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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Man, just visit this topic and read the questions resyncing raises. It already exists, it would help TASers that used to do serious projects on snes9x 1.43. We need to know what to do with it on a site level, not on a level of occasional submissions.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Publishing not an improvement is silly.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Try reading the edits.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Better now?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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9 people disliked the glitched ending. 6 people liked it specifically. 7 people had no problems with the glitched ending and voted Yes for what was originally submitted, not mentioning the ending preference. 5 want two versions published alongside. 1 wants the glitched one to be replaced. People having no distraction by the glitched ending can be accounted as those who agree with publishing it. But the dislikers also were active, so the second youtuber is added. What is the problem I don't understand now? That the glitched one is not removed? Removing it was requested by a single person. That the clean ending is not encoded for downloadables? It can be done anytime. That the clean one is not primary? The opinions are slightly on the glitched one's side.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Wait, you disagree to have the clean ending as the second youtuber in the publication?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The argument that it is easy to understand for majority isn't equal to being asked by majority of forum posters. We can't rely on silent people while making submission decisions, we account what posters say and weight their words to make the decision sane to the most people. We also can not depend on people saying on youtube "tasing is cheating because I can't do that". If they want to know what happens, they read the info we make sure to provide. Otherwise, ignorance is their own fault
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I agree that pressing cardinal directions is a different universe than the games were written for. I agree that it's not an oversight of a developer. But here we have to deal with the reality that already exists, and while not being okay with it, we still always need to investigate it to find the internal flaws if they exist. The concept that exists now for almost 10 years and that no one of the actual TASers disagreed with so far is: - Game code can not be modified, it is taken as is. - Controls the game can handle are all considered legal. I mention that not because I think so personally (though I do), it is just how it is for all these years. I now also see that there is a huge similarity between using the buttons not present on the primary controller and by using the ones that are present but can't be pressed at once. The legality of these 2 cases seems equal to me. But there are 2 ways to merit this very legality. 1.1. Abstraction says that nothing can be taken with absolute seriousness, since then it will always contradict something else. And if 2 different people take 2 contrary things with absolute seriousness, they will always argue hard with no constructive result. So sometimes we need to shut our eyes to some minor improbability to achieve something much more enjoyable and important. For example, the game determinism as we completely rely on here does not exist in reality. "TASing became feasible because of general assumption that behavior of a game is always determined by its initial state and player's input, and nothing else". In fact, the game behavior can depend also on how much dust covers a disc, what is the room temperature, and whatever else. There are enough factors that can break the console syncability, games can behave differently even from load to load with all the similar timing. But it all has no way to be accounted, so our emulators only account for the initial state and user input, and if they match, the game does the same as well. This is where perfect emulation starts contradicting perfect determinism. At TASVideos we need both hard, so we can't actually achieve both equally perfect. Some will need to be sacrificed (accuracy most likely). 1.2. Abstraction is critical for actual users (TASers), because they need something to rely on completely before they start serious work. Note how many problems people have with sync unstable emulators. Determinism is what provides them a comfortable environment for productive work. Accuracy is a bonus we can afford as emulation is being developed. It is also a paradigm of creating TASes. We must abstract from the internal game rules as much as possible, because then we could find the tricks that are improbably to discover playing by the intended rules. And there are 2 ways to make the game do something: hacking its memory/code (illegal) and sending it controls it can handle (legal). TASers are in fact dealing with the stripped game code and ignore a good portion of the rest. There always can appear a TAS that refuses to use simultaneous presses, reset+saving, zipping, whatever. It would always have a right to be published if the viewers like it. But not to degree of banning the use of what it refuses to use. All are happy. 2. Technically, there are official Nintendo controllers that allow pressing any amount of buttons at once, and have more buttons than the primary controllers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Pad So when banning some aspect we may easily discover it is actually not worth banning and is acceptable. And here abstraction once again pops up: nothing can be considered 100% perfect.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Slowking wrote:
I always thought tasvideos was about making entertaining movies for everybody.
Unfortunately, being entertaining for everybody can not ever be reached, and this is never claimed. There is a goal to annoy the viewer as little as possible, but it concerns the quality of encodes. It is nowhere said to TASers: "Satisfy as much people as possible with your run". Here we don't have strong dislike of the ending, it's only a bit controversial, and most of dislikers agree to have an alternate encode, no? Very few people say "Publish the clean ending primarily", and even if they do, we can not rely on the minority, because then much more people would be annoyed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Super accuracy becomes critical with super glitchy/tricky TASes. We can't actually pretend on pushing the games limits if we have them not as they are on console. That can be tolerable for average level of TASing, for test WIPs, but not for super high quality projects. Of course some insane degree can not be reached, but improving is still improving.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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creaothceann wrote:
AnS wrote:
But can you guarantee the archive will be available, say, in 5-10 years?
Archive emulator along with movie file.
