Posts for dwangoAC


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micro500 wrote:
I disagree with your idea of focusing on telling a story, and instead think we should talk about our hardware implementation and let the story tell itself.
Fair enough, and I've certainly been the first to defend that this *is* technically challenging, it's just that the focus should be on what we're able to do with the game and not this one little nuance of technicality. Yes, the story should tell itself, although I suspect there will be a decent amount of interactivity.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Weatherton wrote:
dwangoAC wrote:
Since there seems to be such a vehement resentment of this technique, should the existing run(s) be placed in Gruefood?
At the very least, I do not think it deserves a star. I also think a TAS that maintains some dependency between the drawings and the answers for every answer should obsolete the published run. As for unpublishing runs, my understanding is that this is nearly impossible to do (as in the site is not capable of functionally doing it).
Whoa now, hang on, we should *not* be removing the star from this run! Seriously, this echo chamber is getting really bad. Consider an outside visitor who comes to the site and wants to see entertaining runs - Brain Age is most definitely entertaining, although if you wanted to rate it lower on a technical difficulty basis you're certainly welcome to. If anything, this debate continues to fuel my desire to get a tier for games that aren't about speed and are instead about doing fun things, playing around, creating new works of art, doing unusual things, etc. At the very least, have a look at the published run's ratings and you'll see a very clear trend. New evidence that the run employed these glitches to accomplish this entertaining result should never fly in the face of 44 ratings amounting to an entertainment score of 8.5. I'd still continue to assert that the use of these glitches is absolutely worthy of a high technical rating as well, even if some people feel "cheated" by what they allow the game to become.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Warp wrote:
dwangoAC wrote:
the existing runs use aspects of these glitches under debate already and thus has already succeeded in fooling all of us.
If a currently published Brain Age TAS uses the described technique of drawing the answer off-screen, rather than fully using the visible picture for this, then that's certainly a disappointment, at least for me.
Yeah... that's what micro500 found, it was in his first reply:
micro500 wrote:
I believe the basis for the published run is the idea that the OCR in the game is so loose/broken that you can draw a picture and the game will accept it as the correct answer. You would probably think somehow the game is finding the answer in what you drew. Watching the run with that expectation leaves me entertained, because I enjoy seeing the game being broken in that way. For some of the answers that is exactly what happens, but for others I see that he added extra taps (both in and out of the drawing area), and also traced over some of his old work to trick the OCR.
In retrospect, I guess I just never assumed that the published run was always embedding the answer visibly and thus I came in with different expectations. I don't think you should think less of the run, though - yes, it used a different method than the one you thought it did but if anything I think that's interesting in and of itself. :)
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Warp wrote:
People are not impressed by a TAS drawing a picture. People are impressed by how a seemingly unrelated picture is interpreted by the program as the correct answer.
Yes, some people will be impressed that a seemingly unrelated picture will be interpreted by the program as correct, *exactly* the same way the existing run does it (more on that later). Having said that, I have no intention of using the Brain Age TAS to impress people with our fancy OCR, I plan to use the Brain Age TAS to tell a story as described in the script micro500 wrote as linked from the first post (spoilers). The really cool technical elements will be weaved in but are not the focus of this particular portion of the TAS block.
Warp wrote:
Please explain to me (because nobody seems to have done that yet) what exactly is wrong with my suggestion, ie. have pictures being interpreted as the correct answer, and then as the last couple of questions have a blank picture interpreted as the correct answer (explaining that the answer is being drawn off-screen). What is the problem you are seeing in this idea? Why does it seem to be such an unthinkable thing? Please explain.
There is nothing at all wrong with your suggestion (although I do wish you had been a bit less aggressive in how you made it, but I digress... :) You, micro500 and I all agree that we can and should answer questions with a variety of techniques. Having said that, I've tried to make this point three times now and for whatever reason this keeps getting glossed over - the existing runs use aspects of these glitches under debate already and thus has already succeeded in fooling all of us. Since there seems to be such a vehement resentment of this technique, should the existing run(s) be placed in Gruefood? I think that would be a travesty - yes, there is a lot more novelty in the OCR finding the correct answer in the visible image but I seriously doubt that the GDQ viewers will ever care or even notice because the focus of what we're doing is on the story and not this one very minor technical nuance that only matters to those of us in this echo chamber. :) I think we've more or less come to a conclusion in this thread that for the purposes of the GDQ event we will employ multiple methods but the question remains what to do with this run after we're done - there's still no way for us to submit it on the site, and I honestly think that's the biggest thing we still need to debate and work out how to handle.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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I personally feel we have an echo chamber here and that the only people who care about whether we use these two combined glitches at the same time is us. My point remains that we have destroyed the game so thoroughly that we can do whatever we want - why would we *ever* want to hide this? Why would we want to artificially handcuff ourselves as if we were sorry for what we had done to the game? Having said that, if we decide to go the extra mile to make the run work without these glitches, I assume the consequence is the artwork will be less impressive to look at but will be more impressive technically. To me, I'd error on the side of better art - after all, we've literally reduced this game to the point that it's a series of drawing pad sheets and we're effectively exhibiting art that serves a purpose in and of itself (albeit using a quite absurd method). The art itself *IS* the point because at that point it's the artwork that gets the attention, not the game! This is probably where I branch out from others here at TASVideos. I look at the site as being part destroying games, part art, or using games to create art, and I think we ignore or devalue the art aspects far too often. Warp, it is clear to me that you don't find any point in a run that is purely focused on art, and that's fine, there are lots of runs on the site that meet your needs. I'd like to have a way to distinguish runs that *are* primarily about art from ones that aren't to make your life easier. Warp, quoting micro500 about the existing Brain Age run, "I see that he added extra taps (both in and out of the drawing area)". The currently published run thus also uses some aspects of these tricks. Do you feel it should be sent to gruefood for this? For my part, I think [1734] DS Brain Age "playaround" by Ryuto in 06:33.66 should never have obsoleted [1569] DS Brain Age "playaround" by Ryuto in 04:08.10 - both are playarounds, both are primarily about art, and both should be left to stand on their own merits of being interesting to view from an artistic (not speed) perspective. Again, I realize I am likely in the minority here as I have repeatedly shown myself to be an inclusionist but it's the only solution that seems sane to me.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Warp wrote:
I don't think using the off-screen trick is suitable either for any marathon showcase nor any publication at tasvideos.org.
