It won't be published into moons, because it's not entertainment, and it's not speed run -> so it rejected. Yes I would accept any arbitrary goal for every possible game, if it's interesting, and high quality (very optimized... may be some more technical requirements). But, indeed, only if it does makes any sense. I don't care about inundating this site. If you look into not obsoleted runs - there are not so many of them.
> if it's interesting, and high quality
> interesting
...Now that I think about it, forget I said that. My point was that there could be things like Donkey Kong Country "ONG%" or Sonic the Hedgehog "all rings except for 394 of them" coming through, but I'm sure people would just ask for any really arbitrary categories not to be published.
As for everything else, fair enough. I don't think it's necessary for me to read the Judge Guidelines another time, though, especially when it's in response to a new system that might not even happen.
I linked it because we are currently dealing with all the questions you've posted very well. It's only a matter of how it's set up.
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Samsara wrote:
I'm probably seriously overthinking this, to be honest.
Everything remains 100% the same in that regard:
Samsara wrote:
How would obsoletions be handled for things like playarounds?
Playarounds are obsoleted if more entertaining. They are side goals, aim for entertainment.
Samsara wrote:
Does this allow for more ROMhacks?
ROM hacks/howmebrews/bootlegs are "vaultable" if they have significance, then they are "coinable" on the same exact grounds - a speed record for a significant ROM hack/howmebrew/bootleg.
Samsara wrote:
If someone just makes up a brand new arbitrary category and people find it entertaining/optimal, does it still get published or does it have to have some sort of importance?
What?
Samsara wrote:
Would there be a limit on new categories for games?
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Samsara wrote:
Warp wrote:
It seems to me that we may be reaching a consensus where the Vault tier will be renamed and the distinction between the new "Vault" and the Moon tiers will be changed to be about goals rather than about reception. So, in a sense, a big part of the current Moon runs will be merged to the "new Vault" (whatever its new name will be; "coins" seems to be a popular suggestion, but personally I find it a bit odd...) and the rest of the Moon runs will remain where they are.
Perhaps the poll options should reflect this possibility more clearly?
I think the "Rename Vault/change its appearance" reflects that possibility.
Speaking of, I kinda like that idea but I feel like it'd have to be really fleshed out to work: If the criteria is just "not any% or 100% for Moons" then how much would we be accepting? Would this be the (if my memory serves me correctly) often asked for Demo Tier/Playaround Tier or would it just follow the same criteria we have now? It wouldn't be like just renaming Vault to something more positive: It'd change the actual tiering system altogether, and if the guidelines and qualifications didn't change with it then I feel like it'd be somewhat arbitrary. A big step what I feel is the right direction, but still somewhat arbitrary.
Is this not fleshed out? It handles everything exactly as we do now, but removes all the hardship we're having. In other words, elaborate.
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Warp wrote:
(Btw, I still think that the "star tier" should be special. It shouldn't be considered just a "better-than-Moon tier". Basically any TAS ought to be eligible for a star if it showcases something representative we want to show. Having extremely high ratings can (and will usually) overlap with the Star tier, but it's not a requirement. Not all highest-rated run will necessarily get a star, and not all star runs will necessarily be on the very top of the rating list.)
With tiers tied to goals it's what will happen. Fastest possible any% and 100% runs that are already starred will showcase that. BTW, then the system is no longer
(Stars)
ideal anything
/ \
(Coins) (Moons)
speed entertaining
records side goals
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feos wrote:
Warp wrote:
Which gives me the idea: Change the tiers to "the any%/100% tier" and "the everything else tier". (I don't have good ideas for the actual names.)
I like it! Here we could finally throw away the scary Vault icon and replace it with
putting ALL any%/100% runs there, making it a real default tier, with Moons and Stars being moved to for good and superb entertainment value respectively. Another option is to move to Moons only all runs of of the side goals. Goal is indeed a non-arbitrary borderline!
This way we could return the old question: "Should this run be published?". It would just mean different things depending on the branch:
- If it's a speed record, people vote for its optimality
- If it's a side goal, people vote for both entertainment value and optimality.
Because if (and only if) a speed record is not optimal, it will be rejected. Otherwise go to Coins.
If a side goal is optimal but boring, it will be rejected. If a side goal is enjoyable but suboptimal, it will be rejected. Otherwise go to Moons.
Pretty simple, huh?
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LOVED THE RUN! LOVED THE ENDING! ALL WHO DISAGREE ARE PONIES!!!
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Warp wrote:
Which gives me the idea: Change the tiers to "the any%/100% tier" and "the everything else tier". (I don't have good ideas for the actual names.)
I like it! Here we could finally throw away the scary Vault icon and replace it with
putting ALL any%/100% runs there, making it a real default tier, with Moons and Stars being moved to for good and superb entertainment value respectively. Another option is to move to Moons only all runs of of the side goals. Goal is indeed a non-arbitrary borderline!
Then, as a separate system, we can allow sorting by certain rating. So subjective stuff won't be mixed in and argued about. Unvaultable goals will still stand, entertainment value will still stand. All happy :D
EDIT:
"Coin" is awesome as well! All the tier system then can be described in a couple sentences with no option to get it wrong.
