for games without clear endings are listed in any particular order.
EDIT: It was pointed out to me that the Judge guidelines suggest asking the author to play more if they chose an earlier point in the list. I'm not sure this is necessarily the best course of action if a later point features nearly identical play.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
So this game essentially composes of multiple events. Performing poorly in some events like the first two allow you to end them quicker. In a couple of others, completing them quickly is considered performing them well. However, no matter how well you perform, the game doesn't appear to treat it any differently. You always move on to the next round. If you lose in the final jousting event, the only difference is that the word lose appears and you get less score. You then reappear in the skate shop same as usual. According to the movie rules:
Where applicable, the movie must reach an ending screen that positively signifies a game is finished successfully. Reaching a game-over screen is not considered beating the game. If a game shows the same ending screen regardless of success or failure, reaching it is not considered successful completion.
Is this completion?
You could say this movie completes all new content according to endless games rules, but is this completion if the game does not care about how well you do in the slightest?
Individual events (Downhill and Jam) certainly can be considered non-trivial in that they have a clear goal: complete as quickly as possible. Compete all does not have such a clear goal.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
The contents of the improvement excited me much more than the size of the improvement.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
I kinda liked it even outside the framewar :<
voted yes
EDIT: In response to Mike above: kinda? If you press A right before you land on an enemy on the last stage, you bounce higher. Routing out the jumps in that level was tricky.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Added encode.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