I could not possibly disagree more, on all sides, and I'm quite passionate about this. First, for GDQ events we do some really technically challenging things - for this upcoming Brain Age pitch, it will involve live capture of the screen, live OCR processing to determine the question being asked, adapting an arbitrary image consisting of nothing but line drawings *on the fly* to come up with the correct answer, and then sending it back to the DS by hijacking the touchscreen. On top of all of that, we're even able to do the equivalent of miscalibrating the screen (something a human could do easily) to allow us to tap out-of-bounds, and we abuse that ability to have complete and total control over what we draw. I find this *very* impressive, and I'm amazed at what xy2_ has discovered in the last week. I think everyone in this thread is biased by the existing Brian Age run made when this trick had not yet been discovered and thus now that we have the ability to draw anything we want it's seen as cheap. That's fine, I'm OK with that insinuation, but saying that we shouldn't use this amazing discovery at GDQ is ridiculous to me. We do occasionally resort to some small amount of stage magic at GDQ events (the camera didn't work like it should have, although it *could* have :) but I don't think this is stage magic, merely a very clever exploit. Downplaying its existence entirely won't help us, but I agree that explaining it all right up front is also a bad idea; we want people to see things unfold, see the answers becoming subtly more wrong, and then get to a point of being outright completely wrong, and to that end I'm fine with using the methods of the existing Brain Age TAS for at least a few panels, but to not take advantage of this massive discovery seems like being intentional Luddites to me. Regarding publication on the site, we've long wondered how to showcase things we do at GDQ's on the site. There is no place to put these works yet which is something Nach has made a proposal to to resolve by adding a technical showcase tier. I feel strongly that the existing Brain Age TAS should *not* be obsoleted by anything we do at a GDQ, but I also feel strongly that runs that could each be considered a work of art in their own regard should be able to stand equally on the site. This is the best possible type of game to have this discussion about - now that these discoveries have been made, Brain Age is literally just a game where you can make art by drawing similar to what Alden did with Mario Paint and even similar to the way that Otocky in music maker mode or something like Electroplankton provides ways to make music if you wanted to make a TAS of it. Each result is a work of art that should not obsolete the previous work of art because it's no longer about speed, and I think it's time to have that discussion again. Thoughts?
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Zowayix wrote:
One idea I had is that if getting Family Feud console-verified for AGDQ 2016 won't be feasible, then play it on emulator during SGDQ 2016 instead. Part of the reason that some saw SGDQ 2015 as less exciting was because it was possible to see all the runs beforehand and know exactly what was going to happen, not just the fact that the runs weren't all console-verified. Showing a non-console-verified movie, but making it something new, would still greatly up the entertainment value (adding Twitch-specific jokes would also help in this regard).
I don't disagree with you in practice, but there are some things to consider. First, watch this: Link to video You can also see the original movie file as well - thanks go to TASEditor for working on this and having a great attitude when we discovered it didn't sync reliably. If you think it's a good idea to show that (and I don't because I find some of the jokes a bit over the top / too mature for the venue), then we have to consider whether it's a better pitch than some of the other ideas and there's just so much dead time while waiting for the answers to appear that I think we'd be better off with other choices. The other challenge with Family Feud is we already pitched it and then didn't show it (for AGDQ 2015), so my preference is to just not do this again. We are somewhat bound by the submissions process for GDQ's to give at least some hint as to what we'll be doing to appease the selection committee so completely hiding the list of games likely isn't possible but I definitely understand your point. We can certainly do mystery games again like we did with SMB on SMW. Thanks for the feedback!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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z1mb0bw4y wrote:
From there it could start giving either blatantly false answers or integrals and limits and the like for the next 20-30 or so.
