Post subject: Speed TAS'ing competition: Make a TAS with a time limit!
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Greetings, As part of organizing TASVideo's AGDQ 2015 submission I posted the idea of doing a speed TAS'ing race and decided to set up an initial competition. The concept is as follows: Consider chess. Like a TAS, a grand master in an untimed match may take an extremely long time to think out what will happen next and rewind in their head to plan out a game. In a a speed chess scenario, the same grand master has only a limited amount of time to consider each move. Speed TAS'ing is like speed chess - the TAS'er has a limited amount of time to TAS a game, so efficiency with TAS tools is required. For this initial competition, the goal is to see how well this concept will actually play out with a shorter game, so here are the constraints: - Anyone can participate; this is an open competition - The game for this competition is NES Bible Adventures "Baby Moses" v1.2 (completion is reaching the releasing Baby Moses ending cutscene) - The time limit (on the honor system) is 2 hours of TAS'ing time, starting from when you start researching or TAS'ing - Any and all pre-existing content can be referenced but your input file must be unique - All TAS's must be privately uploaded to movie storage no later than 2014-08-31 at 12:59 PM GMT extended to 2014-09-01 at 4:00 PM GMT (please PM me the link) The 2 hour time limit should not include setting up the TAS'ing environment but should include any time spent researching the game. In the spirit of competition, please do not reference the submissions of others; ideally this would be happening concurrently with everyone competing at the same time but it's better to be flexible for this trial. The time limit is entirely on the honor system; to keep yourself honest, consider streaming on Twitch or simply starting a stopwatch program. Just like speed chess, complete perfection is not an expectation in this competition, so the challenge is figuring out how to manage your time to allow optimizing the movie as much as possible in the time allowed. Edit: Please hold off on posting movie links or your completion time in this thread until after the deadline to prevent the introduction of bias - in a concurrent speed TAS'ing competition, no participant would know what the completion time of their competitor's TAS was until the competition was over, which is what I'm trying to emulate here. Instead, just upload your movie files as private WIP's and PM me the link. Once the deadline has passed I'll collect all of the submissions and share the results. Thanks! Speed TAS away, and thanks for everyone's support! Update: This initial competition is done and the results are very interesting! A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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This will be a fun challenge! Going to start this first thing after work tomorrow!
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I'm interested in participating, but since I know the genesis version of your game idea has already a TAS and probably this game will just lag on NES, I'm not sure to actually participate.
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Interesting. I'll consider. :)
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If this competition becomes reality in AGDQ, will the participants know in advance what game will be TASed, or is the idea that the game will be revealed only right when the 2-hour competition starts?
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Warp wrote:
If this competition becomes reality in AGDQ, will the participants know in advance what game will be TASed, or is the idea that the game will be revealed only right when the 2-hour competition starts?
*game announced, every TASer realizes they dont have that rom, black out screens, and lets begin! this competition does sound interesting! So in respect to setting up TAS environment is mainly emulator,rom,and anything else before you start inputting? That would not include ram searching since that is considered researching
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Warp wrote:
If this competition becomes reality in AGDQ, will the participants know in advance what game will be TASed, or is the idea that the game will be revealed only right when the 2-hour competition starts?
The idea is that the TAS'ers would know what platform the game would be on (likely to again be NES due to the variety of emulators available for it) but they would not know exactly what the game or goal choice would be until the competition starts. I'm taking a guess that 2 hours is a good time limit for Baby Moses but the time limit would be carefully set to ensure it is achievable. I've presented other ideas in the AGDQ 2015 potential participation thread about having two TAS'ers compete and pit their movie files against two realtime runners (who *would* know what game to practice ahead of time) to ensure that regardless of which side is faster there is at least some drama. One idea I came up with is to have a single on-site TAS'er and an open competition to allow anyone to submit a movie file, but this would require having someone to weed out troll submissions and ensure that the fastest result actually completed the goal. It'd still be an interesting way to invoke audience participation. Thanks for the interest, everyone!
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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solarplex wrote:
*game announced, every TASer realizes they dont have that rom, black out screens, and lets begin!
Heh - yeah, we'll have to handle this carefully. Possibly by giving the runners a list of games that they need to have on hand and then announcing one of them out of the group, or by selecting a freeware game with a downloadable link (this is probably a requirement if the "second" TAS'er is an open audience competition).
solarplex wrote:
this competition does sound interesting! So in respect to setting up TAS environment is mainly emulator,rom,and anything else before you start inputting? That would not include ram searching since that is considered researching
Right - start your clock after you have the emulator started and ROM located, i.e. directly before you load the ROM and start your movie. There's no need to be strict in this trial attempt so I didn't specify it earlier, but this will ensure that you're starting at about the same state that runners would be at in a realtime competition.
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Can we use online information (game manual, maybe faqs)?
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Can we use online information (game manual, maybe faqs)?
- Any and all pre-existing content can be referenced but your input file must be unique So yes, you definitely should use part of those two hours to reference existing information, speedruns, etc., but use your time wisely as you can burn through it pretty quickly by researching. :)
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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So wait I got a question: Which version of Bible Adventures there are 5!
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Post subject: Wait, there are 5 versions?
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Spikestuff wrote:
So wait I got a question: Which version of Bible Adventures there are 5!
I... did not know this. I spoke with TASEditor and he stated he used version 1.2. If you can use 1.2, use that one just so the results are comparable. Since I did not specify at the start, use whatever version you want to and note the version in your submission. Sorry for not noticing this earlier.
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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Does playing the game casually count as research? Similarly, can you participate if you've played the game in the past?
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SmashManiac wrote:
Does playing the game casually count as research? Similarly, can you participate if you've played the game in the past?
