Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
I enjoyed it. Low Z presses for an RPG sounds ludicrous but if anything can make it work, this would definitely be the game and category since the low amount of Z presses does not bog it down with lengthy unskipped cutscenes or dialogue and the techniques exclusive to this category aren't seen in other runs.
Comparing to the vanilla Genocide TAS I found this more interesting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
This movie currently obsoletes the "sketch glitch" run. I strongly disagree with this verdict and request clarification for the following reasons:
1) We accept all kinds of glitched endings, and very rarely reject unusual endings. What about softlocks at some point during the ending scene? The one submission that was rejected for having an invalid ending that I recall is that Pokémon Yellow submission that froze the game and failed to save the game as usually happens when entering the Hall of Fame, which was considered an essential part of the ending for Pokémon Yellow.
I do not think a softlock 80-90% into the ending like in this submission's original movie file or the "sketch glitch" movie constitutes an invalid game completition. The ending sequence is very clearly triggered and runs most for the majority of its duration. Further, I would argue that the glitched ending of the "sketch glitch" movie is slightly MORE valid than a similarly softlocked ending in the original movie file of this submission, since that run fights and beats the final boss after completing the final dungeon, rather than directly triggering the ending scene.
2) ACE or "game end glitch", in general, does not obsolete other branches of games and is published alongside them as separate categories. I heard on IRC from fsvgm777 (not from ars4326 directly - the verdict does not cover any of these issues) that the deciding factor in the obsoletion was that the "sketch glitch" movie's ending was considered less valid. Even if the ending were slightly less valid than that of the replaced movie file in this submission, I do not believe that it justifies overriding the usual policy of allowing both ACE and other categories to coexist. An additional reason for not obsoleting besides followoing the usual category rules is that that this submission is Vault-level in entertainment, while the "sketch glitch" run is much more entertaining.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
To export subtitles from an LSMV movie file, you can do the following:
1) Load the movie file you want to export subtitles from in lsnes.
2) Navigate to File -> Save -> Subtitles in the menu bar. This will bring up a file dialog, allowing you to export the subtitles to the .sub format.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
Samsara, you make a good point about the rules of co-authorship: the only hard rules are that plagiarism and very low-effort improvements are not allowed.
Here are the authorship rules - emphasis on the ones that apply to this submission:
Movie Rules wrote:
The movie must be properly attributed
Do what is better for the audience, not yourself. Trying to get your name on the site at all costs will not make you popular. TASVideos aims to remain a polite community, so certain offenses are regulated by rules.
Do not claim authorship for something you haven't made
Taking another user's movie and submitting it under your name is strictly forbidden. Such offense is potential grounds for a ban.
This doesn't apply to situations where a similar or identical solution is discovered and implemented independently.
A modicum of effort is required
Taking another user's movie and trimming or changing the last few frames is strongly discouraged if it doesn't make the movie reach the winning condition any sooner. Such movie will likely be rejected during the grace period on the similar grounds as above.
If there is an oversight that requires an easy fix at the end of the published movie, it is much more preferable to notify its author first, and see if they want to implement it themself. If not, it would still be preferable to attribute the new movie as co-authored. See the next paragraph for elaboration.
Crediting other users' contribution
There are no exact rules that estimate the significance of each contribution, but it's generally accepted that if you simply copy large chunks of gameplay from an earlier movie as they are, that effectively makes a new submission coauthored. Authorship isn't enforced, but the audience might become unhappy if you don't give credit where it's due. If unsure, consult with a judge.
This notion is relaxed in sub-second improvements (commonly referred to as "frame wars"), as copying large parts of gameplay from previous generations of such TAS becomes less and less avoidable with each subsequent generation.
Outside submissions that involve plagiarism, low-effort improvements, or other conflicts, judges generally don't enforce co-authorship one way or the other. Deciding what qualifies as co-authorship is left to the submitter; it can be strictly based on input and who worked on the movie, or include indirect contributions or past work on the game if the submitter finds it appropriate.
For this submission, I don't think enforcing a particular view of co-authorship would properly address the larger issue of potentially obsoleting NES DK. Obsoleting NES DK while enforcing co-authorship for compensation seems wishy-washy and circumstantial; what if the existing NES Donkey Kong movie was made by adelikat, or Phil had made this movie? The authorship of a movie should not factor into the decision of which version of a game is preferred for TASing.
