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Disclaimer: I didn't intend this post to be so critical and long, but this submission happened to unpack a lot of things that we haven't discussed before. It's not aimed at anyone, it just ponders a few new theses.
This was my main question with this game:
Wiki: Glossary#VideoGame wrote:
A video game poses a virtual task. It requires the player to accomplish some in-game job.
so I was curious how it's resolved in the submission, and the solution is
the virtual task is quite literally the name of the video game
While I can definitely see how this game does its best to suggest a task to the player, the secondary sentence of the definition (meant to elaborate on the first one) says "It requires the player to accomplish some in-game job" and I can't agree that there are any kinds of requirements in this game whatsoever.
It gives you some tools to use, and then basically leaves you on your own. You can invent indefinite number of your own goals and definitions, and the game won't object, its tools will just retain their limits.
The game does nothing to tell you what is considered actually coloring a dinosaur, and there's no explanation of what isn't. So players are on their own here, and we can already see how we can define it in several relatively natural ways. Now if we consider that TASing it about pushing games to their limits, beyond natural limitations, it would be strange to stop on what feels obvious to us after having read the title of the game. Why limit ourselves (and our creativity) with how real world is organized? We don't emulate the real world and we can't TAS it, not even as a part of a videogame. So why do we need to rely on English language when determining in-game actions?
This goes further.
We rely on English language literally when we interpret the game title as the only objective of the game. Then we vaguely rely on it and vaguely reinvent it when determining what should be considered coloring. And then we refuse to rely on it when deciding that coloring a dinosaur is objectively the requirement of this game. And we outright contradict English language if we say that whatever community is going to agree on, is objectively the goal of the game.
The only objective reality with video games is in-game reality. All the rest is human's subjective convention.
Okay so subjective human convention is not something bad in its nature. We still need to achieve community agreement on major subjects like policies, or on subjectivity-based movie goals when deciding whether a playaround is entertaining. We encourage subjective feedback on movies in general, and we work with that data as an objective fact. But we should not use community agreement as a substitution for an objective fact. We should not operate in a paradigm like "if enough people consider this color blue, then it's objectively blue".
Even if we wanted, we do not have reliable sample size here. And we don't even have a consensus yet, and I'm not looking forward to a consensus picking from several logically equivalent options.
White is definitely a color, and the game allows you to color everything white. But do we agree that the goal if the game is us coloring everything white? Of course not. The goal of the game is, maybe, us coloring everything in some way.
But on the other hand, can we agree that us changing absolutely nothing is the goal of the game? I don't think so. The game's documentation goes out of its way to show us example pictures where dinosaurs are colored by applying different colors to them. It even has all those different colors available! Of course the game's goal is that we use those colors! But this is when we decide that we're too creative to care about the game's expectations, and we ignore them by not changing anything in the game. Yet we care about its title's wording and use it as a command. Sounds inconsistent.
If somehow we reach an agreement on what is objectively the required goal of this game, I have another problem. For games without an ending we have this set of acceptable end points:
Wiki: MovieRules#MovieMustBeComplete wrote:
If there's no clear ending, end after completing the first full game loop. However you may play further and end after any of the following:
All unique content (enemies, level layouts, game mechanics, etc.) is exhausted and completed.
The loop with the hardest in-game difficulty (enemy speed, AI, etc.) is completed.
In games with a score counter, you may end when you reach the maximum score the game allows.
This run doesn't aim for maximum score, it doesn't complete the hardest difficulty loop, it doesn't exhaust all unique content, and I'm afraid it doesn't even complete the first full game loop. It completes essentially a single optional level and stops there. I can't agree that every dinosaur is a full game loop. And neither of them is the first one, they are all optional. So at the very least all unique content should be exhausted and completed, which is what #8258: Samsara's NES Color a Dinosaur in 02:07.46 does, and like MarioAtWork, that other submission is the one I'd consider a fastest completion of this game, if it has any.
If this game ends up fitting our definition of a video game, then I don't think it will be our current definition. It will have to be changed to fit this game. And of course it's not a problem in itself, because we can't predict everything. And we only evolve if we're ready to change.
But when a definition has to be changed to the opposite of the one we agreed on as a community... then why do we even need definitions? If the goal is tweaking them in a way that everything ends up fitting, why have community discussions on where to put a limit?
