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Warp wrote:
In my books, once you start executing your own code, the game has ended. And since the game ended before reaching the end, the game wasn't completed.
The game isn't even relevant anymore at that point. It was simply used to inject code into the console. Which game was used for this becomes a moot point (other than by the technical details of how to inject code into the console using that particular game, but this has nothing to do with speedrunning and completing the game in question.)
My question is still this: Why is it bad to host such runs that our community members made exclusively for our community?
You guys talk about the rules, but if the cause is really worth it, rules can be exclusively bended:
[2558] SNES Super Metroid "GT code, game end glitch" by amaurea, Cpadolf, total in 14:52.88 is a terrific run everyone loves, and the debug code it uses was considered to be justified, due to that run's other merits. Why can't we extrapolate such approach for other runs that people put their TAS related effort into?
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The requiremements do exist, they just weren't yet clarified, written down and agreed upon, as it happened to sports games in vault. This run's judgment note makes it clear that we won't accept everything that's ACE. Just wait.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
Warp wrote:
Did you have something to actually contribute to the conversation?
Are you a mod or something?
So the answer is no, then? If you don't have anything to contribute, what are you doing here?
I'm contributing by giving your answers that you ignore.
Even the post that triggered you was an answer: things you keep asking for years aren't relevant anymore within the scope of ACE runs, and that's been the official policy for years as well. That's why I said that there's no such question here for this run. Whether it's a speedrun is officially not asked, nor is it cared about.
And your concern can not be resolved, because there's no way to change our ACE policies to make you happy. Just like there's no way to fix your views to make you happy with the ACE policies.
Now tell my why is that not contributing to the conversation.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
Did you have something to actually contribute to the conversation?
Are you a mod or something?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
that has relatively little bearing on the question of whether this is a speedrun at all
There's no such question here for this run.
Warp wrote:
it's not playing the game. That's what concerns me. That's why I'm so ambivalent about considering this any kind of TAS of the game.
Your concern can not be resolved.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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ThunderAxe31, look up some examples on my page. We do have relevant content and possibilities around, it just doesn't fit yet.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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thatguy wrote:
1) Have a specific tier for Demos. The sort of things that would be appropriate for this tier would be movies with tags like "Demonstration" and "Playaround".
2) A more radical version of the above, which accepts content which the current rules do not allow. This would significantly expand the remit of what tasvideos is all about.
3) Keep the status quo.
The point of this metacategory is to host runs that expand the internal gameplay using different sorts of tools and methods: software and hardware, and decide to showcase ideas behind those tools rather than pure gameplay being TASed. When actually implemented, those ideas become concepts, and such runs can thus be called concept demonstrations.
Focusing on those concepts can lead to breaking some rules that make the runs fit into Moons and Vault. If we move all runs that break those rules (but appear to be publication worthy otherwise) to the Demo tier, the overall clarity of the site content won't suffer, and all runs that could be questionable for laymen will be kept in a single area under special rules (and with special notice if needed).
We need some place where we could keep all the runs that break the rules of Moons and Vault. And since it's all about creativity and thinking outside of the box when one comes up with a new concept, you never know what rule will be broken next.
ACE runs that aim for showcasing some payload don't have to beat the game. They can trigger the ending routine by manipulating the game state directly, but this should not be the point of the run: the payload should be.
Some Demo tier runs could break the rule that bans cheat codes. And my page describes the grounds to accept such runs on. If the criteria aren't met, the run should not be published.
The point of having the criteria is that if we can't define the goal for the Demo tier, we won't even know what we want to have there. So I define it this way: Expanding the game software or hardware in some way only makes sense if it is a part of some concept that's being demonstrated. So just like we assess the quality of optimization and entertainment level of a run, we can just as well asses the qualities of the concept. And if it meets the criteria, we should publish it as a Concept Demonstration.
Warp: anything you could come up with can be checked against these criteria and that way we could figure out whether we want this published or not.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Yep.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
Maybe "devolve" is not the perfect word, but it seems to me that the rules of what constitutes an acceptable submission are being loosened and loosened as time passes. At this point it seems that almost anything is acceptable, as long as it's "cool". There is no "it must break all existing records" nor "it must complete the game" requirements anymore. Heck, it doesn't even need to actually play the game anymore. The game itself has become almost irrelevant, in many ACE cases.
The site might "devolve" (for the lack of a better word) into just a demo compo website, with a twist.
That's why I asked where the limit is. If there is no limit, then that might just as well happen. Everybody will just start coding their old-console demos and inject them into the consoles.
The very fact that such runs are accepted at all, in one form of another, is because they are just movies made with usual TAS tools. This is what we call superplay in a general sense: hand-crafted emulator movie. True also mentioned meta-gaming:
True wrote:
The art of TAS has surpassed merely playing a game. TASing is the game itself, and sometimes even that is eclipsed by making things play that game for you too. Metagaming of sorts.
The best players of this game know how to break all the rules, and do so as a matter of course; this necessitates understanding the architecture and peculiarities of the target, and of the tools used to work said target.
