Topic by VANDAL

Posted: 7/27/2006 1:23 AM

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VANDAL

Experienced player (612)

Joined: 4/24/2005
Posts: 612

I think that 2P run would be cool but I am unfamiliar with the suicide glitch which sounds kind of unentertaining since it sounds like you will only be controlling 1P for the most part. Also hard mode really isn't needed since it can drag on fights longer than needed, sure you have a 2nd player to help but I don't think it is actually harder but just longer.

Posted: 7/27/2006 2:45 AM

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nesrocks

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Player (241)

Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil

1P normal...

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 7/27/2006 3:51 AM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3599)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4739
Location: Tennessee

most are going to agree that normal is best as far as 1p vs 2p, I vote that you test which one is faster and do that one. Would the suicide glitch mean that you fight the bosses with only 1 character? If so then it is pointless to use the glitch, you might as well do a 1p run. If you can fight the bosses as 2p then the glitch would be awsome. Yes it would be 1 character a lot of the time but so what? You aren't doing it for the 2-player aspect but because it is a strategy which saves time.

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Posted: 7/27/2006 4:05 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Although this is a poll, I seem to be unable to vote. Vatchern I remember a test WIP you had of 2-player normal mode. I think it had great potential, so I will vote for that. The running sequences usually aren't too entertaining; the bulk of the meat in this game's TAS ability is in whupping the enemies and EVIL BOSSES. If you can get to each boss (almost) as fast as 1-player, and coordinate a mind-boggling 2-player attack on the boss's weak point for massive damage, well, that would be cool.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 7/27/2006 6:39 AM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Maybe it's a manually-tallied poll? I also vote for "whatever's fastest", which is hard to tell. The run could potentially be a total glitchfest, will 2 players help with that enough to make up for the lag? (Maybe: Besides the suicide glitch for outside of boss fight rooms, using left+right to turn one player invisible will eliminate the lag from that player.) As far as non-glitched attacks, the most damaging things by far seem to be: tricking the boss into hitting itself, throwing something while running (and jumping?), and throwing the boss. Bashing away at the bosses with 1 or 2 players could be the least effective way of fighting. EDIT: Actually, has anybody considered the GBA remake?

Posted: 7/27/2006 12:18 PM

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Vatchern

Player (84)

Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 973
Location: Newfoundland, Canada

Nitsuja: i have tried to get that criticle hit of yours to work many times, but came up unsucessful. Also, voting should now work thanks to Bisqwit.

http://tasvideos.org/Vatchern.html

Posted: 7/27/2006 1:07 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Vatchern: You also could learn a lot with the memory watcher for this game in particular, if you found the addresses that contained the energy for the EVIL BOSSES and see how much damage different kinds of attacks do.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 7/27/2006 2:42 PM

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FrostyTheDragon

Joined: 6/7/2006
Posts: 53

2P Normal. Easily. (For some reason, I couldn't vote either, though.) In fact, assuming you're going to focus more on entertainment than speed, I have a couple of suggestions to add to the pile: 1) Have one player grab a trashcan while the other gets a chain (or a stick - I say 'chain' because it appears to me to have slightly more range). At the start of boss fights where you have that setup, have the trashcan carrier jump and throw both weapons so they hit at nearly the same time (I'd say AT the same time but I don't know if both hits would register that way). 2) With just one of the bosses - don't care who, but I suggest Thor - once you knock the enemy down once, try the 'dodgeball' strategy. What I mean is, have the players constantly toss the boss at each other. Doing this with more than one boss drops the entertainment value through the floor, though. (Renamed it in case you can get hurt by enemies being thrown at you.) 3) Remember that weapon set I suggested in point 1? Carry those into the Dragon Twins fight, and pummel from both sides. Despite their guarding tendencies, I don't think they can switch their blocking that fast. I also suggest having one player's hits occur halfway through the pause between the other player's hits - whereas the last run had a '1, 2, 3, 4' kind of beat to the hits, I suggest a '1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and' kind of beat. (The musically inclined are more likely to get what I mean here.)