I don't know if I would want to do quite that many responses with bad math but I would love to get some very complex bit of math (ais523 to the rescue) with all kinds of symbols that at the end is the correct answer, and leave it on screen long enough for people to be able to get a screenshot (I think leaving the art on the screen for a few seconds is important - there is no intent whatsoever of getting a good age result as that goal would severely limit other creative things we could be doing, but I digress). I think it would be awesome if we could get some *really* complicated math that would take a bit of noodling for someone to sort out, because there's a good chance that in a crowd of 100k+ people someone will be able to do it and might even write about it.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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marzojr wrote:
dwangoAC wrote:
...Where did your quote come from, by the way?
My own head, actually...
That is some good stuff - you should consider editing the wiki and creating / updating pages on this topic. The better we can explain this kind of stuff to new users, the better off the site is. Thanks for the effort!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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TheAxeMan wrote:
Now if we allow for setting up a savegame then I bet we can work something out with either FF1 or FF2 stairs glitch.
Either this or not use Final Fantasy - I'd love to represent Final Fantasy in some way but I confess that the idea of grinding the stairs for 5 minutes seems like a really bad idea. I'm totally fine with using an existing movie, the fact that it's newgame+ is a bigger deal to us than it is to viewers who will be astounded more by the chaining than how Final Fantasy itself was compromised. Thanks for the info, hopefully there's still a way to make Final Fantasy work out.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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z1mb0bw4y wrote:
I do DEFINITELY like the idea of super scribblenauts a lot more. I feel like we'd need either a romhack where all you need is to summon things, or a bot designed to complete the level once an item is summoned. Since the DS bot is already being worked on, it could even be console verified for extra swag.
The idea of using Super Scribblenauts is *really* appealing to me, in part because there's a full run that's hilarious we can use for reference, great submission notes with good information on the game mechanics, a full word groups dictionary, the game is fully stylus-controllable, I own the physical cartridge, and we already have progress on a DS bot thanks to micro500. From an execution standpoint, I think we would have pre-recorded input that gets Max (the character you play as) into various situations and allows Twitch to fill in the word of what he needs to create, mad libs style. For bonus points, we can take words we know Twitch will type such as Kappa, type them on the screen and then erase them and troll Twitch by creating something that is the exact opposite of whatever they typed. ResidentSleeper? You just created espresso! The possibilities are endless... I'm super stoked on this idea.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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z1mb0bw4y wrote:
While we're on this sort of topic, and assuming brain age won't be the entire block for AGDQ, how possible would it be to do a Twitch Plays Family Feud?
Family Feud was a proposal for AGDQ 2015 and we even made a (somewhat distasteful) TAS of it but we discovered that the game has random lag or some other behavior that makes inputting answers at full speed impossible. We may be able to work around this problem by holding buttons for multiple frames (it would slow down text entry but not unbearably so), but I still fear that it's a poor choice because the game forces you to wait so long between each question. The general concept is interesting and we *do* still have all of the Python that micro500, twm, TheAxeMan and others made for parsing out bad words. It would theoretically be possible to come up with a set of inputs that navigate from one letter to another in Family Feud (it'd be complex, you'd have to figure out a lot of combinations or reset after every letter to handle the routing of how to get from, say, E to N or whatnot). I'm more inclined to use a different game, possibly Super Scribblenauts. Imagine the insanity that Twitch Chat would create... This idea is growing on me the more I think about Super Scribblenauts, we could have a 5 second voting window during which the most commonly repeated word is typed and see if Twitch chat was even capable of completing, say, the tutorial... :) This idea requires more thought and some testing, I'm most intrigued.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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marzojr wrote:
...By removing all unpredictability from the player, you remove all unpredictability from these games.
Hm. Might be a bit too technical and verbose.
That text is definitely a bit too deep but yes, I think I could do a better job of explaining the general concept. Where did your quote come from, by the way? Just curious.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Warepire wrote:
Personally, I find the FFII Stairs glitch run extremely boring without a RAM display, so I would prefer a different game, though not sure which right now.
Noted. The boring nature of the glitch is my number one reason I'm not overly thrilled with that particular proposal unless the glitch can be done very quickly, but at the same time the honest truth is we're at the mercy of whatever games we can find exploits for. My hope is that the entire process takes about an hour and shows interesting games broken in interesting ways, preferably different interesting ways, but hope and reality are two different things. :) We'll obviously have to make some compromises along the way and there's the very real possibility that one console requires a stubborn portion of grinding but we should be able to distract around those portions somehow.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Raiscan wrote:
I would personally like to see a same-input, multiple games run. Perhaps the Megaman quad run?
I'm not saying no but this is likely infeasible to do this with console verification for a wide range of reasons, namely that most of those games haven't yet been console-verified at all and it would be neigh impossible to get all of the consoles to start at the same time (although I've considered trying it with a power strip). I have two NES consoles and I'm willing to try something but I don't see it working out as well as it sounds.
endrift wrote:
An idea I had while talking to RGamma was that the game for a race could be announced very early during SGDQ, giving people a whole 5 or 6 days to shape up an entry. This would allow for a longer game, and potentially more quality entries.
