Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
The manual has the highest precedence, and it has both versions.
Manual cover:
Actual text of the manual:
Game title screen:
Box cover:
It could be argued that both versions are fine.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Will you guys be using the map video for maximum awesomeness?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Thanks for all the details! So far it really sounds like we shouldn't have problems having both this and SMA4 co-existing.
Also props to fsvgm777 for the video link:
Link to video
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
GUI is updated more frequently than on frame boundaries. Registering a function that way allows it to be ran while the emu is paused.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
We've been reading the trace logs and the disasm, it seems the key glitch is macro glitch. You spawn the broken char and he corrupts the macros, so then you try to use those macros and due to having more chars than possible (6?), the lookup overflows, reading arbitrary data (0x27) as "battle object ID". It then tries to resolve it to some char data and overflows once again, ending up with 0x158 characters it thinks you have. And when setting them up, it finally does the "byte shift", which is not byte shift at all.
Language: asm
005694: 23B1 move.l (A1,D3.w,4), (A1,D3.w) ; swap next fighter with current
00569A: 5843 addq.w #4, D3 ; do the same for next pair
00569C: 51CA dbra D2, $5694 ; decrement D2 and jump back to 005694 unless D2 is $FFFF
Before that, the starting address (Battle_Turn_Order) of the area to be corrupted is loaded:
Language: asm
00568A: 43F8 lea $FFFFEFB0.w, A1
And so, corruption loops up to address $FFEFB0 + $55C + 4 = $FFF510. Then some more, but you get the idea. It's not a byte-wise shift. It copies over 4-byte chunks that 68K calls longs, and the offset is also 4 bytes.
Now, should we call the glitch and this branch "long shift"? I don't think it tells anything helpful to the viewer either. I prefer "macro glitch". This seems to be the most important "feature" of the broken char. Does anyone want it to be something else?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Is this the "byte shift" glitch? I see memory corruption and then you save the game, reset, and continue. It looks like you're loading the corrupted save data and that's the main feature of the movie. Is that correct, or you might as well not save/load there and just keep playing, getting the same speedrun benefits?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
That's yt giving you different streams entirely. They keep at least 2 versions for each resolution. IIRC, it's mostly AVC in MP4 and VP9 in MKV.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Alright, I've read the 2 threads at SDA and the 2 threads for the NES Zelda 100% submissions. Here's what I think.
For any game that doesn't provide clear and obvious, internally defined or officially encouraged full completion goal, it's the community who decides what full completion will consist of. In that sense, any variation of such a goal is inherently arbitrary. So everything that can be done is picking the variant that feels the least arbitrary for the vast majority of people. Those people might be bringing up logical reasons why they think their variant makes the most sense, but in the end, the final definition is what the majority feels satisfied with.
Don't underestimate feel of satisfaction! This is the whole reason why we still encourage Vault movies to be done on hardest difficulty: even though the movie is boring as hell, and even though we want fastest possible records in Vault, we still want maximum challenge to be completed even if it's slower. Because that's more satisfying for a superplay record.
In a sense, this is also the reason we have Vault in the first place: lots of people are somehow entertained by speed records of boring games, and it satisfies them to have such records hosted on a site one of whose goals is hosting records.
Where I'm going with this? In the SDA threads discussing this goal, no one disliked the definition that was suggested by Radix. People were satisfied with it. People were satisfied with the resulting speedrun. Moreover, their feel of satisfaction with that definition lasted for 14 years! That's incredible if you ask me.
The first "all items" TAS of NES Zelda had a very clear goal that originates entirely from the internal gameplay mechanics: get all items you can't lose. Now, even though that definition was less arbitrary than other variations (because it sticks to just one aspect of the game and doesn't arbitrarily expand upon it), people really disliked it! They demanded that a few items that you can lose must also be collected, because it doesn't feel as full completion without them. They were not satisfied by the less arbitrary definition!
And when that was canceled and a new run appeared that collected the same items and also those people asked for, that run got way better feedback and got accepted. Because it satisfied the community. See, we can say that second definition was more arbitrary. But the community didn't feel that way.
So what do we have here? I skimmed through the posts and failed to find any complaints about the full completion definition. The first complaint was mine. And even after I tried to spark some critical discussion on that matter, I couldn't! People were satisfied with the definition borrowed from the RTA community where it persisted for 14 years.
