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Maru wrote:
What do we consider as gameplay? This TAS is going to force us as a community to reevaluate this concept all together.
In this submission's case, all of the work is done at the title screen. Do we consider what is being done there as gameplay?
I'm honestly not sure why it matters what is and isn't considered gameplay.
Note that TASVideos follows a strict timing rule for most TASes. It is from power-on until the last input. SMB3 follows the standard timing guideline. However, this is not true for the SMB3 RTA commnity. For the record, the RTA community for SMB3 has decided that the time starts when the start button is pressed to load the World map.
That makes sense for the RTA community given that it makes timing much more convenient for them. I do not see how this is really relevant to a TAS setting where from power on, we are able to control the game at a much greater level. If there were portions of the TAS that were not timed, said portions could be abused to reduce the time spent later in the TAS. An example of this is RNG: without starting time at power on, one could wait indefinitely to get the RNG to be whatever one desires. Given the amount of competition reducing this time in some games, this seems silly to me to even talk about.
Now the question is, based on those timing guidelines, which guideline better constitutes gameplay?
This is not the first time when a game end glitch TAS that does not make use of a controller input payload to finish the game was obsoleted by one that does. The most recent example is Tompa's ALTTP game end glitch run, which was obsoleted by fmp, total, and Yuzuhara_3 using a four frame controller payload. Another example that comes to mind was Masterjun's SMW2:YI game end glitch TAS, which used a payload in 2-2 with multiple controllers to obsolete the old warp glitch TAS that used a glitch to warp straight to the last level of the game. While the same warp glitch was used in both TASes (Masterjun used the warp glitch to go to 2-2 instead of the autoscrolling 6-8), one of them used a controller input payload to reach the credits while the other did not.
What separates those two TASes from this one is that some setup past the title screen was required to get the game end glitch to work. There were gameplay improvements in both TASes, coming from either a new route or better optimization.
That brings me to my next question, which is: Does this TAS have any gameplay improvements compared to the published run?
To answer that question, you will need to consider the first question too.
Yes it absolutely features "gameplay improvements" given that the route no longer contains what we would previously consider gameplay. Additionally, there have absolutely been cases where we accepted improvements that are completely irrelevant to traditional concepts of "gameplay". #5876: MrWint & Omnigamer's A2600 Dragster in 00:08.39 improved on its predecessor by using the bottom player, starting the game a frame faster, but contains no actual gameplay improvements as such.
This next question is unrelated to the others. If this submission is accepted, should it obsolete the published run based on the fact that the published run was thoroughly outperformed in terms of time?
At TASVideos and especially with games like SMB3, new categories of games have to show significant differences from the existing categories in order to be accepted. This brings up the next question. Is this type of game end glitch significantly different from the published game end glitch TAS to warrant the creation of a new category? This is relatively unheard of for game end glitch TASes, but we all have to be open to possibilities.
There is precedent for this (see Gen 1 Pokemon). This is more audience interest related however and I personally don't have much of an opinion.
Another question does come to mind looking at this TAS from a viewer's perspective. Since the ending is almost instant, do viewers see some similarity or resemblance to entering a password in-game to skip to the credits? No passwords are used in this TAS, but whether people find it similar to using one is a question that needs to be answered. I could see arguments that any sort of game end glitch could look like using a password to skip major portions of a game. However, it is worth mentioning that prior to the credits, Mario's face is not seen in any way, shape, or form. All a viewer sees is the curtains prior to reaching the credits.
Honestly, I don't really see it as that much different from other ACE runs. [2609] SNES Kirby Super Star "game end glitch" by Masterjun in 00:23.03 just gets to the fastest ladder possible, and presses up + down simultaneously to achieve ACE. I don't really see much of a difference aside from the fact that this method is much faster. This is really just the logical conclusion of ACE TASes as a whole. It's not like the developers intended for you to do this.
While I personally find this TAS not particularly interesting to watch, I feel it would be arbitrary to prevent it from reaching Vault at the very least. What one considers gameplay to be is subjective and the point of Vault is to avoid subjectivity.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Alyosha wrote:
So it doesn't work on console currently? I don't think this run should be accepted unless it actually works on console. This is a purely technical demonstration so I think it should be held to a standard of correctness where it either is right or its technical foul. I can work on anything on the emulation side that needs fixing. (I guess it's also possible that the problem is on the botting side, but that has seemed pretty robust in the past unless there is something unique here that is breaking it.)
Depends on why it doesn't work on console. If in theory it should work on console with some slightly different inputs it should be acceptable according to the precedent set by Kirby Super Star.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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AIVV73 wrote:
10 for technical
0 for entertaiment
this should be uploaded to userfiles tbh
We have a tier for movies that fail to entertain the audience. Whether or not you feel this run is entertaining, there is no reason it shouldn't be submitted.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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There wasn't enough TAS to be entertained. From a pure viewing experience, it was pretty much the same as if I searched for the ending cutscene to Super Mario Bros. 3. Voted no.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Personally I feel that while it wasn't particularly repetitive, there wasn't enough there that stood out to me about the run besides the speed.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Welcome Maru and good luck!
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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The key thing here is how long do you think this update would take?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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GaRan wrote:
Great run!
One question: why don't you choose C to start the game instead of A?