I'm not opposed but this would definitely make it a lot less intense. I agree that doing this would allow for longer games but I don't know if that would make the best contest and I suspect it would encourage people to band together into teams, which is not a bad thing but something to consider; we could *encourage* teamwork, I suppose... Let's keep this on the table - thanks for the suggestion.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Post subject: SGDQ 2015 involvement costs transparency report
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I am very thankful to those who helped me get to SGDQ 2015. Here's a quick recap of my projected costs, as copied from the first post: Equipment / games purchases (projected): $50 SGDQ 2015 fee: $40 Airfare: $437 Accommodations: $406 Dining out / groceries (projected): $150 Total (projected): $1,083 Here are my actual expenses: Equipment / games purchases: $54.44 (Raspberry Pi 2 Model B+ used for Sonic Advance = $44.44, Ikaruga = $10) AGDQ 2015 fexe: $40 Airfare: $437 Accommodations: $406 Parking / shuttle / tolls: $71.83 Dining out / groceries: $77.63 Subtotal: $1,086.90 (! - my initial guess was *very* close) Giving: $255 Total: $1,341.90 I was able to capitalize on free breakfast at SGDQ 2015 to help keep food costs *way* down compared to my estimate (and those costs even include paying for meals for others on a couple of occasions). The food savings were entirely eaten up by parking, shuttle fees, and tolls that I didn't predict properly so it ended up being a wash. My wife and I did far better at giving at SGDQ 2015 in part because my wife was at home and was able to donate a few times. Full disclosure - $20 of the giving portion was to a random church I found that was doing a donation-based Sunday pot-luck at which I probably got $5 worth of food but it makes more sense to put that here (it was an interesting experience, feel free to ask me). Overall, I feel expenses worked out quite well for this trip and I'm happy with how everything turned out so close to what I expected. If you have any questions at all please feel free to contact me. Again, my deepest appreciation goes to those who helped make this trip possible. You helped raise over $35k!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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feos wrote:
Question: do we have enough speed for data going from NES controller port to successfully and efficiently provide payload to younger consoles?
Bare minimum, we can put the first NES controller port in Multitap mode which would be four bytes per frame, or to think of it in SNES terms that would be enough to provide input for two controllers per frame. This would be a horrible minimum, however; that datarate equates to 4*60=240 bytes per second which would severely limit the kinds of downstream payloads we could send. Hopefully we can do something similar to Pokemon Plays Twitch where we polled 8 times a frame by taking control of the latch pin manually - the mechanics would be different because NES generally only reads one byte per controller rather than the SNES's two but that would still get us 4*8*60=1,920 bytes per frame, and my hope is we could get it even higher and shoot for 4*16*60=3,840 bytes per frame. I anticipate the NES payload will be low color, simple graphic blocks / tiles appearing showing what buttons are being pressed but the payload will need to scale down to fit the CPU cycles available after handling payload forwarding. Much experimentation here is still required.
Warepire wrote:
Like finding an ACE glitch in one game, and programming it to complete another game.... Not sure how feasible it would be to accomplish this, depending on available consoles, length of the game, and how deterministic it is when run on console.
I think this can be substantially parallelized - we need people to find total control exploits for NES, SNES, N64, Game Boy Advance, and Game Boy (or alternately, if we instead loop back to an NES game, figure out how to get just Game Boy Advance's Final Fantasy stairs glitch to work so we can start with NES FF and end with GBA FF). In essence, we'll just start with whatever end is easiest and build from there, or we might discover we have to bridge two sets of two consoles or something. With over 18 months to go to AGDQ 2017 we have as of right now plenty of time to determine what's feasible and what isn't. Thoughts?
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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feos wrote:
What about separating mind-blowing and races? The former are already set up for Adgqs, while the latter might be left for Sgdqs. Some kind of a tradition if you will, reducing the preparation chaos a bit.
I'm willing to go either way on this, but my hard requirement more or less is that AGDQ is where we do "big" projects, SGDQ is for things that require less time. If a race is easy to organize for both I see no problem with doing it in both places but I definitely understand your point.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Nach wrote:
If you want to pass me a zip file, I'll host the zip file on the site. Users will have to go through the entries themselves though.