Photoshop is a game. It gives you tools and the goal is that you use its title as a command. You just have to photoshop. Once you've photoshopped, you've completed the game. Can we have a community consensus on this one please? Wait we first need a community agreement on what is considered actually photoshopping...
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Can't get it to sync, with or without writing to disk (correct game file and ruffle version).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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jlun2 wrote:
How do I do that for all branches? I right clicked "Clear Greenzone" in Tastudios.
Open tasproj with an archiver and remove the greenzone file itself. Allowing it if it's 0 size sounds like a useful options tho, because it would allow users to make it uploadable from just tastudio itself.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
A video game is audio/visual. It presents its content on some electronic device in audio and/or video form.
A video game is interactive. It requires repeated user input to progress.
A video game poses a virtual task. It requires the player to accomplish some in-game job.
User input is transformative. Which set of suggested in-game choices you make determines optimality level of your play.
A video game is finite. It has an objective end point, or a community vetted one.
Note that this definition is strictly for TASVideos, and is not meant to objectively define a video game in all contexts.
While most of these are matched by this game, the question is how do we determine/define optimality? Can you be more or less optimal and get different completion time? Is optimality there outside of how it sounds? By playing as good as possible, do you get higher score and/or better time?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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After going to an older ruffle it didn't spam errors from frame 80, so I thought it was good and edited it to say it was fine, but it did still spam errors after 1k frames, and the video was still broken since frame 80, just differently. So I removed the edit and instead listed what I'm running it against.
tl;dr: still broken.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If I try to dump video I get ERROR: glReadPixels failed with error 1282 spam to console and broken video after frame 80. With -g vulkan and without graphics argument it desyncs. How did you dump it?
libTAS 1.4.4 + ruffle nightly 2023-03-31
513771_Uncharted2.swf
CRC32: 788700C2
MD5: E61E7E8CF2AB42AC66BD6D5BF71A8863
SHA-1: 9CA355BD6B716DB7818874A7415416F7BF031EA1
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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rythin wrote:
I've always felt like Standard was missing a goal for something along the lines of "forgoes the use of one common glitch", where the movie can still feature many glitches of various severity, but omits one particular one that would otherwise be repeated throughout the movie.
Samsara wrote:
It could be as obvious as Zelda 2's L+R glitch or as subtle as this run shooting things outside of window bounds just as long as the core gameplay is noticeably and meaningfully changed.
So yeah, a "zipless" Sonic or Megaman.
Samsara wrote:
I think a big problem here though is that we run the risk of overpopulating a game with similar branches, which as much as I tend to think "What's the issue with adding more branches?" these days, it wouldn't really make sense to have "any%", "any% that uses a movement glitch but foregoes major skips", "any% that uses major skips but foregoes a movement glitch", and "any% that doesn't use any glitches" all alongside each other. Even in the case of this game, I'm wondering whether or not it actually makes sense to have "any% that uses no window bounds and a level skip glitch" and "any% that uses the level skip glitch but stays within bounds" alongside each other. Were someone(stuff) to make a version that foregoes both, would that be a separate branch as well?
I think we might have to make it a sort of nebulous thing where we can accept any of these kinds of branches as standard, but depending on the game and the glitches there may be cases where we have to figure out what branches are worth keeping published together and what branches might have to go to Alternative or Playground.
I don't particularly mind similar branches, nor "how many is too many". The thing I want for Standard is an explainable system that feels clear and helpful. Of course some cases of its application may be less clear than others, but that's because a certain game decides to do things in a unique weird way, so we rely on subjective things more if we need.
Since it looks like the current system doesn't solve this movie, I suggest we first try to check if it's solved by minor tweaks to the current system.
Are there games where a major skip glitch is a different entity from this repeated gameplay-changing glitch, and we'd want all variations of branches: with both, with only one, with only another, and with none? What if repeated gameplay-changing glitch is treated like MSG if a game doesn't have MSG? Basically, what if we turn the "no major skip glitch" category into "no biggest glitch"?
Another idea is borrowing our definition of skipped gameplay from the "cheats" category and drawing the line there. MSG completely skips gameplay, while repeated gameplay-changing glitch changes it (or maybe even adds more of it?). Of course the question becomes what to do with other glitches that may change gameplay, and also with glitches that skip non-major parts of it. Does the severity usually go like this: one major skip > all gameplay changers > all minor skips? What about glitches that simply make some things faster?
