The first multi-disc submission to TASvideos.org!
Final Fantasy VIII needs no introduction. One of the three epic tales on the Playstation from Squaresoft, it is the first Final Fantasy to focus on a love story. This time, my eternal protagonist Z is an emo teenager forced to save the entire spectrum of time, instead of writing awful poetry. With the help of a broken junction system and a bit o' luck manipulation, he takes down 4 discs in record time.
  • Manipulates luck
  • Switches Discs
  • Attacks self to save time
  • Requires PSXjin v2.0.2 for Dual Shock Emulation
  • Uses Lua
  • Whines about destiny to save the world

Glossary

  • ATB - Active Time Battle, this is the bar that fills to determine when a character/enemy gets a turn.
  • GF - Guardian Force, allies that grant players special abilities, and can be called upon in battle. GF abilities require AP to learn.
  • AP - Ability Points, these points teach GF different techniques that the player selects. AP is far more important than experience in FF8, as GF Abilities are necessary to win the game.
  • Junction - GF's allow magic spells (up to 100) to be attached to a character stat*istic, which can greatly increase that statistic. This system is abused throughout the TAS to give the characters more strength and HP than normally available.
  • Limit Break - Special Attack for each character when they are in danger. These special attacks wildly vary, but are all very strong and useful. I manage to use each main characters limit break at least once during the run.
  • Crisis Level - A value that is computed every time a character is selected. It is partially random, and partially fixed based on HP. A higher Crisis Level tends to mean a better Limit Break. This value is hidden from the player, but observable through memory watch.

Tricks

Luck Manipulation

  • Delaying battles - by delaying when a battle starts, the amount of HP, as well as the starting ATB of all enemies and characters changes. Note, the RNG only changes once per 2 frames. HP is varied by the enemy level, which is randomly between 4/5ths and 6/5ths the parties current average level.
  • Character Select - by pressing circle, the currently selected character changes. Since Crisis Level needs to be recalculated, the RNG advances 1 step. This means I can advance the RNG once per 2 frames. It is the cornerstone of this run.

Run-Speed-up

Any time an action is selected, a preparation animation occurs. This can be skipped by running at the same frame the action is selected, and holding run until the action begins. Additionally, the animation for the anemic fall down that occurs after a limit break can be removed by running, allowing the ending speech of an enemy to occur 1 second earlier.

Action Queuing

Many bosses, such as NORG and Edea's 2nd fight, have multiple stages. After their first part is over, their ATB counter will jump from any value to be totally filled, and then they will begin a dialogue. However, this can be avoided by making sure that all actions required to kill them are queued before ending the first part of the fight.

Enemy Idling

Many, many enemies randomly have a 'do nothing' result when their ATB is full. This includes Ifrit, Diablos, Ultimecia round 2, NORG's discs, and more. Obviously, when fighting these, I make sure that the RNG roll comes up 'do nothing' when their turn comes. Some enemies do not have 'do nothing' commands, unfortunately. However, over the course of 4 discs, you will only see me attacked twice,not including desperation attacks (i.e. attacks when the enemy dies). See if you can find both of them!

Slower Battle Speed

I do NOT select the fastest battle speed. This pays off through the entire run. Note that the ATB counter maxes at 8000 instead of 4000 on the 2nd highest speed setting. The ATB counter fills based on your speed. However, since the ATB counter fills linearly, you actually get more turns than an enemy with a lower speed rating, at a lower battle speed. For example, the first fight with Ifrit would be impossible at highest battle speed, since Quisty would not get two turns for Ifrit's one.

Stutter-Walk

The encounter mechanics are really difficult to explain, so look at this post at SDA. In short, you can walk for a single frame, which increases your danger value by 2 instead of 5. Now, in a segemented speedrun, this can be less valuable, as saving and resetting resets the danger value. However, since you never save and load in a TAS, it is far more important. It is not always necessary to stutter-walk, and I created a lua script to tell me when to stutter-walk and when to just run. If people want, I'll create a separate post explaining all of it better. This disappears at the middle of disc 2, because I get Enc-None from Diablos

Disc 1

Balamb Garden

One of the TAS only tricks I pull off is skipping the first 7 cards that are given by the guy in the hallway. While it only saves ~6 seconds, it forces me to get 4 card drops, which are extremely rare (9/256). Additionally, only a few enemies I encounter will actually drop cards.

Trial By Fire

I went with Laser Eye to take down Ifrit. It is about 1 second slower than using Renzouken, but it will pay off later. Also, I wait for Ifrit to fill his ATB, and then have Quistis shoot her laser eye. This allows her to get a second turn before his ATB fills again, preventing Ifrit from saying his 50% health statement "Not bad for humans". Also, she needs Crisis Limit 4 for her Limit Break to do enough damage. Finally, I fight the 4 enemy battle, and pick up 3 cards, 2 bombs and a vampire bat. I need to fight this battle to gain 4 AP, or else the Eloverett Battle's AP will go to waste.