It's actually faster because upon selecting a file there is an animation where the file information moves to the top of the screen. File A does not have to move at all whereas C being at the bottom has to move quite a bit.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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The8bitbeast wrote:
Issue I have with this boss is if you add it, what's to say you shouldn't do several runs with several characters in an "all bosses" run to actually fight all bosses
The fact that it's specifically "Maria All Bosses" covers that last bit.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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feos wrote:
I'm also prepared for tons of downvotes for including that boss fight. Yep, I've seen some things over the years, I won't be surprised at all.
Indeed, I personally also expect the reaction to be fairly split over inclusion vs exclusion.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I wasn't entirely sure what you meant when you asked me about this. I didn't realize that there was a unique screen after you pressed the button. In that case according to the Judge Guidelines, we generally prefer the submission to include said input, but this is not required. Please let me know your preferences.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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TASVideoAgent wrote:
The Ending of this TAS was in question. Basically, the credits, or the ending, was reached. However! The cycle around to see the next no game playing screen, can only be reached by pressing the fire button upon reading the "Success" message. The inputs provided beat the game, but for the publishing...it might require an alternate BK2 to help complete the video and show all the content the game has to offer. You may add it for this purpose, but I leave that up to the judges or publisher.
I was totally confused when I initially read this but basically pressing fire at the "You have succeeded" screen will cause the ship to fly away and when that finishes it displays some additional text before returning back to the title screen without any additional input.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I just checked and the PAL version was able to be improved in the same way.
Can someone update the submission file with mine: User movie #56061314166218832
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Do you want to try to find additional improvements, or would you like to use the updated file for the improvement and add me as coauthor? I will drop my claim over the submission if the latter.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Is there any particular reason Player 2 is used instead of Player 1?
EDIT: Improvement by 14 frames, mostly by not slowing down as much and using a better jump pattern on stage 10: User movie #56061314166218832
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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So I talked to feos about it and we essentially came to the understanding that NTSC is preferred as long as the game runs correctly for it and the rules have been updated accordingly.
DrD2k9, any objections to me updating the submission with the NTSC file?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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The fact that it's actually faster to do Gravitron is really dumb. The fact that you can get to the end from Gravitron is really dumb. This TAS is really dumb.
I like really dumb, Yes vote.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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When I did my judgment of the game end glitch run of Yellow, there were two things I kept in mind. First was the rules regarding versions. Secondly was the precedent that versions of the same generation of Pokemon could obsolete each other in the save glitch branch. I had to essentially determine at what point would the differences between versions be considered significant enough to warrant separate branches. I felt that in the short game end glitch branch, the differences between versions were minor.
Now while I have yet to watch this run, from my understanding of Gen 1 Pokemon, the differences between versions in a full game run such as this would be much more pronounced. There are a number of different fights etc. Given that different bosses and levels are mentioned in the rules as an example of when they should be separate branches, I believe this would be the point at which they should be considered separate games.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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DrD2k9 wrote:
Regarding duping items: Wasn't it discussed somewhere else that duping doesn't qualify as 100% even if it causes a game to show 100% in the credits? The argument being that the all items had to be collected from their proper locations for a 100% run instead of simply being duped into existence.
My memory doesn't work near as well as some others here; but IIRC, it was in the discussion of one of the Zelda games.
That is of course correct but habreno also indicated that his question was in fact rhetorical so there's no point responding to it.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Habreno wrote:
To quote from the Any% thread:
Memory wrote:
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
You are correct I just want someone that Votes No to give a reason. It is perfectly fine to Vote No everyone has an opinion. I just feel like its someone who just hates Super Metroid and didn't even watch this TAS.
If they HAD to give an opinion why would the poll be anonymous to begin with. Also again there are very valid reasons to not like this specific Super Metroid TAS. For example they may be fans of less glitchy prior TASes.
And just to remind you, that thread had seven pages (on my posts/page count, IDK about yours) and multiple people expressing the same viewpoint. You can call me out all you want but my opinion is not alone here.
To be fair, in that quote I was actually referring to Superjumps etc. The glitched graphics are handled by the secondary encode well enough. The whole point of the secondary encode is to help people to be entertained by the movie that might otherwise be distracted by the glitched graphics.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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theripper999 wrote:
First I would like an edit of the post to say that in order to run the verification file you need the DeSmuME-0.9.9 for x86 not x64. x64 would not work on my Windows 10. Just for future reference.
x64 worked just fine for me.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I decided to take another look at the second boss and found a trick that could also be applied to the first boss:
Link to video
So basically there's two parts to your attack when you attack in midair. When you first start to attack in midair it acts like a normal headbutt like while on the ground and attack to your side. Then you flip and attack below you and this does double damage. The trick is to hit with both parts of the attack and deal 3 damage instead of 2.
In order to do this you pretty much need to perform the attack at the corner of the bosses hitbox and this results in slightly slower attacking but saves time in the long run. Very precise to do though.
EDIT: Thankfully the game is hex friendly so I didn't have to redo any other stages. I will work some more on boss 2 though, that one is really tricky.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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One site I checked implied that cub had less levels but the others I checked mentioned no such thing, thanks for the confirmation.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I would like somebody who actually knows what the differences are to answer, speculation is not helpful.
I could play through the game and check myself but the game is awful to control so I'd like to avoid it.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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After having watched it myself, the run seems very repetitive, using a single glitch over and over to win quickly. It was also very difficult for me to comprehend, I only vaguely got it by looking at the submission notes. I definitely feel more time should be taken to properly assess this run.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