I don't have anything else to demand from this movie really. The usual full completion requirements that we have all seem to be met.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Subframe movies is not just polling input more frequently. It involves making sure sound, video, and input updates don't screw up each other. Some cores already require variable framerates to line up NMI with input and audio. This would require redesigning half of the emulator. Even a monster like MAME that attaches NMI and video updates to a timer, assumes CFR. So don't hold your breath.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I don't remember if there were faster records using 1 player. As for how improvable it was, I did consider this point, and the time loss mentioned in the thread seemed to be less than the time saved by the new glitch, so I accepted it, encouraging improvements.
mtvf1 wrote:
Soig's submission didn't exist when Heidman submitted his run, so there were no records the submission was losing to. Soig canceled, so I were unable to accept his movie while rejecting Heidman's. The rule doesn't mean the published movie shouldn't be improvable, it means the submission should account for existing records. It's impossible to account for them when they don't yet exist :)
mtvf1 wrote:
The judge addressed this as well, saying it's not known if the tricks from the video are reproducible for a movie, so we can't easily use such examples as records. Tricks that can be used to make the movie faster don't automatically translate to "existing records". They are just known improvements. If there was a movie implementing those tricks or routing decisions, and it was faster than the submission, then it'd be clearly losing to existing records.
mtvf1 wrote:
The decision was made before you brought up a faster TAS, and I think your post was somehow missed. The improvement should have been investigated, and if it was legitimate and reproducible, that submission would be rejected.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
TASVideoAgent wrote:
SuggestedScreenshot
During "the big avalanche" in the second half of Course I or around Depth 1100 fts in Course J which shows some new strategy.
You mean these 2?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Would you like to check why Dasrik is faster in that level, so that information is complete?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Thanks for the comparison Spikestuff, and awesome job Geesk! It's honestly quite impressive to beat a WIP you haven't compared to. As for having this one single level that's 1.5 seconds slower, I'll quote Memory.
Memory wrote:
This is by no means a strict rule when it comes to unfinished WIPs beating finished runs but we want people to put in a basic amount of research when it comes to submitted TASes and that includes looking up any existing wips.
EDIT: What I mean by "this is not a strict rule" is not to say we will be accepting of outright inferior play. What we strictly enforce is that a submission has execution on par with or superior to any known WIPs. It is to say that a wip that is faster than a submission up to a certain point through a trick that the submission was unaware of but the submission otherwise seems to do its due diligence and has higher execution of that of the WIP is not outright disqualified from acceptance. If the submission loses time in numerous places to a WIP then it is considered obsoleted by the WIP.
What is considered a known WIP is what can be accessed through TASVideos forums, easily accessed through search engines, or otherwise readily available to the author. This is not a hard list, but can be considered a bare minimum. It is not expected that one dive through video sites for hours but one should put in some effort into research when making a submission.
This means the overall level of play here is higher than in the existing records, one level just has known improvement (we only need to figure out why it's slower exactly). Since fixing that one level would indeed mean redoing everything once again, I don't think it's fair to still demand a new version of this TAS at any cost.
I don't think Geesk just maliciously refused to check Dasrik's WIP. Maybe some misunderstanding happened, and it wasn't perfectly clear what exactly we want, for a newcomer. The improvement we're seeing here is really impressive, and long overdue, so great job once again!
I also think it'd be fair to let the author decide whether they still want to push this game even further, or leave it for future, whoever does it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Which glitches listed in the first section are unique to this movie, not present in our existing TASes of this game?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Thanks for reminding, even though it was canceled, I still need to go through that list and review/reply on each.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
screevo wrote:
Hello; I am a moderator for the Speedrun.com leaderboards for ALTTP. I'd like to point out two things.
1. This video meets what the ALTTP community has long defined as 100%, in every sense of the category.
Is there a thread where this definition was set up by the RTA people? Or was it just assorted comments? Maybe I will find answers to my questions in such a thread. People definitely asked themselves "okay why do we want this to be included, and that to be excluded?"
screevo wrote:
2. Here is an accepted submission for Zelda 1 "All Items" - http://tasvideos.org/2508M.html - This submission skips the blue ring as well as the level 2 sword. However, it was accepted as 100% completion. Can we please hold fmp and Yuzuhara's excellent work to this same standard?
Nice find, we will investigate this too.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
What Gens shows as FFxxxx can be seen in bizhawk if you use 64K Bus memory domain. But 68K RAM domain shows the same stuff, just drops the FF part. This region starts at FF0000 of 68K Bus and is a mirror of it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
fmp wrote:
feos wrote:
The crystals imply that the pendants were maxed out. We require that no glitches are used to max out the pendants, and they are legitimately maxed out in this movie, so the crystals legitimately imply the pendants. By checking the crystals you make sure the pendants are fine, because we ban glitch use that advances you in terms of full completion.