Fish Eyes

This is the battle were Laser Eye pays off, as the Fasticolon-Fs don't have to pop out of the ground (Damage is reduced by 50% while they are underground). However, only one RNG value allow Quisty's LE to be level 4, and still drop enough fins - thus, after she fires, Z speeds through all 255 other RNG values, to get back to the same value as before. If you ever wondered what cycling the entire RNG sounded like, this is it.

A Killer Test

At this point, I have the perfect 30 AP to get I Mag Ref, which turns 5 of my fish fins into 100 Waters. These junctioned to Str cause Z to become a powerhouse. In previous runs, I'd have to manipulate both G-Soldiers to have 85 HP, however, with Water on Str, Z can kill the higher HP one. I manipulate the single G-Soldier battles to have 85 HP, as Z needs to deal damage to himself, to get into Limit Break range. I use the Anacoundar battle to drop the final card so I can have a full hand. Note that the 10 AP gained is just enough to learn both Boost and finish off Card, which allows me to switch to Str-J and Card Mod.

Can You Hear Me Now?

The communication tower battle is the most difficult battle of disc 1, from a TAS perspective. Against Wedge, I don't trigger Z's Renzouken. This barely keeps Wedge alive, and thus I wait until Z's ATB is full again, before finishing him with Selphie. This allows me to Renzouken Elvorett twice, before he is able ever to attack. Unfortunately, X-ATM092 has too much HP, so I have to use Rough Divide so I am able to run. I use the Dollet Bar trick, as it saves well over 15 seconds.

The Graduate

Returning to Balamb, I pick up the Zell card from Zell's Mom. She sucks at cards, as she places the Zell card first, no matter what. This makes her easy to beat with my sub-par hand. The scene were you wait for the test results is one of the single most painful waits in the game - nothing can be done to make it faster - it takes a fixed amount of time, no matter what. After the SeeD party, Quisty takes you aside to the "secret place" i.e. make-out central, with the hopes of getting some. However, before that, she gives a tutorial on Status-Atk-J. This is important, because only in a Final Fantasy game would have a make-out session preempted by a tutorial. Quisty and Z make it to the 'secret place', and proceed to babble instead of kiss. That will teach her to tutorialize! In the Granaldo battle, I use Z to manipulate Granaldo into not attacking, which is why I delay Renzouken until right before Shiva. It saves 1-2 seconds using Renzouken right before, as that causes all enemies to die at the same time. Finally, after a good nights rest, I pick up the Quisty card from the cafeteria. This card battle is far more difficult than the Zell Card battle. Also, I manipulate a weaker hand for him, so my cards actually work.

Lord of Destruction

The Diablos battle would be one of the longest, if it weren't for a little love from Selphie. This is the only time 'The End' saves time, since it is such a ridiculously long animation. I tried it against Elvorett, and sadly, two Renzos are much faster than one 'The End.'

How NOT to Get Laid

Laguana is seriously the biggest wuss in all of the Final Fantasy Universe, which is saying a lot, because... well, Vaan. He does absolutely everything wrong, and still manages to get the girl to invite him up to his room. After THAT, he drones on for what may be the most akward conversation ever to take place on a gaming console. The first Laguana dream sequence really does nothing for the game plot, other than building a connection between Squall's father and Rinoa's mother, which almost makes the rest of the relationship seem like incest.


My First Mission is to go Logging?

I pull off the Rinoa skip, as it saves 2m50s. However, it prevents Rinoa from ever being in a menu until the final scene of Disc 1. Funny enough, if you open a menu while Rinoa is in the party in Timber, she disappears from battles. In the Deling battle, I use action queuing to prevent any talking after the fake president transforms into the ugly thing. Note, I junction Selphie instead of Zell, so I don't have to switch junctions for Laguna Dream Sequence 2. After the train sequence, I pick up invicible moon for Rinoa, but as she isn't actually in the party, I have to wait to use it. There is a whole bunch of nothing until...

This guy, again?

I don't trigger the bomb in centra, so I can't get Spd-J in disc 4, which is of questionable value anyway. I need all the AP I can get, so I can get both Enc-Half and Time Mag-Rf before the Edea battle. Also, note that Cottages are rare drops from the E-Soldier(Cyborg). I manage to get the 4 I need, so I can have 100 Curaga to junction to two characters.

Worst. Advisor. Ever.

The Iguanon battle goes slower, since I learned Enc-Half before Time Mag-Rf. However, the reduced encounters in Centra/Laguna Dream 2 saves far more time. I only need to switch the character junctioned with Diablos, so I have a continual Enc-Half. Also, note that here I assign Rinoa to learn Invincible Moon. I will bring this up later.

Disc 2

Irvine is Driving while Asleep

There isn't much to this dream sequence. There is a skip of the first dialog between Kiros and Laguna, however, it prevents the patrol from happening, and is therefore useless. Also, note that this dream is Squall, and Zell, and the other 3 characters in the prison. This means Kiros must be Irvine, who is currently driving to the prison. I'm sure he ran over at least 3 children on the way.

Prison Break!!!

I take Zell upstairs, to stop from having to switch Junctions three times, and only twice in the prison. I do manage to drop a cottage from the Red Soldier, which fills my cottage requirement. Angelo Cannon FTW!

Rinoa, I have something long, hard and metallic for you...