OK, here they are: http://acbit.net/static/StreemerzMovies.zip Thanks!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Post subject: AGDQ 2017 planning and feedback thread
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If you do not want to know what is being planned, do not read this thread. I've discovered no one outside TASVideos actually reads the forums and GDQ events now require more manpower than before, hence the more open approach to planning. Each GDQ has its own forum thread. Updated plan as of the start of AGDQ 2017: The NES Classic is a bit of a mess as it filters out things like pressing left on one frame and then right on the next frame so it's really difficult to get anything super accurate or complex. In general, the NES Classic is *not* very good at all, and it's the kind of thing TASBot would look down on for not being perfect. So, uh, we're going to kill two birds with one stone - Since the NES Classic has 30 games on it and a subset of those games are available in all territories, we'll pick that subset of games or a smaller subset and do a death tour, playing the game long enough to do a fastest death and hear the death music then move on to the next game by pressing the Home button to get back to the game selection menu. Going this route might sound a bit strange, but it means that if there is a desync, it will "re-synchronize" at the edge of each game. It'll give us an opportunity to quickly cycle through several games with times ranging from 5 seconds to 20 seconds, although more for some really hard to die in games in which case we may have to skip them. The whole thing will take between 7 to 10 minutes. The alternative is to pick some other arbitrary short goal or use a simple game like Galaga to do a complete TAS with very conservative button presses of which would not be very interesting. I personally think the fastest death tour seems more interesting but we'll have to see how it plays out and I'm open to suggestions. Following that, we'll show SMB3 total control and the GeekPwn payload but with AGDQ graphics and different NSF music - the amazing level 1-1 takeover is too good to pass up and most people haven't seen it. We'll transition away from that console and start playing [redacted] which is when things will really get interesting. Fortunately, [redacted] is a very quick hop into complete control and it has the advantage of [redacted] which means we can easily show [redacted]. At one point, we'll allow Twitch Chat to [redacted] which could get kind of crazy. It's going to look like utter randomness because it's Twitch chat but it should still be fun. From there we'll move to LoZ:LttP which is just long enough for some decent commentary, as in, there's some actual gameplay involved (about 3 minutes), and during that time there's all kinds of crazy things going on thanks to work from Tompa. At the end, we'll trigger a glitch at the Sanctuary which will give us total control, and we'll use it to trigger the mirror effect used to change between light and dark worlds. Instead of transitioning to the dark world, we'll instead transition to [redacted] and show [redacted] which will definitely be the highlight. I've made another update with the start-of-event status which you can read here. Old post below: For AGDQ 2017 I'm hoping to really up our game as a site when it comes to raffle prizes. Please consider making something, donating something, or otherwise pitching in for some really good raffle prizes (or one nice prize - suggestions welcome). Take note that submissions are only open from September 4-10 and can be done one at a time, so I plan to do the last one no later than Sept. 9th. Current list of ideas, updated as we discuss and punt some ideas to later GDQ's (now with holes thanks to moving ideas out): Idea #1 Console chaining, but not that chaining Update, 2016-09-03: In the months (years?) since this idea first came up we've tossed around a number of ways to use this kind of ability. During the last month we've experimented with something related that, if we manage to pull it off, will be truly out-of-this-world amazing. This is about the only thing we're going to be quiet about but it will make sense why. The description of this will probably be "mystery game". Idea #2 (added 2016-07-21): N64 shenanigans In the (very possible) event we can't get chaining to work, I'd instead like to focus on an N64 total control, or at least near total control. There are some really interesting options on the table already and some interesting things we could do after gaining total control but much more work is required. (Update, 2016-08-19: Post DEF CON, the craziness level of some of the propositions is now off the charts but we haven't confirmed we can make some of the ideas work so we might have to submit this one as a mystery entrant). Idea #3 (added 2016-07-21): External control We faked taking over a camera during Pokemon Plays Twitch due to being unable to get the serial commands and cabling worked out fast enough, but it's a very intriguing idea to have TASBot, via a game, take over something outside of a console. Suggestions on what that might be are welcome, as I haven't figured it out yet. :) Idea #6 (added 2016-08-19): Mario Kart 64 remaining cup(s) Weatherton is working toward completion of all Mario Kart 64 cups. We may be able to show one or more cups completed, and this will likely be the last time MK64 is showcased. It may or may not make sense to do this for AGDQ 2017 but it should be good entertainment regardless of the timing. Idea #8 (added 2016-08-19): Something involving Pokemon Go We have absolutely no idea what we would do yet. We know it would be cool to do *something*, though... Update, 2016-09-03: With recent litigation from Nintendo we have to be careful how we approach this but we would still like to fit this in in some way. We don't yet know what that looks like. Idea #9 (added 2016-08-19): A TAS on NES Classic Edition (NES Mini) Seriously, this device is just too cute to not do something with. It's hard to say how much of a hit it's going to be, and we clearly won't know for certain if we can even make something happen before the AGDQ 2017 submissions phase passes as the console isn't even slated to come out until November 11th. Ideas include rapidly beating or breaking several games in succession to figuring out a way to escape the confines of a game and do something interesting with the hardware. We... just don't know what we can do yet. Idea #11 (added 2016-09-03): MK64 Weatherton has finished his MK64 run to the point where it can be demoed, although he plans on finishing it further. We'll pitch different categories with different cup choices and work out good commentary and perhaps donation incentives. This will be the last time for a while that we plan to pitch a MK64 run. Updated 2015-08-08: Added list of volunteer positions needed Updated 2016-07-21: Updated to reflect current thinking Updated 2016-08-18: Clarified chaining / virus idea, added a fair number of other ideas Updated 2016-08-21: Added Tetris TGM Updated 2016-09-03: Punted ideas to SGDQ 2017, added MK64, hinted at new "chaining" replacement Updated 2017-01-08: Added current plan and link to start-of-event status
