Posted: 11/16/2010 4:24 PM
Post subject: Submissions with time sacrificing game objectives
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MESHUGGAH
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Hi. I have a question regarding what does users thinking about when they click the yes/meh/no (especially when they don't describe it) on submissions with elaborate game objectives where you "waste" time in order to achieve those custom goals. Sometimes I watch a speedrun submission with "non-sense" game objectives for example #2908: HappyLee's NES Super Mario Bros "lowest score (500)" in 14:32.8. Of course it's slower then the actual speedrun, and wastes time but tries to entertain as much the game could by using impossible tricks that can't be done in realtime. I never understand that why does all the videos on TASVideos has to break speedruns. While the game objective (lowest score) is pretty simple, it's actually very hard to pull it off. No powerups, no killings, you have to be super precise to touch the flag at the correct time, etc. This applies to other submissions also, when you have to wait in order to complete the special game objective, not just this submission (I don't care if it won't be published, it's just an example). Basicly I'm asking that why there's only "breaks every previous records" speedruns are on TASVideos? I would also watch those inhuman super god plays of SMW without figuring out various japanese characters on nicovideo. I'm talking about adding a very simple extra page that contains "heavy time suffering" or something like that but still completing the game as fast as possible while making special game objectives that needs "massive" ammount of time. Feel free to correct me, I'm really curious about this. (Actually I think the same on the issue when someone uses the same bug all the time within 1 submission that faster than any other trick but very "unentertaining" and people vote "No" or "Meh" while that speedrun breaks previous (if there's any) speedruns. I only remember one occurence but can't recall the game's name. I'll find it if you are curious about it). So I feel it like a paradox.)
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Posted: 11/16/2010 4:32 PM
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Noxxa
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In the case of the SMB low score run, it isn't criticized due to its category, but rather because said category stretches out the game length considerably, turning it mostly into a long playaround. Sure, it would take skill to do all that and get to the flagpole at exactly the right time, but watching heaps of wall kicking for over 10 minutes really puts off a lot of users. People don't have a problem with categories that take a much longer time to complete than the maximum (many people will find the Super Metroid 100% run more entertaining than the glitched any% run, for example), but in some cases the goal can take away much of the entertainment.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 11/16/2010 4:38 PM
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scrimpeh
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There are a few playarounds around here, the SMB3-Allstars one comes to mind. Generally, playarounds shouldn't be boring or too similar to the actual run, the same also holds true for alternate goals. In general, there's no rule set in stone about what is allowed and what isn't. Since you already used HappyLee's run as an example, the run was entertaining, but after a while grew repetetive, e.g. boring. If you really get down to it and get picky, you could also say it wasn't different enough from the warped run, as he still followed the same route, just waiting for the timer to run out before touching any of the flagpoles. A playaround with such conditions just comes natural. To name another Mario related example, Genisto did a few SMW playarounds which also were rejected for being little that couldn't be done in a 96exit/smallonly run.
Posted: 11/16/2010 5:01 PM
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MESHUGGAH
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Thank you for the comments. I actually like to watch submissions uses custom goals that requires modified routes and demonstrates glitches with only entertainment value and won't save any time. I think people don't have enough patience when they are about to watch a tool assisted speedrun :(
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Posted: 11/16/2010 8:47 PM
Post subject: GRUUUUUUUUE-VY
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alden
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If you haven't already, check out http://tasvideos.org/Movies/GruefoodDelight.html which has some other examples of alternate goals (like SM64 Capless Coinless Cannonless and SMW Walkathon and a bunch of others -- there's a whole tab called "Alternate Goals"). This page was started to house "interesting" but "unpublishable" movies and has recently been updated by Critical 5 with encodes for most of them (he is awesome again btw).
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Posted: 11/16/2010 8:50 PM
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Posted: 11/16/2010 8:59 PM
(Edited: 6/28/2012 3:10 AM)
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arkiandruski
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There are a lot of categories for runs that seem to meet your criteria. As mentioned previously there are 100% runs which waste time by collecting everything in the game. There's also playarounds, which don't have a goal of speed either. You might also look at the Contains speed/entertainment tradeoffs goal as well. These are runs where a way to do things faster is known, but they don't do it in order to be more entertaining. There's also glitch avoidance runs, where a game breaking glitch is avoided, and certain special categories like Super Mario World "small only". TASVideos doesn't just accept pure speedruns, and very often when a run comes out that plays with a game, it's embraced. They're still held to the same high standards that everything else on the site has, though.
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Posted: 11/16/2010 9:25 PM
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Warp
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arkiandruski wrote:
As mentioned previously there are 100% runs which waste time by collecting everything in the game.
I wouldn't say it like that. Having an alternative goal is not "wasting time". It's having an alternative goal. Those runs still try to complete the game as fast as possible while completing that goal, and the amount of wasted time is minimized.
Posted: 11/16/2010 9:29 PM
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MESHUGGAH
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Thank you for the posts and links, I didn't said that there are no pages already that contains alternate goals or contains speed/entertainment tradeoffs, I'm just simply don't understand that why the submissions with "challanging" goals (just like my example: the lowest score and not 100%) has to be very fast (to be published) even if they are about to waste time since it's required to fulfill those goals. alden: you are great, thanks for that link, awesome movies sgrunt: affirmative
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Posted: 11/16/2010 9:31 PM
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MESHUGGAH
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Warp wrote:
arkiandruski wrote:
As mentioned previously there are 100% runs which waste time by collecting everything in the game.
I wouldn't say it like that. Having an alternative goal is not "wasting time". It's having an alternative goal. Those runs still try to complete the game as fast as possible while completing that goal, and the amount of wasted time is minimized.
For "wasting time" I mean that the goal has something to do with the game's timer therefore you have to wait for the timer to have a specific value to do your desired action so you have to "waste" time in order to fulfill your goal. I know it's a bit loose expression, sorry.
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Posted: 11/16/2010 10:05 PM
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Noxxa
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Thank you for the posts and links, I didn't said that there are no pages already that contains alternate goals or contains speed/entertainment tradeoffs, I'm just simply don't understand that why the submissions with "challanging" goals (just like my example: the lowest score and not 100%) has to be very fast (to be published) even if they are about to waste time since it's required to fulfill those goals.
Because people find ten minutes of wall kicking and jumping around all the time repetitive, annoying and boring. And if people don't like it, it's unlikely to be published.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 11/16/2010 10:46 PM
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mmbossman
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Mothrayas wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Thank you for the posts and links, I didn't said that there are no pages already that contains alternate goals or contains speed/entertainment tradeoffs, I'm just simply don't understand that why the submissions with "challanging" goals (just like my example: the lowest score and not 100%) has to be very fast (to be published) even if they are about to waste time since it's required to fulfill those goals.
Because people find ten minutes of wall kicking and jumping around all the time repetitive, annoying and boring. And if people don't like it, it's unlikely to be published.
Pretty much this. I would have liked that submission much more (although still not a lot) if it just had the goal of a play-around. Or, if you want to think about it in a better way, make it as entertaining as possible without wasting time (and there was a ton of wasting time in the submission due to it's restrictive goal).
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