I take Zell and Rinoa here, so I don't have to switch Junctions. Also, bringing Rinoa prevents a ton of extra scenes between her and Z, if she goes with to Garden. Now, in the Missile Base, I can pick a fight almost right away, but that starts up the step-encounter mechanism, causing too many battles. For some strange reason, it is faster to help the Galbadians fire the missile. Rinoa's Angelo Cannon prevents the dialog from occurring after you fight BGH251F2. Also, I drop Shotgun Ammo for Irvine to fight the Oilboyles.

Who wants to Start a Riot?

nfq showed the minimum route to get Xu to appear. I copy his route, which is the "I don't care about anyone else" route. Only one battle is required to get Xu. Also, less dialog occurs if you don't fight in the infirmary. OilBoyles die quickly to shotgun rounds. The NORG battle uses action queuing to prevent his dialog after he opens up. I skip Leviathan, because he has no abilities worthwhile. Also, after NORG, I have Enc-None, which means no more random encounters to run from! I should mention that the coming Ellone scene is my favorite in the entire game, Ellone's theme is fitting for the mood she presents.

Crashing the Party

Balamb crashes into Fisherman's Horizon. Once again, Irvine's shot clears out all the enemies, extremely fast, and works much better than Renzo. It takes about 5 extra frames to get the correct tune to play, which is yet another remix of Eyes on Me. I counted about 5 different mixes of that song played throughout the entire game! Hope you like Faye Wong.

Something smells fishy...

It is much faster in balamb to move the guard away from the stair case than it is to go and grab the dog. This is most likely due to the long loading time between screens. I do draw Pandemonium, as he is a worthwhile GF for Spd-J, Str+40%, and Str+20%. Angelo Cannon is pretty awesome for these multi-enemy boss fights. Afterwards, it is faster to let Quistis invite me to tea than argue with her, since it won't matter. We head to Trabia next, which is just a ridiculous amount of dialog for the big reveal - All the main characters grew up together, in the same orphanage. No one remembers because of Guardian Forces.

Better Homes and Gardens

The two Garden battle is a long attack. Note, that there is about 5 minutes between when Rinoa falls off, and when you finally go and save her. She is literally hanging around for five minutes. That is some massive forearm strength. Seriously square, couldn't you have given her a platform to stand on, to make it at least somewhat realistic? Anyway, once I'm inside Galbadia Garden, I finish of Seifer with Criticals, and finish off Edea with Irvine's Shot, using action queuing. Drawing Alexander may have helped in Disc 4, for his Abilityx3, but I would have had to junction Z, which takes extra time.

Disc 3

I wanna be a Star!

I tried many fights with the dragon - the one where I get hit once, seemed to be the fastest. Otherwise, a pretty short and straight-forward dream, with lots dialog between here and the next dream.

Esthar

The boss is invulnerable to phoenix down, so I'm forced to use an Elixir. Otherwise, there isn't much to getting into Esthar. Ellone picks the worst time to send you a dream sequence.

Yet Another Prison Break!

Serves them right, seeing as Laguna kept his gun during the entire prison sequence. It is faster to use Laguna's limit break than junction Kiros and Ward. Nothing really exciting to manipulate, other than Laguna's starting ATB. Afterwards, Z and pals rent a car, and then head into space.

Crazy Panda Bear!

From the TAS perspective, the Lunatic Pandora invasion is one of my favorite parts of this TAS, as I have 5 minutes to kill, without having to worry about lost time. Thus, I get into two card battles which will help later. (Note, I have to leave the Odine Lab to start the countdown, and then re-enter to battle. I battle Odine and his assistant, as Odine has a rare, but the old man takes forever to think of what card he wants. Additionally, I do a bunch of stuff in the menu I wouldn't have otherwise done, Quisty learns a ton of blue magic, Guardian Forces learn useless abilities, I card mod away my entire deck of cards, and I take the SeeD test. I also shop for a nice pair of clean pants. I'm sure Zell spoiled his at some point.

Space, Space. Want to go to Space. Space. Space. Go to Space.

Space. The final... metric ass ton of dialog. There isn't much to do from a TAS perspective. I do hit the perfect frame for having possessed Rinoa move into the next part of the ship. Here we see the Rinoa free Adel, and Adel gets dragged down to Loony Panda by the Lunar Cry. Watch closely, and you may see the Space Personality Core from Portal 2! (Not really, back to testing). It is pretty cool when Ellone sends you back into Rinoa after the Edea fight. Ultimecia tells you to "get out", because 3 people inhabiting a single body is a crowd. After a ton of cutscenes, I finally get to do some real TASing, and fight all of the big nasties in Ragnarok. Since they all die to a single hit, the only thing to do is manipulate a high ATB for Squall. I think my order is the optimal one, faster than nfq's route. Then, we get the finally iteration of Eyes on Me, with lyrics!

Loony Panda Revisited

After another metric ass ton of dialog, we head back to loony panda. However, the dialog at Edea's house makes the beginning FMV finally make sense! Note that after you leave Edea's house, it is the last time to switch party before the Raijin/Fujin battle, and the damn game keeps switching your party! ERGH! Also, you will note that Renzouken makes a comeback here, and is the first time it has been used since Disc 1!