I like that idea as a part of publishing process for SPECIAL cases. We need a repo for that, like tastools.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I want to emphasize my initial point that it is not expected to become a daily routine. Resyncing shall only be done if the old emulator is really worse and the new one is really better. Say, if the old one gets banned (disallowing further submissions on it) or deprecated (moving to banned in some years/months). The point is to help the real TASers move to new emulators with less pain. And the effort must be done primarily when it is critical. Then, if someone feels like it, he may try tweaking some of the existing movies to sync on newer emulators. But I see the sanity border here: Resyncing per emulator release is 100% pointless. Only between really old emulator and really new. It still must be more serious effort and with more serious grounds. This is why I support co-authorship. It vastly helps the original tasers to move to a new emulator (SMW+snes9x case), becoming a member of the game TAS team.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I guess the problem is that there are no TASers among main Dolphin developers. So it is not a tasvideos emulator, but just the one that we are able to use occasionally. So we can't expect TOO MUCH from it. Some rules must be softened, but the most sane decision is to be developed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Most of dislikers stated they would be fine with having the non-glitched encode present somewhere in the publication. I'm not sure if it must be linked as usual or just from the description text. Since it would actually be two different movies, I prefer the text link. And yes, I will be glad to accept the current ending as the main movie.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This is why I have it so much branched. If it is slower, it is only a conversion and must be hosted nearby. If it is faster due to lag frames in non-gameplay places or something, it's not an improvement and must be hosted nearby. Co-authorship may easily be unequal (one person tases 1 level, another tases 50, both are credited). Spending effort on converting a movie for a new emulator, and on making the one that would satisfy the experts - is really quite some work. But I want to know the sanity borders.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Official support of dev builds and patches
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It was pointed out on IRC that we need to clarify the rule about emulator versions officially supported (accepted) at TASVideos. For stable emulators it is clear, builds from side hostings done from random source code revisions are just unreliable, the movies done on them can desync on official releases, etc. But there are emulators that emulate some messy platforms already (Hourglass, Dolphin, openMSX), their developers may use to have dev builds repo with latest tweaks added, but unstable overall. In some cases, even the only chance to get a game working right is to use an interim or a patched build. And we are only able to publish Dolphin submissions by applying some unofficial hacks here and there. So not only having hacks and patches support is critical, but it is how things already are with these platforms. Some say we still must stick to official releases only to allow viewers to watch movies. Again, true only for movies that are relatively easy to set up in the first place. Custom users will unlikely be able to set up Dolphin to playback or sync straight away. The same goes about TASers: they have to be skilled enough just to handle Dolphin, and if they succeed and submit, we must respect such effort. Sure, if that question raised some year ago, the current situation might be better. But for now, I personally was suggesting TASVideos support for dev builds that can be obtained from an official emulator repo directly. Guys in IRC suggested to fork dolphin to host TASABLE version separately from the official mess, still including every fix the devs apply, and making sure they are still tasable. Please provide ideas about the best way all that can be handled, or I reject Resident Evil 4 for using 3.5679479938907 the current rules are too ambiguous by saying dev builds aren't allowed and still accepting all dev build submissions of modern platforms.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Resyncing movies officially http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14178 Let's move the constructive discussion there.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Resyncing movies officially
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Yet this had almost no examples. But as we move to the improved emulators, there may appear some people that wish to try improving a movie from an old emulator AND make it on a new one - at once. Sometimes they succeed right away - they find improvements, the new movie obsoletes the old one, everyone is happy. But there are high chances that the existing movie is so tight no improvements are found. And even resyncing the strats or the exact same input requires some delays due to improved accuracy. All the above is relevant only when we are really moving to more accurate emulators. For two (almost) equally accurate emulators, there must not be any resync work I guess. So here I suggest to work out our new setup for handling resynced for better emulator movies. My ideas: - Make sure the emulator used to resync on is really better in all ways. There must be some official statement declaring movies of which emulators can be resynced for which emulators. Say, any snes9x movie can be tried to resync on BizHawk or lsnes. But there is no way BizHawk NES emulation can obsolete FCEUX NES emulation right away. Yet. - - If the above is checked, examine the following. - Is any time saved overall? - - If it is a real-time improvement, there is no point to argue, it's an improvement. But it is still needed to know if this is a gameplay improvement, or just a resync luck that affected some lags or RNG on a better core. True gameplay improvement must obsolete the existing movie. Technically lucky resync must be judged as the following. - - If no time is saved, it must be precisely examined whether all the gameplay time savers of the existing movie were applied or not. Experts of that game must be asked, precise statistics must be prepared on where and why the time was lost. Such a submission is no more under a standard discussion. The new question is: Is it a fair and successful resync for the improved emulator? - - - If the experts conclude that it's not, it is rejected. - - - If they find it really was a fair and legit resync attempt, the following goes. - That movie file gets added to the existing publication, adding the author of resync to the current movie author. The note on what this second movie is are written in the publication description. - If someone then makes an improvement over the resynced movie on the same (better) emulator, we watch if it is faster than the original movie or not. - - If it is slower than the original (old emulator) movie, only the second file is replaced. Another author is added if needed. - - If it is faster than the original movie, yay, we finally got it! Obsolete the whole publication. - - If it is slower than both, reject.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I'm going to accept this movie to Vault. Still need to try syncing it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Okay, my opinion for now. This movie must replace the very file in the current publication. Masterjun must be added as a co-author. This submission must be canceled afterwards. Or set to published and lead to the current movie in all links. Tasvideos yet has no setup for such things. EDIT: All I say implies lsnes has really BETTER emulation of this game than vba. If they are equal, or the domination is unknown, I see no point in replacing the existing movie. EDIT: Also, after reading this post I tweaked my mind and now I support just ADDING another movie file to the publication (still crediting both co-authors), and commenting in the description which one stands for what. EDIT: Now about the question. As a judge, I find the current question and the poll results 100% relevant to the future decision and sane internally. Here I described how to use them right.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Use the AviSynth download link right from the Manual. It leads you to 2.6 alpha release.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Good thing I didn't pick it for judging. I agree with BOTH sides!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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