Overall I'm in favor of having a "minimal glitches" category. For games with clear difference between a glitch and a normal mechanic, it would result in an obvious definition of "glitchless", and in more complicated games we'd just rely on whatever has a community consensus.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Did you watch the existing publication while making your run? In the palace you take a different route and collect a different stone (not mentioned as an improvement), and apparently it costs you about 10 more frames.
You skip this stone (which costs Johnnypoiro 72-76 frames, depending on how you count)
and collect this one instead (which costs you 88 frames of detour)
I compared gameplay more closely, and it looks like you make better decisions, so your movie is still faster overall, but there's definitely room for more. And I personally prefer the SMS version because it has the benefit of a bigger screen (and presence of in-game HUD) while not having any obvious shortcomings.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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vermiceli wrote:
After the Summoning Salt video showing the level skip bug, I decided to start with Trax's disassembly and take it further. I've made a complete disassembly of Contra with proper labels which allows for modification without breaking jumps and branching. It includes supplemental documentation, diagrams, lua scripts, and tooling to build the rom. This code is on github at https://github.com/vermiceli/nes-contra-us/
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Dacicus wrote:
I probably have the originals on an old hard drive, if you want them.
Yes. Fixed by adelikat.
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I checked the palace too and couldn't find any easy improvements. Not sure myself what's the deal with the caves, maybe lag alignment played a role. You'd have to make a table of actions and their frames to see how long each of them takes in your and my version. There were several places where running was available quicker, and then I was able to dodge a boulder at 8235 instead of waiting for it.
My guess about later levels was probably wrong, but when judging improvements it's usually either clear from using the same setup as the old movie (same emulator, game version, mode, options), or if it's on a different setup, the new run looks clearly superior by comparing gameplay, or a whole bunch of improvements is listed, and it isn't easily improvable itself. Subjectively, a version with a smaller screen is inferior, so I'm unsure why it was chosen.
I'm not saying this movie isn't acceptable, I just mean it's unclear how to approach this. Maybe it's already fine as is, then I'd just need some opinions.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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rythin wrote:
I've always felt like Standard was missing a goal for something along the lines of "forgoes the use of one common glitch", where the movie can still feature many glitches of various severity, but omits one particular one that would otherwise be repeated throughout the movie.
#7874: GMP's GC Prince of Persia: Warrior Within "zipless" in 24:56.15 is a great example of this in recent memory, though I'm sure there's many others that also fit the description.
How do we decide which glitch can/should be avoided? In the case of "zipless" movies, they all fit very well into Alternative.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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InputEvelution wrote:
While not necessarily applicable to these two TASes, I feel that it's worth talking about the limitations of off-screen mouse input in the official Flash Player, as this seems to have been the main argument used for allowing it. While you can indeed click things before they appear within the regular bounds of the screen in Adobe's offline Flash Player, you can't really do so along diagonals. Expanding the window in two dimensions at once merely causes Flash to expand things up to fill in the gap. So while it's possible to click things that are off-screen in one dimension, it's not possible to do so for things off-screen in both at once. It's also not possible to see anything beyond the normal bounds, at least in the games I tested.
It's optional.
InputEvelution wrote:
That being said, I am still not against the idea of having these as two separate branches. While I can't say I find its usage here to fall under the category of a "major skip glitch"...I would prefer it if TASers had the option to submit movies that specifically choose not to exploit this kind of thing. It feels...cheap? Unintended? Unentertaining? It's hard for me to pinpoint anything in my gut reaction that makes for a coherent point here, and it seems the few of those who have participated in discussions about this agree on accepting it, but I'd very much prefer to be able to keep making TASes that choose not to use it, without such things being treated as an "optimisation error" or "not in an entertaining enough movie". Frankly, the most I've been able to see myself using this is choosing a female worker in the Papa's games where a male worker would otherwise be faster to select. Perhaps L+R/U+D is worth considering in this discussion as well, if it's considered a rather similar issue to this.
rythin wrote:
Option B - The technique is used to save major amounts of time by directly interacting with gameplay in some way, either allowing for glitches that lead to major skips or significantly skipping intended waiting sections as happens here.
[...]