Disc 4

Ultimecia's Castle

The first boss is fairly difficult, since I can't manipulate any criticals - Limit breaks locked means no crisis level calculation, so no RNG advance. This is one of the few times that Squall is more valuable in a TAS than other characters - he can hit his 150% critical, regardless of the RNG. Listen closely at the clock tower, and you will hear a tone. This signifies that Angelo just learned Invincible Moon, 3 discs away, two screens away from the final boss. Talk about cutting it close.

Suggested Screenshots

[dead links removed]

Actual Suggested Screenshots

[dead links removed]

Thanks to -

  • zeromus - without him, this run would have never existed. The new PSXjin with hot SPU action is so much better.
  • adelikat - adding all the spiffy features to PSXjin, making it less of a retarded emulator
  • ForteGSOmega - His work on the Battle Mechanics FAQ saved me tons of time trying to figure it out myself. He also helped me over email.
  • nfq - for his initial run, which showed me a lot of time savers.
  • Dada - for watching WIPs, and keeping me motivated
  • Carcinogen, darkwasabi, Shush, and other SDAers - the SDA thread was full of great info, and Carcinogen taught me the run trick!
  • mz - his dialog skip script, while not perfect, was great for allowing me to speed through dialogs, as opposed to doing it by hand.

adelikat: Judging

adelikat: Accepting for publication


1 2 3 4
7 8
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
Dada wrote:
Flygon wrote:
And whoever wrote the PSXjin AVI dumper... will want to realize that their .WAV dumping support is a bit broken. I'll have to consult .kkapture for that one.
I have not yet checked the audio, but what exactly did you find wrong with it?
It stopped dumping 3 and a half hours in because it hit the 2 gigabyte mark. Windows made me epic fail. The fact that it dumped 500 AVI files and sorted by name sorta hid the WAV files from me finding them. *urg*
Joined: 12/27/2007
Posts: 50
Location: UK
I just watched through the whole 8 hours - it's a good job it's a bank holiday in england today! Although saying that I'd have bunked work to see this run... And my opinion? Well, I could go through a list of superlatives to describe DK's effort, but it wouldn't be enough. The battle strategies took me by surprise first, they were all over in seconds thanks to an incredible amount of luck manipulation involved (kudos to whoever deciphered the RNG), and inspired use of early card battles and junctioning. Also that little 'walk through wall' glitch was a peach! All in all, it was a technical and visual marvel. I'm trying to be as unbiased as i can be, but it's harrd not to be so nostalgic and fanboyish about it all. I Iove the game, I love the series and now I love the run. YES vote. A million times over if I could. A true and worthy TAS to the site.
Brandon
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Editor, Player (191)
Joined: 11/21/2010
Posts: 914
Location: Tennessee
Abstaining a vote as there's no way I will be able to watch enough of this to have a valid opinion, but I just wanted to say that I think it's funny that "longest TAS" is a sought after record. I mean, I could finish SMB in 9 hours if you'd all like to watch that...
All the best, Brandon Evans
Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417
Brandon wrote:
Abstaining a vote as there's no way I will be able to watch enough of this to have a valid opinion, but I just wanted to say that I think it's funny that "longest TAS" is a sought after record. I mean, I could finish SMB in 9 hours if you'd all like to watch that...
I think the key part of "longest TAS" is that it's still more or less optimized. Runs of JRPGs have always been slower to develop and less likely to be improved because the sheer time commitment they involve, not only in length but also complexity. For example, in this run, DarkKobold has to ask himself, should I draw this GF in disc 1? And then he has to calculate out the time it will save for the next 8 hours of gameplay. Fortunately FF8 is probably one of the easier (relatively speaking) JRPGs because level-ups are really a bad thing and because the path to a quick run is pretty obviously going to involve GFs and card modding, as well as the lack of equippable items besides weaponry (mostly useless in this game for speedrunning), which means he doesn't have to spend as much time agonizing over minutiae. Compare that to, say, FF7, where the question of "how many bombs should I farm for throwable damage items" can't be adequately answered for another 5 hours. The truth, though, is that any one of the games in this series is massively complex; look at how much even the first FF has been improved in subsequent submissions, and that game has a fraction of the complexity the newer entries in the series bears. For that reason, every minute of these eight hours is a fascinating sight to behold, and marks a sign of true skill on the part of the TASer if he has properly considered all his options.
I will not use self-reference in my signature.
Editor, Skilled player (1337)
Joined: 1/31/2010
Posts: 330
Location: France
No way to end the inputs at the Ultimecia-Griever battle ? I mean beat this form with Irvine's limit break (end of inputs), but beat the last form with Squall's limit break (she should have less than 20.000 LP after that) and leave the rest of the battle to Rinoa's Angel Wing. Also, Fast Ammo is slower than the Ammo you used ?
Mitjitsu
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Banned User
Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997
Acheron86 wrote:
Runs of JRPGs have always been slower to develop and less likely to be improved because the sheer time commitment they involve.
The overall length of a TAS should never lead you to believe it takes more time commitment to make compared to other TASes. One potential way this could be done is no_of_frames*no_of_rerecords. Sadly, that method is rough at best. Anyway, overall effort put into a run is much more important than the overall time that was committed towards a run.
Acheron86 wrote:
The truth, though, is that any one of the games in this series is massively complex;
I can't speak for the entire FF series, but judging by the rerecord rate only 9 rerecords are used for every 10 seconds of gameplay when 213 would normally be expected. This could mean the author was lazy, which should be entirely ruled out, or the game has a lot of text/cutscenes that can be turboed and fast forwarded through. While battle scenes are trivial to test.