EDIT:
r57shell wrote:
RATE ME makes more sense yes, but if you think that two months old run is really old, then I can't say anything. I don't think that there are so many people who every day checking new publicaitons. If you will keep such runs with NEW tag, people who look once in two month would be able to check and watch them.
Agreeing now. Like, a "New" flag, that shows you a popup text "RATE ME!" when you hover at it.
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There is no explanation. It all was that "undefined behavior" of tier judging system (for the infamous borderline cases (see the relevant thread)).
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I've read only a few posts, but I have an impression we're mixing everything possible in one monstrous issue.
First of all, the main problems always was and still is with borderline cases. Those are exactly what got people complain about rejection through pages. Those are exactly what still causes rejection if the goal is unvaultable. Those are what makes the Vault look bad - runs that don't look deadly bad get placed there.
Then, we still are uncertain about the criteria. But what else do we have besides judge's notion, crowd's voting, posts and ratings? Nothing. So we must take it into account, just try to do it wise.
I suggest to add an undefined tier. It's like postponing the tier judgment until it's more obvious. And if it's not, not make it at all!
Things suddenly look resolved: definitely bad runs still go to where only few people care about them, definitely good ones go to where all see them. Undefined-tier runs go to the Moons area, but have some icon on them shouting NEW or RATE ME. RATE ME makes more sense, because it can still have little to no ratings after a year, when it's in no way NEW anymore. Also, putting them with Moons gives them more chances to be noticed and rated.
The only 2 problems that are possible here are:
- ambiguity of what is ambiguous (how do we know it needs to go to the undefined tier?) and
- should that tier be used to accept unvaultable runs of uncertain entertainment value (pretending they will be Moons, to justify acceptance)?
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I request that this topic is moved to Labs.
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People keep taking the rating borderline seriously (and will do) because that "arbitrary" choice was somehow only partially arbitrary. It had a solid vision behind it, and it has it for the rest people. 6.0 for entertainment is a Moon run, it's just how people are taking it (including me), simply because they have the idea of how a clear Vault and a clear Moon runs look like, how entertaining they are.
So we can still judge in a similar fashion. And it appears, this run does indeed belong to Vault, because most of the raters didn't give it 6 or more for entertainment. I do believe they also consider 6+ a Moon rating, and intentionally don't give it.
turska: this is a weird case. Vocal feedback would have been the same (clear Moons), and the ratings will still disparage it. One can never be sure, because:
[2214] Coleco Jumpman Junior by adelikat in 04:48.58
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ALAKTORN wrote:
Knowing programming languages doesn't help you in figuring out RNG
This is just wrong, though. Disassembling requires programming knowledge.
Disassembling requires looking up opcode mnemonics. And ASM has little to do with what most people understand by the term "programming languages". Also, you can't really learn ASM (only basics of how it works), since it varies so much, especially on consoles. Disassembling requires knowing what to do with debugger.
True wrote:
The art of TAS has surpassed merely playing a game. TASing is the game itself, and sometimes even that is eclipsed by making things play that game for you too. Metagaming of sorts.
The best players of this game know how to break all the rules, and this necessitates understanding the architecture and peculiarities of the target, and of the tools used to work said target.
Amazing quote! Added to the page.
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http://tasvideos.org/ReverseEngineering.html
Knowing programming languages doesn't help you in figuring out RNG, because games are in ASM (unless you really want to learn that good luck MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA). It only helps you write good lua scripts, but writing good lua scripts can be very much learned from reading good lua scripts written by others (and editing them). That was my path: TASing => Lua => Debugging => C.
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Spike: give me the links and I'll publish it or something.
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Can't seem to find anything relevant, all the current bugs will stay.
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Spikestuff wrote:
Hey... feos, would you fix pcsx-rr/psxjin to do Bugs Bunny: Lost in Time?
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For now I only can say that it sounds slightly less wrong with the included tasSPU(-f). Some video plugins give errors too, but tasGPU looks okay. Looking deeper into it now...
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Teamplayer позволяет влючить, но дается ли ему конфиг клавиш без понятия. Думаю если репортнуть, добавят.
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Не будущее, а этапная хата. Но так или иначе фичи будут.
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BimmyLee he extracted the files out of a bk2 and put them in a folder, then zipped that
BimmyLee and is now saying that's just how it came out of bizhawk
LexSfX lol
LexSfX bizhawk just doesn't do that
feos it's a hidden feature
feos it coded it into itself itself
LexSfX intelligent fuckwittery
feos what it will do next? kill?
LexSfX it will enslave us all... by making us confused about mundane tasks
feos access banking activities?
BimmyLee <_<
BimmyLee step 1: get everyone using bizhawk
BimmyLee step 3: world domination
LexSfX step 2: intelligent fuckwittery
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Со странной физикой надо бороться современными инструментами. Тастудия бизхока уже совсем близко (тестируем, готовим). А ядро сеги у него теперь самое лучшее (из тасабельных).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
putting ALL any%/100% runs there, making it a real default tier, with Moons and Stars being moved to for good and superb entertainment value respectively. Another option is to move to Moons only all runs of of the side goals. Goal is indeed a non-arbitrary borderline!
Music/sounds are still glitchy, otherwise it works.
http://code.google.com/p/feos-tas/source/browse/trunk/Misc/pcsx-13f.7z