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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If you do not want to know what is being planned, do not read this thread. I've discovered no one outside TASVideos actually reads the forums and GDQ events now require more manpower than before, hence the more open approach to planning. Each GDQ has its own forum thread. (Original post text)SGDQ events are where I hope to do more "basic" TAS'ing, as in, less overt console trickery and slightly less gimmicks with an emphasis of showing the audience what TASing is all about. At this time it is likely we will again do a race but it is unclear what other things will happen for SGDQ 2016. I currently have plans to console-verify a particular run on a 386 but there has been some resistance to this idea so I want to work out what that would look like before I post something more solid. This post will be edited frequently to reflect the current status; I will try my best to include a change history and link to explanatory posts as time progresses. Update, 2016-04-03: As of today https://gamesdonequick.com/submission/all (optionally filter on dwangoAC) shows that SML2 memory tour + pause glitch, TASBot multiplay in the category of SMB 1 + 2 + 3, and VVVVVV all trinkets + glitched run made it in. This means that Super Scribblenauts and NES-Pack did not make it in (*sniff*). We'll try again with both of those as I think they are strong contenders, but I'm overall happy that we yet again received a decent chunk of time, around 45 minutes factoring in non-game runtime presentation. One problem with always pointing people at the submissions page on the GamesDoneQuick.com site is it eventually disappears into history as it is wiped at the start of each event cycle. Here's exactly what I pitched for SGDQ 2016 including the categories for historical reference; I'll likely leave this in the top post for the time being while it's still relevant and later link to Post #430298:
  • NES-Pack by Mothrayas - SDA vs. TASVideos: NES-Pack (http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/NES/NESPack.html) is a 2016 game created by Mothrayas and is inspired by the 1993 DOS game Jetpack. With maze-like levels and a fuel-consuming jetpack, NES-Pack is an accessible choice for some healthy SDA/SRL vs. TASVideos competition. The demo above will be expanded with more levels and released during SGDQ with the winner of a speed TAS competition facing off against a realtime runner who has had plenty of time to routeplan and practice.
  • Super Mario Land 2 memory tour: Few games have glitches as visceral as Mario literally strolling out-of-bounds right through memory locations with individual bytes conveniently represented as various types of blocks. In this run, dwangoAC will briefly wander through this strange place and show how interacting with these blocks has a direct impact on how the game behaves, culminating in a surprise ending. As a donation incentive, a pause glitch can be demonstrated that ends the game in only 41 seconds.
  • TASBot multiplays SMB1, 2, and 3: Super Mario Bros. 1, 2, and 3... simultaneously, using the exact same button presses? That's exactly what this is - as unbelievable as it may sound, TASBot will play two or more games from http://tasvideos.org/2636M.html at the same time using the exact same sequence of button presses. If someone can get an FDS and a copy of Lost Levels to SGDQ we can even make it a quad replay! The SMB1 and SMB3 category video demonstrates a 2:45 setup time and console verification with visualization boards.
  • TASBot plays VVVVVV: There are 20 collectable "Shiny Trinkets" hidden throughout the game. There is also a no death mode which cuts off your gameplay if you die once. There are no known unassisted completions with this combination, but this TAS by Masterjun makes it look easy while simultaneously triggering several graphical glitches. Sure to entertain, this run can be followed up with a donation incentive for the very fast game end glitch run.
  • Twitch plays Super Scribblenauts: Twitch chat interacting in Pokemon Plays Twitch was one of the most memorable moments of AGDQ 2015 and we want to bring back that fun... for a price. This should be a donation incentive or limited to subscribers and will involve Twitch chat directly solving hilarious puzzles in Super Scribblenauts by interacting with a channel bot and creating objects by popular vote.
Original ideas, here for historical purposes:
  • Super Scribblenauts (Twitch Plays) - we've pitched it twice, it was accepted once but dropped for time, but third time's the charm. Requires more work from micro500 and I plus some additional scripting help to complete but is generally "safe".
  • Anatomy of an Arbitrary Code Exploit. I am actively working on re-implementing the current Super Mario Land 2 game end glitch and I hope to try for the earlier and much more visually interesting version if possible. If I can get it to work, my plan is to graphically show how memory is manipulated using the TAS itself, probably using a purpose-built TAS that has deliberate pauses so I can talk over it. This will require much work and has some risk as I have not yet proven that it can be console verified.
  • A "race", but a very different kind of race than last time. This time around, my plan would be to release a trial version of the game hopefully be the time we submit the runs that will allow people to get used to the game and find some potential glitches and mechanics of the game out ahead of time. This is at medium risk due to the games selection committee potentially rejecting it. (This turned into NES-Pack by Mothrayas, released early as a demo version for people to get used to the physics ahead of the competition.)