Jungon
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Joined: 4/2/2009
Posts: 376
Location: Porto Alegre - Brazil
Saw the disc 2 part .... and sorry, but I saw a major flaw now, you'll have to redo the run from the beginning of this disc =P You know the we, saving the moombas in prison, they give you something in return, it's not just the quickest way, it's the quickest shortcuts for 3 floors, those plates between stair up and stair down can be removed.. and the actual run means about 2 to 3 minutes of spinning around the floors ... that could be taken away, meaning less random encounters in this part.. If I'm not mistaken, the 3 moombas ask it right after Zell, Quistis and Selphie reunite with Squall/Z, above the 12th floor ... one says 'shortcut, choose floor 2-3-4' and the others are '5-8-9' and '10-11-12' ... taking three of these off means a lot of time saving O.o And I think the garden can be just a little better driven .. xP Will be seeing disc 3 .. right now =P
*Jungon*/*Johnnyz* smilie weirdo =P ^^ o.o @__@ +D
Joined: 9/7/2005
Posts: 144
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
I always liked the "sorceress" fight at the beginning of disc four. The melting backgrounds let you know that things aren't quite right anymore. Giving this a YES vote.
This guy are sick.
Jungon
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Joined: 4/2/2009
Posts: 376
Location: Porto Alegre - Brazil
Finished watching the run just now \o/
lapogne36 wrote:
I mean beat this form with Irvine's limit break (end of inputs), but beat the last form with Squall's limit break (she should have less than 20.000 LP after that) and leave the rest of the battle to Rinoa's Angel Wing.
Actually, Ultimecia starts talking and then she just need to take 4 or 5 single attacks to be defeated, there is no need for using limit breaks anymore after that point, since they would just make one more phrase pop up.. o_o Found another mistake: (not really, but) .. you learned Invincible Moon too early =P it should be steps before the final door, ... which would be the time saver on the prison, I guess. ... can someone please do the math on that? +D Overall, I voted Yes and stand with it, but ... is Shockwave Pulsar really enough to take out your party at that time? If you could survive it with all three members somehow, it would be more TASish than being invincible, I guess... (plus it takes less time, not buying the pet book) xP
*Jungon*/*Johnnyz* smilie weirdo =P ^^ o.o @__@ +D
Active player (406)
Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708
I was the second person to vote no on this. And no, I didn't watch the whole thing. I watched 16 minutes of it. Arrrgghgh, it's nothing but cutscenes! I was bored out of my skull. I'm sure DarkKobold did a great job at it and I applaud his efforts but this game is really boring to watch, even as a TAS.
Kitsune wrote:
Oh my god. People who vote no on games like this should just be outright IP Banned from the forums.
Very mature, fanboy.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Heisanevilgenius wrote:
And no, I didn't watch the whole thing. I watched 16 minutes of it. Arrrgghgh, it's nothing but cutscenes! I was bored out of my skull.
The first 16 minutes of a JRPG is full of cutscenes? What a surprise!
Very mature, fanboy.
Look who's talking.
Active player (406)
Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708
What? Is there something hypocritical about me saying that? Saying that someone should be IP banned because they have a different opinion is pretty immature and ridiculous. I voted no because I don't think this game is well-suited to a TAS. And it's not well-suited to a TAS because it's loaded with cutscenes that slow the game to a constant crawl. Unless you're a huge Final Fantasy fan, it's not entertaining. You know, there were a lot of posts here complaining that the last no voter wouldn't explain why. I explained why. Nice to know that you have the same attitude to people who actually give their opinion than people who just click a button and move on.
Brandon
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Editor, Player (191)
Joined: 11/21/2010
Posts: 914
Location: Tennessee
Acheron86 wrote:
Brandon wrote:
Abstaining a vote as there's no way I will be able to watch enough of this to have a valid opinion, but I just wanted to say that I think it's funny that "longest TAS" is a sought after record. I mean, I could finish SMB in 9 hours if you'd all like to watch that...
I think the key part of "longest TAS" is that it's still more or less optimized. Runs of JRPGs have always been slower to develop and less likely to be improved because the sheer time commitment they involve, not only in length but also complexity. For example, in this run, DarkKobold has to ask himself, should I draw this GF in disc 1? And then he has to calculate out the time it will save for the next 8 hours of gameplay. Fortunately FF8 is probably one of the easier (relatively speaking) JRPGs because level-ups are really a bad thing and because the path to a quick run is pretty obviously going to involve GFs and card modding, as well as the lack of equippable items besides weaponry (mostly useless in this game for speedrunning), which means he doesn't have to spend as much time agonizing over minutiae. Compare that to, say, FF7, where the question of "how many bombs should I farm for throwable damage items" can't be adequately answered for another 5 hours. The truth, though, is that any one of the games in this series is massively complex; look at how much even the first FF has been improved in subsequent submissions, and that game has a fraction of the complexity the newer entries in the series bears. For that reason, every minute of these eight hours is a fascinating sight to behold, and marks a sign of true skill on the part of the TASer if he has properly considered all his options.
Oh, by no means am I discrediting his work. I'd be willing to bet that DarkKobold produced an incredibly high quality TAS, and I support the precedent Nach made on my recently published run [/shamelessplug] in which he explained that some TASes simply need to be watched in multiple sittings, and that length shouldn't be a disqualifying factor if the run is up to par in the other categories. I just think the title of "longest TAS" is funny.