If NES DK were obsoleted by DKOE, Phil would still maintain authorship over the NES Donkey Kong movie and retain the fastest tool-assisted record in that version.
Another consideration is [2727] SNES Classic Kong Complete by Fortranm in 02:12.76, a homebrew SNES port of Donkey Kong. If DKOE and DK NES were both kept, we'd have three published ports of Donkey Kong, of which the two NES versions are very similar.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
With all four levels included, Donkey Kong Original Edition is a more complete port of the original game than NES Donkey Kong. The published TAS of Donkey Kong ([1352] NES Donkey Kong by Phil in 01:08.67) represents a subset of this movie; all levels in it it are also completed in this TAS. DK Original Edition and NES DK are both ports of the original Donkey Kong - since the former is more complete, it could be the preferred version and obsolete NES Donkey Kong.
Tiering is also difficult - 841M was automatically placed in Moons due to its rating when the tiering system was introduced. However, the Donkey Kong Original Edition "100%" TAS was published in the Vault; by modern standards, Donkey Kong might be a Vault-worthy game choice, and this run doesn't look very different from the 100% branch.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
It seems like the Warp speed setting in CD-Man is not capped, and mostly dependent on system speed. Tested in JPC-RR and Dosbox by adjusting emulated CPU speed; with CPUDIVIDER 250, the game moves at around two moves per frame - as opposed to the twelve per frame of this movie, which uses the default speed (CPUDIVIDER 50). Dosbox also slows down when emulating a slower system, and at 500-600 cycles, the Warp speed is even playable in real-time.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
I've replaced the movie file with the updated one.
franpa wrote:
"Note: When writing something that affects the processing of this movie, please edit the submission instead of posting at the forum."
For movie file replacement, posting on the forum is more visible. In general, posting in the workbench thread and editing the submission text are both fine and should get the message across.
I liked the run a lot. Defining 100% is always difficult in an RPG - this definition makes for an entertaining TAS with very little downtime while including everything that leaves a visible mark, which seems reasonable.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
If doing DTC bi-yearly, perhaps the Midsummer Night's Dream Team Contest could have a shorter time and a less time-consuming game choice to compensate - two 8-10 week competitions every year would result in a competition being active for 16-20 weeks of the year, which sounds a bit excessive.
Interestingly, the #1 and #2 movies had the fewest rerecords out of the submissions; and the bottom two had the most. They may not be accurate, but it's a surprising coincidence.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
Courtesy of fsvgm777, there is now a temporary encode embedded in the submission text.
This run looks like a bit of a borderline case.
On one hand, the boss fights are entertaining with great stylistic decisions, and the stages are completed quickly enough that they don't detract too much from the bosses.
On the other hand, the stages almost look too easy with the player rapidly rushing through the stationary enemies while preventing enemies from spawning. The submap warp mechanic also isn't the most entertaining thing to look at.
After playing the game for a bit, the dismantling of the stages looks a lot more impressive with the amount of enemies the game normally throws at you.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
I have split the encoding discussion from this submission thread to the Encoder's Corner. Feel free to post temporary encodes on the Workbench and discuss encoding issues with runs; howewer, further technical support for Samlaptop should go to Encoder's Corner.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
I'd like to interject that the rules on that page aren't the only ones that apply to this submission - after watching the run, this looks like a Vault run in the entertainment department, so the game choice rules for the Vault would also apply. Specifically, the following:
Hacks (defined as being modifications of an existing eligible game) are not eligible for this category. We demand hacks with entertainment value, therefore they are judged by the Moon tier requirements.
Unlicensed and homebrew games are eligible but may be judged on a game-by-game basis based on their notability.
Since this game is not a hack, the first rule is not applicable. Instead, what determines this game's eligibility for Vault as a homebrew game is its notability; googling the game produces some results, including around 30000 download hits for v2.0 on its googlecode page. Going by that, it seems notable enough to qualify for the Vault in my opinion.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
thecoreyburton wrote:
Fantastic run! Still one of my favorites.
Sorry to bump this back from the depths of hell, but does anyone have a copy of the image used? Downloading 1.0 gives me the wrong image ID (from various sources including the one provided), despite each of the files having the correct checksum and size.