Posted: 7/27/2006 4:06 PM

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nesrocks

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Player (241)

Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil

JXQ wrote:

Vatchern: You also could learn a lot with the memory watcher for this game in particular, if you found the addresses that contained the energy for the EVIL BOSSES and see how much damage different kinds of attacks do.

yes, he's already done that :)

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 7/27/2006 9:11 PM

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Vatchern

Player (84)

Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 973
Location: Newfoundland, Canada

Hopefully Nitsuja can remember what he did to do a criticle hit, or something can figure it out before i start, because that will be a huge time saver.

http://tasvideos.org/Vatchern.html

Posted: 7/27/2006 9:58 PM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Vatchern wrote:

Nitsuja: i have tried to get that criticle hit of yours to work many times, but came up unsucessful.

I think what actually happened is that the boss hit himself with a weapon he threw. That can do enormous damage (like, on the order of 32 HP sometimes). He was right against a wall (that I was inside) when I was trying to hit him so that would explain me not seeing him get hit by the projectile. The weapon he had at the time was a glitched-out baseball, I don't think that matters but it might. EDIT: Also, if you look at my glitched playaround, you'll see that I hit the boss a few times while in the glitched state. I would check the memory to see if any of those hits did more damage than usual.

Posted: 5/27/2007 2:47 AM

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Chamale

He/Him

Player (178)

Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1352
Location: Canada

Sorry for this big bump, but my friend Flamegamer has found some interesting bugs in this game. 1. Bunny hopping Basically, you jump, then kick right before hitting the ground. You bounce and kick, giving an extra-powerful kick. Do it again, the kick becomes even stronger. 2. Trash can zipping An offshoot of the bunny hopping glitch that only works in 2P mode :P One guy stands on a trash can, the other guy bunny kicks it. ZOOM! 3. Bye Bye Boss! Against Moose and Thor, it's possible to kill them easily. Beat them to the ground (One bunnt hop should do it) then pick them up and throw them into the pit near them. Yay! I'll be running this game. Novice difficulty, 2P. I'll aim for entertainment and speed, mostly speed. I will fight Moose, despite his skipability. The pit glitch is just too funny to pass up.

Posted: 5/28/2007 11:15 PM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

awesome! just be careful that the 2 player run that was submitted aimed for fastest time, and people whined about it not being entertaining enough. I'd suggest reading the submission thread and seeing what exactly it was viewer's wanted to see, and what fighting/stylistic choices they preferred.

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Posted: 5/28/2007 11:25 PM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Personally, I like the acrobatic stuff. The Turk fight, for instance: Alex and Ryan run in. Alex stops and fights Turk toe-to-toe while Ryan bounces high off the wall to jumpkick Turk in the back of the head. Just before Ryan lands, Alex backs off to do something else, like grabbing a trashcan, or whatever. Slow way to get through the game, but the result is really cool if you know what you're doing. Edit: Here are three boss fights I whipped up in an hour: Rocco Blade Thor Style counts in this game. :)

Posted: 5/29/2007 12:56 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Dromiceius, Please TAS this game. Sincerely, TASVideos

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 5/29/2007 3:17 AM

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Chamale

He/Him

Player (178)

Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1352
Location: Canada

Thor doesn't matter. He'll get thrown off the edge of the pit, defeating him.

Posted: 5/29/2007 3:31 AM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

I mis-labeled the movie... and the link. I actually fought Turk.

He'll get thrown off the edge of the pit, defeating him.

You're positive about that? I thought you had to wait for the coin to appear... Anyway, I can't run this- I have a couple other projects going that I shouldn't have committed to.

Posted: 5/29/2007 12:12 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Dromicieus, that's a bummer. Chalame, throwing a boss into a pit is way more boring in this game. Additionally, give this a try: 1) Throw a boss into a pit. 2) Leave the screen. 3) Return to the screen. 4) Defeat the enemies. 5) Note the boss appearing. I just verified this myself with Moose. This is called "testing". It's what you should do before posting your "discoveries".