All the best, Brandon Evans
Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417
Mitjitsu wrote:
The overall length of a TAS should never lead you to believe it takes more time commitment to make compared to other TASes. One potential way this could be done is no_of_frames*no_of_rerecords. Sadly, that method is rough at best. Anyway, overall effort put into a run is much more important than the overall time that was committed towards a run. I can't speak for the entire FF series, but judging by the rerecord rate only 9 rerecords are used for every 10 seconds of gameplay when 213 would normally be expected. This could mean the author was lazy, which should be entirely ruled out, or the game has a lot of text/cutscenes that can be turboed and fast forwarded through. While battle scenes are trivial to test.
A good point and one I wouldn't argue with. I do think that, in RPGs, an optimal TAS is going to end up being more dialogue and trivial optimizations (running from point A to point B, no reason to manipulate RNG most of the time in towns or once you have a "no encounters" ability, and menu navigation) than actual difficult improvement. So I'm not sure the formula is the best one for this kind of game, because there's very little practice of things like physics abuse or interactive mechanic exploitations (like, for example, OoT or SM64). In other words, in an RPG, optimization becomes more about cerebral thinking ("what kind of advantage do I get later on if I get this item or fight this boss?") versus hard practice ("Can I make this jump? Can I make it in fewer frames? How many fewer frames? How many different ways can I approach it? What if I got here later and this enemy moved? Can I make that enemy move by manipulating the RNG? What's the best way to do that?"). In JRPGs, enemies are usually very easy to manipulate (in TAS and sometimes in real-time), paths are usually straightforward, and the optimal way to kill something is always to use the most easily accessible, most damaging, or fastest attack (and it's usually not hard to know which one that will be). That's not to say a SM64 runner doesn't make very hard, calculated, decisions. Actually, he has to figure out quite a bit more at times, because there's so many ways to do it: physics at work. Final fantasy games have comparatively simple physics engines (all three PSX games are characters imposed on pre-set walkable paths, put up against background screens to make it look like they move through the environment, always at the same pace and without any jumping or sliding type moves). Thus I'm not sure rerecords + time necessarily indicate room for improvement, though they're certainly still a factor. Of course, you acknowledge all this in your second paragraph; I'm simply adding to that, I suppose.
Jungon wrote:
Saw the disc 2 part .... and sorry, but I saw a major flaw now, you'll have to redo the run from the beginning of this disc =P You know the we, saving the moombas in prison, they give you something in return, it's not just the quickest way, it's the quickest shortcuts for 3 floors, those plates between stair up and stair down can be removed.. and the actual run means about 2 to 3 minutes of spinning around the floors ... that could be taken away, meaning less random encounters in this part..
It would probably save about 40 seconds to talk to the Moombas and open a path, but isn't there something else that has to be done to get them to talk to you? I seem to remember you have to do something extra to get them on your side...
Heisanevilgenius wrote:
What? Is there something hypocritical about me saying that? Saying that someone should be IP banned because they have a different opinion is pretty immature and ridiculous. I voted no because I don't think this game is well-suited to a TAS. And it's not well-suited to a TAS because it's loaded with cutscenes that slow the game to a constant crawl. Unless you're a huge Final Fantasy fan, it's not entertaining. You know, there were a lot of posts here complaining that the last no voter wouldn't explain why. I explained why. Nice to know that you have the same attitude to people who actually give their opinion than people who just click a button and move on.
Your explanation is much appreciated, at least on my part, despite my sarcastic words earlier. In all honesty, though, turning down an FF TAS is just not a reasonable idea (assuming it is optimized). Some games are not very well suited to a TAS, and JRPGs fit that bill, but realistically, the series is a staple of many gamers' libraries. It isn't a niche game or a sleeper hit. Compare this, to, say, Vagrant Story, which is one of my personal all time favorite games but is not something I would ever think would deserve to be published. Like it or not, the popularity of a game is a deciding factor in its publication. The collection of runs on this site has felt incomplete ever since PSX TASing became an option, in large part because some of its most popular and best-selling games have not gotten much love. Again, I appreciate your point about the game being long and hard to watch for some viewers, but I just think turning it down would be a bad move--it is an optimized run of a game that I am positive many people would want to watch. Entertainment has always been the reason this site exists, right? Whether it's to watch the fastest possible run or to see a game broken to its limits, we're here to watch our favorite games played as no human can. This run does that, even if it isn't immediately obvious to people who don't like or care for the game itself; moreover, there's enough people who do care that it justifies its place in our annals.
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Heisanevilgenius wrote:
What? Is there something hypocritical about me saying that?
I was referring to you voting "no" and voicing a rather negative opinion after watching a very small portion of the entire run. It's a bit like I watched the first 15 seconds of a new SMB run and thought "boring, I'm going to vote no". The general rule of thumb is that one should watch the run (in its entirety) before voting, and if someone doesn't want to watch the run, he should abstain from voting. (Yes, I'm pretty sure that even if you watched the whole thing you wouldn't change your opinion. However, this is a question of attitude and principle. At least have the decency of watching the author's hard work in full before shunning it.) The sense of immaturity in your comment is similar to someone eg. shunning a classic movie (such as Citizen Kane or Casablanca) after only having watched the first 5 minutes of it.