  • Something else that has been suggested in the thread so far, but I'm not sure which thing yet. It should very preferably be console verifiable as playing back movies was not well received. What's the most realistic and interesting thing that's already been floated? I know DeHackEd suggested Monopoly but I haven't verified that - could be a good choice, though!(I opted to go with [2715] Windows VVVVVV "20 trinkets, no death mode" by Masterjun in 17:33.77 and [2636] NES Super Mario Bros., 2, The Lost Levels & 3 by agwawaf in 08:49.78. I created a console verification video of SMB1 and SMB3 at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSO9u5htrQw)
(Pre-submission paragraph, left here for history) Here's the catch - submissions open on March 6th and close a week later on the 13th. That means, at most, we have 2 weeks from the date of this edit (2-27) to figure all of this out. That's not much time, but on the flipside we'll know for certain what is in by April 3rd and we'll have 3 months to perfect things after that date before SGDQ 2016 starts on July 3rd. Discuss, please. Status update posts: - 2016-05-07: I've written a substantial update covering donation incentives, contacting Terry for VVVVVV commentary, SML2 progress (or lack thereof), and other updates. - 2016-06-26: I've written a bombshell of an update post with news about everything from a potential TASBot T-Shirt to media relations, not to mention linking to micro500's new TASLink project. Updated 2016-02-27: Heavens, look at the time! (Added deadline note, current suggestions) Updated 2016-03-12: Added list of games submitted Updated 2016-03-13: Added exact submission text Updated 2016-03-13: Announcement of currently accepted runs (updated twice) Updated 2016-05-07: Status update post link Updated 2016-06-26: Major status update link posted
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Post subject: AGDQ 2016 planning / Brain Age art discussion (spoilers)
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Update, 2015-10-20: I've decided to leave this thread as the initial pitch and planning thread and use it for Brain Age art updates. I've created an AGDQ 2016 preparations thread for general updates beyond this point. If you do not want to know what is being planned, do not read this thread. I've discovered no one outside TASVideos actually reads the forums and GDQ events now require more manpower than before, hence the more open approach to planning. Each GDQ has its own forum thread. This post will be edited frequently to reflect the current status; I will try my best to include a change history and link to explanatory posts as time progresses. I (dwangoAC) am the primary organizer and presenter for TASVideos involvement at AGDQ 2016. I will be aided in-person at the event by my wife asassyknitter as well as micro500 and p4plus2, all of whom will be on the couch during the presentation and will be taking on various different roles and responsibilities. There will also be a host of other people who will be providing support from afar in all kinds of positions but it's too early to come up with a definitive list; this paragraph will be updated as we get closer to the event to add clarity. Accepted runs for AGDQ 2016, per the official submissions page: - (25 minutes) Brain Age in the form of a new run on a real DS, thanks to the efforts of micro500 who has full details in the second post. Edit: This game was removed from the schedule due to time constraints. - (15 minutes) Twitch plays Super Scribblenauts (also on a real DS) - this will not be a TAS replay but instead we'll start this as a newgame+ with all levels available and cherry-pick levels to re-play for Twitch to complete, preferably levels that would appeal to their twisted sense of humor in a mad libs sort of way. We'll re-use the Python script from Pokemon Plays Twitch and add in some logic to detect the most commonly said word over, say, a 5 second period, after which that word will be used. We'll troll Twitch by changing common Twitch words like Kappa and typing them, then pressing backspace and replacing them with something else (but only the first time, ignoring it subsequently, and any previously used words for that matter). What intrigues me is that people participating will see the words of others and repeat them which may be an interesting study in herd mentality. Currently I'm leading up this one while flyingtoaster0 is tackling the Python aspects. Chef Steph identified the following good level choices: -- 2-7, "What does the kid want to be when he grows up?" - Potentially any profession will work here, in the TAS we summoned criminals and they worked. -- 4-4, stock a grocery store, in the TAS crazier stuff like "slop" and "sea slug" still worked. -- 5-2, summon items for a horror movie. -- 6-3, fill a garden with plants, in the TAS we summoned poisonous plants and a "gnome". -- 6-12, decorate a house. I remember this level being particularly loose, it accepted all of the lolcats as legitimate "decorations" for whatever reason. -- 10-1, populate mars with a bunch of people. Like 2-7, the game accepts lots of sillier professions. -- 10-3, fill a classroom with school supplies. - (20 minutes) TASBot takes Total Control of... - From the game submission: "Finding an arbitrary code exploit and gaining total control of a console game is non-trivial and has proven to be quite entertaining in the form of Pong and Snake at AGDQ 2014 then SMB on SMW and Pokemon Plays Twitch at AGDQ 2015. In this run, p4plus2, Masterjun and others will flex their mastery once again with something that's sure to surprise the audience." At this time, we have a number of possibilities that we're working on and we'll share details as they become relevant to share, which is to say, the actual payload may be somewhat under wraps on this one but we'll probably be more open about other details. Update 2015-11-08: I have confirmed that a SMB3 total control payload from Lord Tom works on my hardware, which makes me very happy. More details here. - (15 minutes) Speed TAS competition - From the game submission: " The Streeeeemerz speed TAS competition at SGDQ 