Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
So let's talk about the glitch used here to get the medallions. I was told that it can easily be considered a major skip glitch, without it the run with the same goals would be more than twice as long.
Recently there was a common decision at tasvideos to forbid memory corruption, ACE, and some other glitches from "full completion" actions.
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#FullCompletionRules
Note that all these techniques can still be used throughout the whole run, they just can not be used for things that represent full completion requirements. For example, in a Super Metroid 100% run, you can activate ACE and use it to speed you up, but not for writing the items into your inventory without actually collecting them, and not for displaying the false item count percentage in the end.
So I want to ask, do we want other goals that form branches to also forbid such techniques, not just "full completion"?
For example, do we want to consider a legit TAS a run of Super Metroid aiming for "100% map" that simply uses ACE to color all the map as visited, while only visiting, say, a single room for real?
Or do we want Contra: Hard Corps "best ending" to go the "secret ending" route instead, and then glitch the game into showing us the best ending?
Or do we want Tetris "fastest 999999" to glitch the game into showing that score instead of actually obtaining it in-game?
I think that any goal that forms the TAS branch should be accomplished for real, instead of tricking the game into thinking it was accomplished. And I think the exception should be demonstrating the glitchy technique itself, like "box glitch" in Crash Bandicoot.
If we agree on such a rule, it becomes clear that this run doesn't aim to collect all the medallions. It just showcases a glitch that tricks the game into thinking they have been collected. Something like "all medallions glitch". Or "item glitch". You name it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Warp wrote:
I seem to remember some kind of discussion about this, and the consensus was that Wii VC versions of games would probably be accepted. I might remember wrong.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Why won't you post the Lua scripts you've made?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
p4wn3r wrote:
From my part, I think it's entirely unreasonable that every movie before this one had a given level of entertainment preferences and, somehow, coincidentally, after people stir a bit of controversy in the submission thread, the preferences of many users suddenly change and they don't find HappyLee's choices entertaining anymore. While everyone is allowed to exercise their subjectivity in rating something, no one deserves special treatment if the author has good reasons to believe the "rating" is bullshit also.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that there appeared a competitor out of thin air? I mean, before MrWint stepped in, everyone was taking HappyLee's work for granted, and now they are subconsciously challenging it?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Stovent wrote:
Here, he collected all the medallions, so the games allows him to enter Ganon's castle in the regular way, but uses a credit warp glitch to skip iit and finishes the game faaster.
Still unsure. He collects them, therefore he is then allowed to enter the castle, but he just never enters it? As in, medallions are effectively useless in this run?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
BrunoVisnadi wrote:
that's not how we are supposed to vote.
We're not censoring votes for a reason. But should we really switch to that topic here?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Consider this example.
In Ghosts'n'Goblins you need a cross to beat the final boss. I warp-glitch from level 1 to where the cross is located, grab it, then game-end-glitch skipping the boss. And call the branch "the cross". Does this submission do the same with those medallions?
I mean, you just go out of your glitched route, collect them in a glitched way simply because you can, and then never actually use them?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Nach wrote:
If MAME is really supplying a faithful 4x86 lacking all the newer features, you might need to ramp that up to 600MHz or more just to match a Pentium II 266 MHz when the software in question is capable of using the newer stuff.
MAME supports overclocking for that CPU (quoting Lord_Nightmare, "start MAME with the -cheat parameter and then in the sliders menu you can adjust cpu overclock"). Since 586 emulation is weak, and if we stick to 486 officially, will it be allowed to overclock the CPU? My personal opinion is that given no other options to run newer games, and technical ability to do this physically to the original CPU, it'd bring more benefits than controversy.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
See here for problems with Jabo.
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=463174#463174
I will soon release a bizhawk version where GlideN64 fixes a bunch of problems with OoT, so Jabo won't be so necessary anymore. That version will be for WinXP x86, so there won't be any reason not to use GlideN64 in submissions like this one.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
HappyLee wrote:
No one can imagine how pissed off I am to hear some people saying that this is somehow less entertaining than MrWint's run without providing evidence or details. Yes, entertainment can be partially subjective, but at least don't let your feelings go over the facts.