You know, there were a lot of posts here complaining that the last no voter wouldn't explain why. I explained why. Nice to know that you have the same attitude to people who actually give their opinion than people who just click a button and move on.
Explaining the reasons for a negative vote is commendable, but that doesn't mean that the reasons themselves are, nor that those negative opinions and their motivation should be free from critique.
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I'd argue that some people possess the ability to watch only certain portions of an 8 hour movie and can already be pretty sure they couldn't find it any more entertaining to watch the whole thing. Why should they be forced to torture themselves, just so their opinion gets respected? With RPGs, there might be people who have formed the general opinion that they should only be published if they contain major game-breaking glitches. Why should those people need to watch the whole movie to vote no? They'd only have to skim through the movie and the submission text to find out it's just another ordinary run of an RPG. And how come people who generally like a certain genre are perfectly allowed to vote yes on decent runs, but if people dislike TASes of a certain genre their opinion is suddenly less valid? There are perfectly valid reasons for disliking TASes of RPGs in general. I can see how people who vote yes should really first watch the whole thing (excluding cut scenes) though. There might be flaws in it that can be easily corrected before publication.
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I'm giving up my encode. There was a problem with my first AVI dumping, which causes the sounds to lose the sync. I've used a save state to interrupt my dumping process, because I had to go, and then I moved the files I've made so far in another computer, and then I've resumed the dumping process. I think this may be the cause of this problem. So I've deleted the dump, thinking it was bad, and having the idea to start over. But I'd rather give up than starting over this loooooooong stuff. It's too much time consuming. Flygon's doing the SD encode anyway. Thanks to DarkKobold and Dacicus for your help.
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Kuwaga wrote:
I'd argue that some people possess the ability to watch only certain portions of an 8 hour movie and can already be pretty sure they couldn't find it any more entertaining to watch the whole thing. Why should they be forced to torture themselves, just so their opinion gets respected? With RPGs, there might be people who have formed the general opinion that they should only be published if they contain major game-breaking glitches. Why should those people need to watch the whole movie to vote no? They'd only have to skim through the movie and the submission text to find out it's just another ordinary run of an RPG. And how come people who generally like a certain genre are perfectly allowed to vote yes on decent runs, but if people dislike TASes of a certain genre their opinion is suddenly less valid? There are perfectly valid reasons for disliking TASes of RPGs in general. I can see how people who vote yes should really first watch the whole thing (excluding cut scenes) though. There might be flaws in it that can be easily corrected before publication.
A "no" vote is a beast quite different from "yes." People often see the yes/maybe/no vote system as a sheer "do you like this" question. That's not what it is; it says "do you think this run should be published?" Now in this case, the voter explained why he does not think it should be published. At this point I am okay with his "no" vote because it does adequately represent his belief: "this run is boring and too long; it doesn't do anything for me, so I don't think it should be published." Now I say "okay" with his vote. I don't think it's really a valuable vote, though. He has cast his opinion in the hat, but not really weighed the variables here. Similarly, if I voted no on every run I didn't like because it "didn't do it for me," I weaken my own voice. I am not in the habit of voting on most submissions. I tend to focus on games I favor; ones I am not familiar with I sometimes watch, but it varies on my mood, the game, etc. Now of course not everyone should vote like me, but I like to think my opinion is more meaningful when I give it stronger weight than such broad arguments as "it's too long" or "I don't like this game." I think it's important to remember that the focal point here is to give the judges a reference point for how the audience likes it. Certainly I doubt they would object to someone saying no if that person's reasoning is sound, but I think some "no" votes pollute the pool, like the SM64 runs that get no votes just because there's been too many submissions and optimizations. It should be a question of what's best for the site, and I don't think anyone can truly argue that turning down optimized runs of the most popular games is good for the site in any way.
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Warp wrote:
I was referring to you voting "no" and voicing a rather negative opinion after watching a very small portion of the entire run.
I'm sorry, but I think expecting someone to watch eight full hours of a speedrun before voting no is pretty insane, and comparing a TAS of a Final Fantasy game to Citizen Kane is pretty bizarre. But more on the first point, if someone submitted a SMB run that was very obviously not optimized from the very first level and takes more than twice as long as the current movie, you would vote no without watching the entire thing, wouldn't you? We have high standards here and the rule should always be to watch the full thing before voting yes because you want to make sure it's thoroughly optimized and entertaining, but it doesn't take that long to realize if something is wrong. And yes, maybe I watched a "very small portion" but I still sat through sixteen minutes. That's the length of a television show. There's no way I'm going to spend eight hours on this. That's a full-time shift. At minimum wage where I come from that's $82 worth of time. So unless I'm willing to devote that much time to watching this speedrun, my opinion is totally invalid? I totally lose the right to say "No, I don't think this is entertaining"? If Citizen Kane was eight hours long, I think people honestly would walk out on it after a few minutes and that doesn't make them uncultured.