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 5/29/2007 3:52 PM

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Chamale

He/Him

Player (178)

Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1352
Location: Canada

Well, I've done testing with Thor, and throwing him into the pit does entail a defeat. Anyway, I think that after beating Moose, he reappears anyway.

Posted: 5/29/2007 6:30 PM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Jixie-poo: the bosses always reappear, no matter how/how many times you defeat them. The only thing that changes is their intro/death speech. If you throw Moose down the hole and he says "here we go again!" next time you see him, then you've effectively defeated him. Though I agree that an easy victory would be a waste of a boss, it would be funny to make Thor accidentally kill himself...

Well, I've done testing with Thor, and throwing him into the pit does entail a defeat. Anyway, I think that after beating Moose, he reappears anyway.

I'm not exactly satisfied with that explanation. I can't remember the boss order... Mojo -> Thor -> Ivan? Anyway, you'd need to make certain that Ivan appears if you chuck Thor down the hole. I'd test this myself, but I just crawled out of bed and need to get moving till later tonight.

Posted: 6/2/2007 5:04 AM

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Chamale

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Player (178)

Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1352
Location: Canada

Hmm... Unfortunately, it turns out my test had been inaccurate. See, I just did it at 100% speed, and it was hard to kick him down the pit. By the time I managed to do it, the kick killed him. I was wrong. Sorry. As redemption, check out this video of the Simon fight. It's 9 seconds faster than Vatchern's, and much more creative (No offense). Vatchern's run is basically 30 seconds of standing there and thudding him over the head with a trash can and chain. In this video, the longest stretch of that is exactly 2 seconds long. I won't say anything else, watch the movie!!

Posted: 6/2/2007 5:31 AM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Not bad. The biggest thing I would suggest is to keep both Alex and Ryan moving nearly all the time. You ping-pong a little bit between controlling one and then the other. (EG, Alex is bounce-kicking, but Ryan just stands there.) Fewer knockdowns tends to look better, and probably takes much less time. You hit Simon back and forth a few times, and eventually he falls down, but if you wait ~15 frames before throwing the next hit, he won't fall down, but won't have time to retaliate, either. It's an infinite combo, in other words. Also, I think Alex kicked the chain near the start. The enemy's invincibility takes a little while to wear off between hits. Hope that helps. :)

Posted: 6/2/2007 6:19 AM

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Chamale

He/Him

Player (178)

Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1352
Location: Canada

Hmm, thanks for the tips. But keep in mind that to do really massive damage with trash can comboes and the like, it is necessary to knock him down. However, due to the new nature of the trash can trick, it is hard to know how effective an attack it. Does anyone know the memory address for opponent HP?

Posted: 6/2/2007 7:26 AM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Some quick testing... One of the enemy hp values is at 04C2. *I don't know what Mojo's defense is, or what the game's damage formulae are. Any of these numbers may have been rounded down. *punches and kicks are equal, hence "hit". *Tires, boxes, and pipes and trashcans are equal, plus or minus 1, but the stick seems to be worth about 75%. The chain might be worth more than boxes/trashcans, but I didn't test the chain on Mojo, so I don't know. *There are a lot of variables, so these could be a bit off. Standing hit = 2 Jumping hit = 5 Dashing hit = 7 Dashing jump-hit = 10 Standing box = ? (forgot to test while I had a box.) Standing box-throw = ? Dashing box = 11 Dashing jump-box = 13 Dashing box-throw = 13 Dashing box-jump-throw = 16 Hitting the ground after being thrown = 7 Kicking a trashcan into a downed Mojo = 11 What is the "trash can trick"?

Posted: 6/2/2007 12:24 PM

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Chamale

He/Him

Player (178)

Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1352
Location: Canada

Do the "bunny-hop glitch", which involves jumping, then kicking just before impact. Kick a trashcan. I need to do some testing myself... EDIT: After a bit of testing, I've figured out the thing that bothers me most. Not knowing enemy stamina*. Can anyone more experience with memory search figure out what that figure is? *I think it's called stamina, it's the stat that recharges health when it is 0.