As for option B, it absolutely should be a separate branch. My initial thought would be to put both branches in Standard, with the one using off-screen clicks as the baseline, since I believe that's how it currently works with L+R input in older console games? Though doing it another way may be more practical, I'm rather new to the site and don't yet fully understand the decision-making behind how the branches and classes are structured.
The tricky part is when this technique results in gameplay difference, but that difference is not enough to go to Alternative. I listed options we have with the current rules at the bottom of this post.
If we want this technique to be Standard eligible (meaning branches with and without it would co-exist regardless of entertainment), we need to come to a community agreement on which standard goal it would represent. If it's not about using and avoiding a major skip glitch, then we need a new standard goal for this. Which is in turn made tricky by similarities with L+R on old consoles: some games only get slightly faster over it, and some just break (there are probably other official intended limitations that we historically abuse, but I can't remember off the top of my head).
I always felt uneasy thinking about having a Flash-only one-off standard goal that wouldn't be applicable to any other platform, just like we're all seeing the similarity between it and L+R. Can "simultaneous cardinal inputs" be a separate standard goal on its own, regardless of its difference? I'm not sure it makes sense to me.
As I mentioned before, I'd be fine with having a standard goal along the lines of "fewest glitches", even if its definition is ultimately subjective. But at least once there's some kind of a definition, it becomes more or less clear what to expect, when watching and when TASing. But the current SA3 publication is not that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I didn't initially ask the community about this movie becoming its own branch or not, so here it goes.
Here's what off-screen shooting allows you to do. You have several missions where you have to wait for an object to appear on the screen so you can shoot it, skipping the forced wait. Or you can shoot it right away outside the screen.
My initial impression was that off-screen shooting only skips the waiting time, and the change is not visible to the viewer anyway. But there's also an argument that the wait is skipped by shooting, in a shooting game, so it's a direct part of normal gameplay.
So the main question is, do we make this a new branch or do we obsolete [4923] Flash Sniper Assassin 3 "inbound mouse" by Spikestuff in 02:37.50? If new branch, then what's the defining criterion? There's no visible difference so it can't go to Alternative, but maybe results of the off-screen shooting can be considered a major skip glitch, hence making both movies go to Standard alongside each other? If the argument is that glitchless can be a new standard branch, both movies abuse a glitch that skips some levels due to fast shooting (tho I'd personally be interested in a glitchless branch).
#8110: Spikestuff's Flash Arsenal in 01:31.36 is in a pretty similar situation, barring glitch usage in the current publication: Post #521966
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I don't particularly remember what changed, but this run is definitely cool (pun unintended).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Saved 64 frames in the cave level by doing most things sooner:
User movie #638177837869179697
There are maybe other ways to tighten that level up, and probably other levels too.
We don't use rerecord count as argument in our judgments, but so far it does indeed feel like 3607 rerecords in 9.5 minutes is all that went into this submission (my rough test is already at 5k).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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lexikiq wrote:
As far as I'm aware, the precedent has typically been to only accept one ACE category, maybe a second for playaround. I could see there being different branches for different releases of a game in cases where there's significant vanilla gameplay difference but for a branch whose goal is basically to trigger the credits as fast as possible using any means (and any version) necessary? I don't really see a reason for it, it should just obsolete the NTSC run, imho.
My thinking too.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
and collect this one instead (which costs you 88 frames of detour)
I compared gameplay more closely, and it looks like you make better decisions, so your movie is still faster overall, but there's definitely room for more. And I personally prefer the SMS version because it has the benefit of a bigger screen (and presence of in-game HUD) while not having any obvious shortcomings.
Waiting for these two to finish their dialogue and run out:
My initial impression was that off-screen shooting only skips the waiting time, and the change is not visible to the viewer anyway. But there's also an argument that the wait is skipped by shooting, in a shooting game, so it's a direct part of normal gameplay.
So the main question is, do we make this a new branch or do we obsolete [4923] Flash Sniper Assassin 3 "inbound mouse" by Spikestuff in 02:37.50? If new branch, then what's the defining criterion? There's no visible difference so it can't go to Alternative, but maybe results of the off-screen shooting can be considered a major skip glitch, hence making both movies go to Standard alongside each other? If the argument is that glitchless can be a new standard branch, both movies abuse a glitch that skips some levels due to fast shooting (tho I'd personally be interested in a glitchless branch).