2015 was a huge success that bears repeating. During a set time any viewer can submit a TAS of a just-announced game, ending with a race of the fastest viewer-submitted TAS pitted against already prepared human runners. We can use a freely redistributeable game or even a game as part of a Humble Bundle tie-in. See: http://tiny.cc/TaS" As of now, I'm actively searching out an appropriate game and/or a willing volunteer to organize this aspect of the event for me. By its very nature the game selection itself *must* be secret, but I'd like to be transparent about the rest of it. If we can get this into a Humble Bundle I'm going to organize it such that it won't be visible until the announcement, possibly unlocked by a key I give out live or similar. The Humble Bundle idea is still a longshot, but it's a worthy goal. There is a lot left to be done and I'm actively seeking volunteers for various things. If you can help at all please let me know. Thanks! Updated 2015-08-10: Added Super Scribblenauts Updated 2015-10-14: I forgot to do updates at all, but see AGDQ 2016 submission post for what happened on this day Updated 2015-11-02: We finally have the full games list of what's accepted in AGDQ 2016! Brain Age, Super Scribblenauts, Total Control, and Speed TAS Competition all made the cut, giving us a full 1:15 of time. Updated 2015-11-08: Add a few credits for people I know will be there in person; TODO; sort out a list of everyone else who will be helping remotely Updated 2015-11-10: Added details on console verificaiton of SMB3 total control run from Lord Tom Updated 2015-10-20: Converted thread to be oriented toward Brain Age art updates
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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n720 wrote:
In this case, the distance is determined by a ratio of weights and there is no limit on it.
Hmm... As in, the total player weight, including inventory? With all that antigold we're not particularly heavy. :) I'm not sure if this will work or not but it's definitely an interesting thing to discuss with ais523.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Tompa wrote:
One downside with this TAS presentation was that there were practically no surprises
This was (more or less) deliberate, with the only "surprise" to the general public being that Sonic Advance was console verified, but people are used to that. I anticipate that SGDQ events will have far fewer surprises in general but proper messaging both in the pitch, on the schedule, and at the beginning of the block to set expectations correctly is required. For AGDQ, there should be some serious surprises if at all possible. Regarding coments from various people about the beginning explanation. I agree, the explanation went on too long. The primary reason for this is I had memorized a sequence where pressing right at frame 142 led to predictable scores but after re-watching the video I see I somehow had select held down and that prevented it from working, which completely threw me off and ended up in something like 7 cycles. Then I was so shaky from not feeling well that I kept hitting wrong buttons and it took me far longer than it should have to show manipulating enemy movement and trying to explain "Hey, if you're a realtime runner and there's a section that's giving you trouble, here's how you can practice it". This could have definitely gone better. I think at least some kind of short intro (whether it's interactive or not) is needed, but it should be closer to 45 seconds long, not 7 minutes long. I had such a huge fear of repeating the humiliation of a desync for a third event in a row that I played it extra extra safe and opted to use an encode rather than hoping that Dolphin didn't desync. I now regret this decision - had I properly tested Ikaruga with the beta versions of Dolphin and gained some confidence in it working it probably would have been just fine but indeed Ikaruga was a video encode and I didn't properly explain that part (I was about to I can see from re-watching the video, but I was interrupted and never got to that part). We didn't get to explaining why it wasn't possible to console verify until so late into the (admittedly somewhat long) run that most people probably missed it, and my failure to get the timer working didn't help matters. I don't plan on using video encodes again because of the backlash from this, but I stand by my choice for Ikaruga - while a lot of people found it boring it also received a near $2k donation and lots of viewers enjoyed it. It was a bit regrettably long, though. Thanks to everyone for the feedback - it *is* useful, as I'm starting to see some clear trends in things people care about. Keep it coming if you have more!
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Derakon wrote:
thatguy wrote:
The problem is there's no guarantee when a TAS will be completed (you never know what's going to hold you up for weeks while you search for that extra frame you're sure you can squeeze out if you just jig the subpixels around a bit), so you can't really assign a TASer to make such-and-such a run to be unveiled at GDQ.
...I'd say leave it up to whoever wants to run the TAS block at the event to pick good TASes, and if someone wants their TAS to be first shown at the event then they need to convince the presenter that that's a good idea.
We unveiled new TAS's in both AGDQ events, in the sense that SMW with that payload hadn't been seen at AGDQ 2014 and there was a new, shorter discovery for AGDQ 2015 by Masterjun. But, keep in mind, we have to go through the game submissions process just like every other runner, and it's up to the GDQ selection committee to decide whether or not to accept a given game. That selection process happens months in advance, so we skirted the issue by calling it a mystery game, but that was a bit of last-minute trickery with the folks placing games on the schedule more than anything. All that to say I agree that something new is best and we will definitely be doing that for AGDQ 2015 but there are limits on how much we can deffer the game name.
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.