I've uploaded the disk image linked in the submission text again:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/52397711/keen4_hdd
The image is generated using the default settings for a hard disk image. If the file checksums are correct but the disk still doesn't match, it could be you made a floppy disk image (which is the default in the import image dialog) instead of a hard disk image.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
andypanther wrote:
It's understandable to have separate categories for this, but I really don't like the naming that spoils what glitch is used, instead of saying what glitch isn't used in the name of the less-glitched category. But whatever, a title doesn't make a TAS worse or anything.
I'm open to suggestions for the branch name. I prefer "sketch glitch" since the glitch has some complex effects, resulting in warping and many other things in this run; the less specific "warp glitch" could also be an option. The sketch glitch is quite famous, so I don't think it is that big of a spoiler to have it in the branch name.
Spoiler-wise, whether this run or the lower-glitch run is labeled "X glitch" or "no X glitch" makes little difference, as the movie page displays other runs of the game in plain sight right next to the movie, spoiling the other branches' names and by extension, the glitch that the other run abuses.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
jlun2 wrote:
Accepting for publication to Moons in a new "sketch glitch" branch.
So...does this mean the old run will stay and this glitch be banned from competing against it? :|
Edit:
From the movie page:
A glitch involving Relm’s sketch ability was not used in this run. It is highly questionable whether or not this glitch can actually be used to save time. Also the glitch cannot be performed on this version of the ROM.
This is highly hilarious in hindsight.
As Patashu said, this movie abuses a major memory corruption glitch to skip the latter half of the game, waltz through the final dungeon, and beat the final boss in an unexpected fashion - in a rather spectacular way. For Moons movies, site policy is quite inclusive with branches, including having separate branches for varying levels of glitchiness. Final Fantasy IV's warp glitch run from earlier this year is a similar case to this, for an example.
The sketch glitch being banned from competing against a lower-glitch run is a way to think about it. On the other hand, it allows both any% and lower-glitch runs that show off different strategies and parts of the game to be published alongside each other; if the current run were obsoleted, it would result in a lower-glitch run being barred from publication altogether, which would be a loss in my opinion.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
I was browsing the Vault, and I'm not seeing a negative presentation - in fact, many of the runs are presented nicely with good descriptions and have over 10 votes (not at all ignored compared to the typical Moons movie). Howewer, there are a handful that are described with duller one-liners.
Regardless of changes or lack thereof to the tier system or front page presentation, that's something we can all edit to improve - a nice description makes any run that much more visible in the list, and makes a visitor more likely to watch it. I'm going to shamelessly plug [2119] DOS Avoid the Noid by turska & Ilari in 03:33.52 - the game might be obscure and on the wrong side of the entertainment fence, but the ridiculous premise of the game sells the movie even so, and it is not presented in a negative light at all.
Any user who's an Editor (ask your friendly neighborhood admin to become one) can edit movie descriptions. You can improve descriptions of your own movies that you think could be presented better if you're the author, too - I wrote most of the descriptions for TASes I've been involved in, for example, and you don't need to be staff to do this. Just ask to become an Editor and you can start making edits in the wiki.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
I like the tier system which the Vault is a core part of a lot. It avoids nearly all of the problems that the pre-tier publication system had, such as "bias against unpopular games/Pokémon and Final Fantasy being accepted while other RPGs are rejected", "rejecting technically sound runs due to lack of entertainment", "non-standard categories being handled on a game-by-game basis and category limits for games like Super Metroid, and similar problems for hacks, like with Super Mario World and Super Mario Bros hacks" (solved by Moons allowing as many categories and hacks as viewers find entertaining for the most part), and maybe more. It's been a while since the old system was in place, so I could be missing some.
I agree that the Vault icon is a bit dull, though, and the Moons icon was also recycled from the old "Notable Publication" icon, which was confusing at first, and the name had some confusion with the old Moons as well. I'd be fine with a snazzier name and icon for the Vault that's similarly themed to Stars and Moons, such as:
-Asteroids
-Meteors
-Rocks
-Stones
-Space dust
-Biomass
-Mushrooms
-Flowers
-Leaves
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
I realize I handled this submission unoptimally; in retrospect, I acted rashly to draw a verdict when the feedback for this submission was mostly positive at the time. It would have been best to incite discussion and ask for more opinions on what you guys think of the submission's entertainment value, and draw from that to make a verdict after all voices have been heard.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
r57shell wrote:
btw, someone can explain why tier vault?