Generally, this means understanding how to write computer code. This is because it often means knowing how to tear these platforms and code apart (see the post by feos), as much as it does writing your own.
It so happened that our movies also have been "optimized versions of real-time attacks". This is the narrow sense of superplay: optimized game playthrough.
You like the former. No problem, we are publishing such runs and will keep publishing them forever, as long as they entertain the viewers. This is what we have different branches for (as I already explained to you a year ago with a list).
Other people like other forms of superplay. No problem, we are publishing them too and will keep publishing them forever, as long as they entertain the audience.
No one loses nothing, everybody wins. The site is just conceptually growing.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
Will tasvideos.org just devolve into a publication site for people's console demos?
Why are you calling it devolving? You think the work dwangoAC and the tas block team showcased at the marathons is degrading the community?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This run won't go to Moons in its current form it seems. However when you have no limits on speeding this up, death abuse is welcome.
But when you apply it, I suggest you this: before you die play pacifist, then when you sacrifice yourself, get mad and kill everything you possibly can. In the next level where you need to die do the same switching. This will add variety and density.
Also, with such a huge improvement possibility, I don't think I can accept it to the Vault right now, even though the whole run will have to be redone.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
What I see happening here is demo programming being published in the guise of it being a "tool-assisted speedrun". Where do we draw the line? How many such submissions need to be submitted before we start putting limits? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? How many?
Once again, the demo is impressive. I'm just asking if it's "off topic" here, and how much is too much (or, rather, how many are too many).
Arbitrary limits won't apply here, as one can't predict and measure the predicted creativity of others. Probably when people have enough fun with arbitrary payload, they will start inventing conceptually new applications of total control.
Even then, it will only make sense to limit it if we see runs that present a similar concept. So just like in current Moons, we will be able to naturally limit it by merging similar runs, but allow unique ones at the same time.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I moved TASEncodingPackage to github some time ago, and per Fog's suggestion, I switched to this direct zip link, that will always have all the latest files:
https://github.com/vadosnaprimer/TASEncodingPackage/archive/master.zip
Also note that it's not TEP2 anymore, because freesub started working for me again, so I switched back to it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Meerkov, any news on this?
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Any opinions on this run's entertainment value, people?
I personally voted Meh, because while the run does cool stuff, it's all the same conceptually throughout the movie, so it gets old fast.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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What Alyosha said please.
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I don't understand. I tried improving this run and I couldn't. Can something else be different here? Anyway I'd be interested in seeing someone manage to beat this time in the same conditions.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Links?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Beefster wrote:
We currently have RAM searching, but it's a little primitive. It works well for some things where you expect a specific value or a clear change, such as position or HP. However it's a bit more difficult to find more elusive things like RNG, leaving us to throw spaghetti at the wall with rerecords until we get what we want.
Well, at first you record 2 versions of the movie with some even occurring and not occurring, and find its ram value, then you just see when it's written to (a breakpoint) and tracelog that frame for both scenarios. You examine them side-by-side going back in time. That's quite an effective way to fund the real RNG affected. Repeat every time you see something that you can't explain or predict and in the end it's all written down and clear.
Here's my take on reverse engineering involved in tasing:
http://tasvideos.org/ReverseEngineering.html
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Record the final inputs and upload the movie to userfiles. I'll replace the submission.
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What's with this run's ending?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Just recently Nach implemented my old request of auto-reporting the time difference for publications that obsolete something.
So now, when you pick the movie to be obsoleted from the dropdown list when you're publishing something, in addition to copying the description and movie classes from the obsoleted run, it will also report the time difference in the form of a frames module:
Improved by [module:frames|amount=3522] seconds.
Exceptions are DOS, MSX, GameCube and Wii. DOS and MSX framecounts are artificial, as those systems don't have reliable constant refresh rate and can change it on the fly. The site parses their real time instead and synthesizes the framecount out of that, assuming 60 fps (while most DOS games run at ~70). GCN and Wii framecounts that the site parses are input poll counts, the actual time is determined by the tick count, which isn't part of the usual submission info. So for these 4 platforms, the improvement is reported as plain time difference:
Improved by 1:58.70 minutes.
Do not the leave the automated report as is!
1. Rephrase it to fit into the actual description.
2. Add the intended region (ntsc or pal) as the fps argument:
Improved by [module:frames|amount=3522|fps=ntsc] seconds.
That will make the site use the framerate from the database for the platform the movie belongs to.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Meerkov wrote:
Yeah his does look faster than mine. Not sure what the policy is here. Clearly I have room for improvement still, but my run is faster than the site record.
I can try to reach out to them and see if I can get a copy of the movie file...
Must beat all known unassisted records and beat or match all known tool-assisted records.
In rare cases, there will be a sloppier movie that is faster than a more optimized movie due to the use of a major skip discovery. In this case, the faster of the two movies is preferred.
So if your movie was faster than all known records, but not optimized to maximum, it could've been accepted to Vault, where this game belongs. But your run isn't a speed record it seems. So yeah, reach out to the guy.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