I have no idea what this means. Crystals and pendant collection are tracked separately and the display for them in the menu is based on whether or not you’ve advanced to the final quest state by killing Agahnim.
If the semantics of the community-decided goal are really going to be a problem, just call it a playaround like 2021M.
The main question is: Can we consider this goal official (for tasvideos) "full completion"? This in turn would mean it could even be accepted to Vault if the entertainment value of the movie happened to be low.
Our framework is hosting clear and obvious speed records under one set of conditions, and generally entertaining side goals under another set of conditions. The former we publish regardless of how boring they are. The latter we only publish if they represent unique content.
Clear and obvious speed records for us can only consist of exactly 2 types of goals: fastest completion and full completion. Those are not just semantics, they have to be defined very solidly and they need to be recognized by the vast majority of our viewers as sane. It's some kind of a speed record seal of approval, and as a result, we publish that no matter what.
This particular submission happens to follow the full completion definition invented by the RTA community, but turns out that definition isn't as clear and obvious as we would want. They are fine with that, because they just host as many branches as people happen to speedrun. We offer more elaborate services than they do, and we have stricter requirements. So we do extra brainstorming when it comes to defining fastest and full completion for the first time, for our site.
This is why I may be seen as nitpicky.
So if no one really thinks this movie's goal must define full completion for this game, we would just accept it as a side branch that is entertaining enough to exist independently of our nitpicky definitions.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
The crystals imply that the pendants were maxed out. We require that no glitches are used to max out the pendants, and they are legitimately maxed out in this movie, so the crystals legitimately imply the pendants. By checking the crystals you make sure the pendants are fine, because we ban glitch use that advances you in terms of full completion.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
The simplest way to define the goal of this movie without endless explanations is: "maximum inventory"
Still, details:
Pause menu screen and in-game HUD are defined as inventory.
If an upgrade doesn't appear in the inventory at any time, whenever you wish to check it, it's discarded in this branch.
If an upgrade only appears in the inventory if you do certain very specific actions, or visit very specific places, it's disregarded.
If an upgrade can be maxed out without doing the intermediate steps, aside from glitches, the intermediate steps may be disregarded.
If intermediate steps are required to max out an upgrade, they are taken.
This is what stands behind the RTA definition for this branch, who defines it verbally as "max upgrades except not arrow and bomb capacity".
My personal impression:
There are way too many IFs. This is not as clear and obvious as we would like it to be for a full completion branch. If you want inventory upgrades, grab them all, don't skip things like Sword 2. If you want just upgrades, don't skip arrow and bomb capacity. If you want all one-time collectables, there are also chests.
The problem is, we can't simply say "full inventory", "all upgrades", "all inventory upgrades". This movie is not about getting all of any of those. It is only about reaching their max level. And only for ones that the game can always show you.
Does anyone have any feeling or thoughts in that regard?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
AlbertHamik wrote:
Well I was pretty excited to try this out for myself. Compiled both the latest stable versions of libTAS and DOSBox in Fedora 27 and setup two games of mine, Chasm: The Rift and The Terminator: SkyNET.
Both of them threw back random error messages which tells me they didn't like libTAS very much as they play normally outside of it. I tested out another game I had, Radix: Beyond the Void, and that appears to work just fine. Bit of a shame, as I was really hoping to test out those two prior games.
Just report whatever bugs you're having to libtas repo. Keylie fixes things quite quickly if he has a way to reproduce them.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Archanfel wrote:
Есть если я правильно понял это правило, то что бы им воспользоваться, нужно будет основной мувик с завершением геймплея отправить как основной для подсчета времени.
А второй мувик с одним дополнительным нажатием клавиши, нужным для запуска титров, скажем минуту спустя после катсцены, загрузить в юзерфайлы и он будет использоваться для энкода.
Так?
В точности!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
That's what we're up to as well.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
EZGames69 wrote:
For whoever publishes this, please make the Japanese version the main encode while having the American version be the secondary.
That would lead to mismatch with the movie being published. If you want JPN version to be used as primary, edit the movie accordingly and I'll replace it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Actual text of the manual:
Game title screen:
Box cover:
.jpg)
It could be argued that both versions are fine.
Is this the "byte shift" glitch? I see memory corruption and then you save the game, reset, and continue. It looks like you're loading the corrupted save data and that's the main feature of the movie. Is that correct, or you might as well not save/load there and just keep playing, getting the same speedrun benefits?