The problem is, whether one is entertained or not depends on subjective factors entirely. Anything can affect one's mood, and mood can affect enjoyment. Also tastes differ. Enjoyment can't be guaranteed, no matter how hard you work. Maybe it has to do with inspiration instead? Hard work is good, and without it inspiration won't be able to make you generate highly impressive solutions. But hard work without inspiration, or not fully based on inspiration, is sometimes not as enjoyable as you'd expect.
HappyLee wrote:
So all I say is this: I didn't have to be so hard on myself when making this run and spend so much effort trying to bring this run into a new level of SMB TASing, just to have my work degraded by some people here. I could have done this the easy way, without having to worry about how to deal with every jump, every fireball, every detail, every new and exciting ways of killing enemies, new ways to show more glitches of this game, or where to slow down for entertainment. If people here can't appreciate it, why should I bother submitting my work on TASVideos at the highest standard possible? I could care less.
You're a creative person. TASVideos is a site for creative work. We highlight the most creative pieces of work, we value them a lot. But sometimes creative people don't notice that they still have directions to improve themselves. I think for a creative person, who also happens to be a hard worker, the right direction of improvement is becoming a professional.
Some people would say that once you start earning money with what you do, you are a professional, but I disagree: if you earn money with what you do, you're just really good a it. IMO, what makes you a professional (aside from the time and effort that you've invested into something over the years) is ability to look professionally at your own professionalism! When you know you're a pro, and you don't take it too seriously.
I have an example, my fellow Zubareus was making incredibly awesome covers on game music. Very talented, sophisticated stuff, he would always play a bit of the original tune, and then create all sorts of variations on top of it, that are not the same anymore, but similarly awesome. He was doing that for years. But always there was some degree of his audience that would move in and start bitching that he makes those variations instead of playing 100% as the original. Somehow they didn't care that the original tune was still there, they literally wanted him to stop building his own creative ideas on top. After years of that bitching he got demotivated and stopped developing original tunes. He actually started only playing the original as is.
What does it mean? His creativity that he dedicated so much effort to over the years, was not just ignored, it was disliked! He asked himself, why would I work so hard on my improvisations every time, if there will still be people who say "fuck this creativity, we want stupid midi-rips just like millions of others do, we don't understand art".
You see, creative people who invest tons of effort into their art can get demotivated, if some percent of their audience doesn't like how they do their art.
And what I want to say with all this, you will ALWAYS see some percent of people who don't care how much work you invest, how much you enjoy your own art, their taste is simply different! Do not let this kill creativity in you, become a professional upon your own skills. If somebody doesn't enjoy what you enjoy, it's not their fault, it's just their difference. Remember that there will always be people that do enjoy your art! Work for them, don't mind the haters, and your mood will be much much better.
After realizing that TASing is art I wrote this page:
http://tasvideos.org/TasingGuide/TASArt.html
I noticed you have quite some philosophy behind TASing, so that page might interest you.
DrD2k9 wrote:
Third, if you are unhappy with the way the site/community handles things, you are welcome to stop contributing. No one is forcing you to participate.
This is not an official notion. We want all TASers to feel comfortable here and contribute their works.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
No, it looks like the call should have used "at486" instead?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
I have another idea. Please test all this on the version I have rerecording for. It's MESS, not MAME, they merged the codebases a while ago, back in 2010 they were kinda separate, but I think I can compile this version of MESS with rerecording if it works for you guys.
http://www.progettosnaps.net/download?tipo=mess_bin&file=/mess/packs/mess0139b.zip
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Regarding VirtualBox-RR, recently we had an Hourglass submission created in a VB WinXP. It only synced for the author, but for none of the people who had an identical VB environment. It worked for me partially on native XP. I would very much try to avoid anything that heavily depends on the host hardware, even though the possibilities that running a modern system emulator would open are quite tempting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
The problem is, there's no such emulator yet.
MAME cannot do it?
Also, maybe we should consider VirtualBox-RR.