The viewer response for this submission was good, particularly in the poll, and the movie is much better than the previous Hydlide run in entertainment.
The question is: how much more entertaining is it? The previous Hydlide run was low on entertainment even by Vault standards, and had an average entertainment rating of 3.9. This run is a lot better - a 6 in entertainment wouldn't be unreasonable. That's still below Moons territory, howewer.
The poll is a bit misleading as the movie is a (massive) improvement to a published movie, which tends to heavily skew results towards Yes. The Hydlide "easter eggs" submission #3980: dunnius's NES Hydlide "Easter Eggs" in 03:41.67 in particular received much worse reception than this one.
Because of this, my verdict is that Vault is the right tier for this movie. It's a huge improvement over the previous movie, but still below the entertainment requirements for Moons.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
First off, check if Hourglass works with your game; out of your list, Rosenkreuzstilette Freudenstachel doesn't work in Hourglass at all from what I know, so failure is the expected result for that title. I'm not familiar with Koumajou Densetsu and Quartet X; it's possible they might also be incompatible. You can try changing Hourglass settings; the Multithreading/Wait Sync Disable/Allow/Wrap setting and Japanese locale are the big ones to try.
For Rosenkreuzstilette, I've experienced the "black screen" problem myself; howewer, the game still ran (frame count increased, audio worked) and dumping video with Hourglass produced a perfectly normal dump (aside from exciting sync issues and bizarre artifacts in the dump in some cases). That doesn't help much if you're trying to TAS, but seeing if the game is actually running even when it's coming up black (by trying out the dump feature) can help rule the problem down.
I don't know how of any way to solve the problem, though; I only worked around it with varying success by using the dump function and watching the dump instead, which only works for watching a movie file.
You can also try running Hourglass in Win7; a handful of games work just as well on it as on XP, a few have sync differences between XP and 7 even though they run on both, and most only work with Hourglass on Windows XP.
The root of all evil with 3D accelerated games on Hourglass is that Hourglass can't control 3D acceleration or make it deterministic in any way, other than the video memory/disabling acceleration altogether switches you see in the main window. As such, what video hardware/drivers you're running is a huge factor for whether or not select games sync or run at all, and depending on what kind of set-up the author and the viewer have, syncing a movie might be outright impossible even if Hourglass "works" for both - this is the biggest reason why DxDiag output is very useful for troubleshooting the frequent issues with 3D games in Hourglass. There's not much that can be done about it, other than trying different systems and possibly different drivers.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
Keen 5 doesn't need "best ending", since you get the best ending by destroying the secret fuse in the secret stage, which is the fastest way to clear that level. Getting the regular ending would be slower.
Wasn't the run started before the snes9x 1.43 deprecation? Was0x's post above about the run being worked on was made in 2012, which is before snes9x was deprecated, so the run should still be submittable.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
Is the original Cheetahmen II preferable for publication over the fixed romhack? The 4-level run of the original was obsoleted by a run on the romhack since the former didn't complete the game fully. This submission plays the last two levels, which would make it complete the game fully. Howewer, the last level can't be properly beaten because of the bug with the last boss that's fixed in the romhack, so the romhack still allows for a slightly more full completition.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
I ABX'd various bitrate samples against the --bitrate=128 Opus sample. I'm listing the highest bitrate I can differentiate the samples at.
irisstage1: 80
bossbattlesong1: 72
scarsoftime: 80
thedreamthattimedreams: 72
freudiastage: 72
mmx5: 72
track15: 72
Also, while I can tell the samples apart, I can't really tell which is better or worse. So 72 or 80 for modern games with good audio sounds about right.
Note that in practice PSX is going to sound worse than these samples since PSXjin's audio is a bit subpar (unless this is a recording from PSXJin, which it doesn't seem like), so it might need less bits than the Chrono Cross samples used in this test.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(758)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
HoN retains attack damage randomness from Warcraft 3/DotA, right? That alone should cause endless desyncs for a macro recording unless there are in-game cheats or something of the sort to make the RNG a non-factor.