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Watch the first 20 or so minutes of this game's TAS vs FFVII's TAS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnEjQxwDnNA), minus the opening scenes. FFVII is just so much... better! I love FFVIII and all, and I really enjoyed watching this TAS, but I'll be danged if it doesn't seem like you're watching text 90% of the time! Appreciate the run and YouTube encodes very very much (:
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oh god I can't believe even buffering times are trying to put me off of watching this >_< I read about some walking through glitch so I'm definitely interested in watching that… don't know how much I'll actually watch, can't watch it all now because it's already 9PM edit: oh right did I see a "Continue"? is that normal even without a saved file?
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Heisanevilgenius wrote:
comparing a TAS of a Final Fantasy game to Citizen Kane is pretty bizarre.
I know that the film in question doesn't reach the high quality of FF8, but I couldn't think of a better example. There probably aren't many. I suppose I was just comparing ageless classics in two different industries.
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the very first battle you run from... at 11:03 was that unavoidable? how so? edit: third battle is the same, I guess I'll be seeing this often? it's impossible to manipulate random encounters perfectly? edit2: the waits for (I assume) RNG manipulation before battles look badly planned out, I think it'd look better if you took a suboptimal route and do some funny movements instead of waiting just before entering the fight, but that's not a really important thing watched the first hour while skipping cutscenes
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I don't really understand these "I don't like the game" or "This game makes for a boring TAS" arguments for voting no. Shouldn't we just compare the alternatives and pick the best one? 1. Publishing: We get a good (and the best so far) answer to the question "How quickly can this game be completed". People interested in the game may enjoy watching the whole of it, or using parts of it for reference. 2. Not publishing: We save some work for the publishers, and some disk space. #1 should be the obvious choice here. A TAS can serve several purposes, and I think the "It must entertain me personally or it's no good" aspect has come to dominate far too much here. Aside from entertainment, a TAS is useful as
  1. A speed record
  2. A compendium of demonstrations of useful tricks in the game
  3. A reference for speed runners
  4. A measurement of how long a certain path through the game takes, which is useful when considering new TASes under new conditions
Now, I still have 4 hours left to watch before voting myself, but so far, it looks impressive - it is amazing how quickly he becomes far too powerful for the bosses, to the extent that most battles end in a single attack. I have only played parts of the game a long time ago, though, so I can't watch the TAS with the critical eye it deserves. Some things I noticed that looked non-optimal: When moving the garden across the world map, several small adjustments of the course were made: Couldn't the optimal course have been chosen from the beginning, or is the direction resolution too low? Also, at one point you are forced to walk halfway around the garden because you are placed on the wrong side of it when exiting. Could changing the direction of the garden before exiting improve this?
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Acheron86 wrote:
Jungon wrote:
Saw the disc 2 part .... and sorry, but I saw a major flaw now, you'll have to redo the run from the beginning of this disc =P You know the we, saving the moombas in prison, they give you something in return, it's not just the quickest way, it's the quickest shortcuts for 3 floors, those plates between stair up and stair down can be removed.. and the actual run means about 2 to 3 minutes of spinning around the floors ... that could be taken away, meaning less random encounters in this part..
It would probably save about 40 seconds to talk to the Moombas and open a path, but isn't there something else that has to be done to get them to talk to you? I seem to remember you have to do something extra to get them on your side...
I didn't play FF8 in three years, now, but I'm about 75% sure the work is already done, the moombas are saved when you choose to defend them with Zell and not lying to the guard with Squall/Z, .. and doing it would save entire minutes and tighten up the Invincible Moon time, making the sound happen right in front of the final door ... but I can't really calculate it right now +_+ I have FF8 here, playstation version, four discs ... should I try to run it with the game in an emulator? Or it would desync easily, especially when changing discs at that speed? ... XD
amaurea wrote:
Some things I noticed that looked non-optimal: When moving the garden across the world map, several small adjustments of the course were made: Couldn't the optimal course have been chosen from the beginning, or is the direction resolution too low? Also, at one point you are forced to walk halfway around the garden because you are placed on the wrong side of it when exiting. Could changing the direction of the garden before exiting improve this?
Oh yeah, that's something I brought up earlier, the Garden driver's skills =P I think these parts could be recalculated too, is turning the Garden around slower than walking around it, really? O.o is a walking person actually faster than an airship?? XD Maybe I should start posting all these doubts in the FF8 WIP topic... ? Invincible Moon still doesn't look optimal to me anyway... >.>
*Jungon*/*Johnnyz* smilie weirdo =P ^^ o.o @__@ +D
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