My current mame-rr wasn't compiled with support of anything but arcades, and it's from 2010, so I dunno how well it works there even if I make such a build. And upstream mame doesn't have rerecording yet, I was planning to add it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
There's also a way to grab a PC emulator with rerecording, install linux on it, and run windows games via wine. Or install windows right away. The problem is, there's no such emulator yet. But this is an option, we'll see which approach happens sooner, and which approach turns out to be more stable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Link to video
ERRRR I was so slow with my 4K encode that you made yours sooner, nice job feos.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Let's start with what you want to achieve. I don't think this whole setup will fit into bizhawk just yet. I'd rather add basic rerecording to MAME itself as a start. It already has movies and savestates, just not tied together.
Porting this to bizhawk would have to resolve a huge pile of things, and we're not ready for solving them before we ensure the setup itself works.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
InfamousKnight wrote:
how would we implement those?
Depends on what you plan to implement.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Congratulations!!!
So if we decide to distribute HDD images with FreeDOS on them, will it be needed to add anything else to such images, or you just put them in the right place and install the game?
I mean, to figure out the legal nature of this, we need to know exactly what we distribute. And for that, we need to include as much as possible into those "distributives", so the only thing left to do is installing the game.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Oh! I was planning to enjoy the comparison encode. Then this happened.
OK, but can I ask, what this cancellation is trying to achieve exactly?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Oh boy, you guys are fantastic!!!
Slamo, can you make a MAME recording of you playing Quake with SB16?
-aviwrite video.avi
This will make uncompressed AVI, so before sharing you might want to reencode it using something like virtualdub, with some lossless codec like lagarith.
Dacicus, mame devs have an IRC chat where any setup question can be asked: #mame. I would talk to them myself, but I don't know what is not working exactly and how to express myself about something I don't know how to ask. Can you ask them if the problem you are having is a bug or by design, or maybe they know a workaround? They seem to be using such emulated machines with installed OSs quite a lot. This stuff even supports networking from those OSs!
I don't think sharing HDD images with FreeDOS installed is illegal, but we'll need to research on this. Also, if we distribute such an image, I think it'd be handier if the HDD had smaller size? I think for any potential TAS one would need a dedicated HDD image to prevent messing things up. So I think it'd just need to be the size where the biggest DOS game would fit?
I found a thread that contains TONS of other installation instructions, like windows 2000, linux or amiga os. The wiki link above copies the first instruction from that thread.
http://forums.bannister.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=86865
Important notes from IRC:
Lord_Nightmare one important thing to note if you have a killer instinct or similar arcade hdd and want to 'update' it to a later version: please image the original drive first, MAME is missing MANY drive software versions
Lord_Nightmare dumping the ata-identify page from drives is strongly recommended as well, theres a special utility to do that, ask on the dumping union forums
Lord_Nightmare the ata identify page contains the drive serial number, drive type name, and some other important information that many games actually check!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
Prince of Persia uses MT32, Doom uses both. It seems to be optional, I just don't know how to enable proper sound card there.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
UPDATE - 2018-06-05
So tons of testing was done. MAME runs DOS and somewhat runs Windows. Somewhat runs Linux, and does not run standalone FlashPlayer. It also has bugs in savestates, and doesn't really have solid emulation of anything after 486. Even after all the years of developement, their thread at Bannister forum ends with this:
PC/XT/AT (inside) WIP topic wrote:
Give PCem a shot until MAME matures some - it's quite good. I've even managed to install Windows XP with some recent cdrom fixes committed to the tree, and it works surprisingly well. On an emulated Pentium 233, Voodoo 2 and a functional network card, no less.
Amusingly, it's like a testament to us. Because what we need is solid emulation of as modern hardware as possible. Also, by the time MAME matures more, PCem will emulate x64 and nvidia cards I guess?
So the setup is similar to what we were trying:
Install DOS. Either FreeDOS or MS-DOS. The former lets us ship DOS environment bundles ready for TASing.
Install x86 Windows, up to XP, inclusively. Even if we come up with ways to disable some features that may slow the system down or increase its memory usage, there's still no way to distribute it, so we have to install it from scratch.
Install x86 Linux. Some games work on Linux natively.
Use Wine on Linux. Library is a bit bigger than the the above.
Linux only has x86 FP versions up to 11.2. Recently Adobe started providing x64 standalone FP versions for Linux, but x64 is useless for us, because those emulators only emulate x86 machines.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