Especially for this trial run, I see no reason why this would disqualify you. Even for the final iteration it is likely the runners will be given a list of possible games (a dozen or more games, likely) so they can at least ensure they have them but the goal is to have the final game choice be a surprise and have all the actual in-depth "How do I TAS this quickly?" part happen during the timed portion, if that made sense. It's probably pointless to try to "regulate" this out anyway - some people will have had more experience than others with a given game, and who would want to be told that they are disqualified for having too much experience? Great question - thanks for asking!
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I have no idea how long I took but I can easily say it was under 2 hours because I'm still at uni. Game Version: v1.2 In other words I am done. The file has been sent and destroyed so have fun.
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I think I'm finished at least =). CENSORED is the time it took to TAS (-5 minutes). Currently reviewing it while the timer is still running.
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Tompa, which version did you use? I used 1.2 and get desync on 1.3.
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Just a reminder to everyone, when you upload to userfiles, you can set the movie to hidden. This way no one can see it unless you send them the link. You can later edit your movie to make it unhidden at the end of the competition.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Post subject: A few submissions received - keep em' coming!
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I have been extremely pleased with the response of this competition so far. As noted, please upload your WIP's to movie storage as hidden and PM me the link. I'll be collecting all of them that I find the day after the deadline (hint: this means you can be a little bit late) and I'll make an announcement about the results, hopefully with some statistics. I might be asking for a volunteer to help with encodes, as I'd like to produce a race encode of the top x entries (either top 2 or top 4 depending on how ambitious the encoder is feeling). Thanks again, everyone.
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dwangoAC wrote:
solarplex wrote:
*game announced, every TASer realizes they dont have that rom, black out screens, and lets begin!
Heh - yeah, we'll have to handle this carefully. Possibly by giving the runners a list of games that they need to have on hand and then announcing one of them out of the group, or by selecting a freeware game with a downloadable link (this is probably a requirement if the "second" TAS'er is an open audience competition).
An alternative would be giving the game name one hour(Or a half hour?) before The TAS competition begin, so it gives time to the TASers to search the rom while SGDQ does it thing(Speedrunning game) or DwangoAC starting some demonstration. This way, it will be still a surprise. On the competition: ->I'll drop, I don't have the time to do it... I start school in three days and still need to do stuff about it. BUT, I think we should host some short competition just as this just to allow the TASer to polish their skills... Look at the SM64 TAS competition... or the level designing competition of SMWC. It's small, but it forces to polish some skills. I learned a lot by doing quick TASes(Didn't submit since I made silly mistakes such as beating a enemy I didn't have to and that only takes a lot of time). The competition could be simply complete a game. But it could be find useful adresses in a short time, use the least time X button, etc. Thoughts? ^^
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niamek wrote:
I think we should host some short competition just as this just to allow the TASer to polish their skills... Look at the SM64 TAS competition... or the level designing competition of SMWC. It's small, but it forces to polish some skills. I learned a lot by doing quick TASes(Didn't submit since I made silly mistakes such as beating a enemy I didn't have to and that only takes a lot of time). The competition could be simply complete a game. But it could be find useful adresses in a short time, use the least time X button, etc. Thoughts? ^^
I actually really like the idea of continuing to do this on a somewhat regular basis. I don't know if I would want to always be the coordinator, especially since this type of competition is ripe for abuse and hurt feelings if it isn't run well, but so far I'm happy with how this has worked out so I think there's a future for this. Thanks for the support!
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Yeah, the only problem for this would be defining very precise rules, especially for RAM adresses. For goals like use the least time X button, it's easy, use the less time possible, if two are egal, time is the factor. But for addresses? Maybe list addresses ase useless or unwanted(such as this from SMW RAM addresses(taken from SMWC) 7E:0078 1 byte Player Used to hide the player partially or fully. Format: dlucapLU. d = used in conjunction with all other set bits in order to disable processes such as the star timer decrementing. l = hide lower extra player tile when in flight (hovering with the cape). u = hide upper extra player tile when in flight (hovering with the cape). c = hide regular cape tile. a = hide attributive 8x8 tile. p = hide extra player tile that is shown during the inflated P-balloon pose (does not apply if the player is small). L = hide lower half of the body. U = hide upper half of the body. TAS competition could have it own forum(Like Speedrun competition the site have now) PS: I just want to make sure, but did you read the first part of my previous post?
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niamek wrote:
Yeah, the only problem for this would be defining very precise rules, especially for RAM adresses.
I don't anticipate there ever being a speed TASing competition with limitations or rules about memory addresses. I'll be honest in saying that I don't exactly understand what you are referencing. From my perspective, future speed TASing competitions might include things that wouldn't normally qualify as a submittable TAS such as "Take this obscure racing game and complete track X in the fastest in-game completion time and limit yourself to one hour". The fact that this is all on the honor system means that we really shouldn't be taking this too seriously - this is just for fun.
niamek wrote:
PS: I just want to make sure, but did you read the first part of my previous post?
Yes, and I think I already answered your point above, but to reiterate, if we have on-site TAS'ers that need to prepare, my plan is to give them way more than an hour to get the target TASing environment up and running with a selection of potential games, but withhold the game choice until the start of the block of time they have to work on it. Alternatively, I'll select a game that is free (at least free as in lunch) with a download link and everyone will be able to get it at the same time. This is more likely if the competition is open for audience participation, which I'm liking the concept of more and more. Anyway, I still don't think I've adequately answered your questions but I hope this at least helps. Thanks for your interest!
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Post subject: Time extended to effectively Monday morning PST
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So I'm bad at dates on the calendar and apparently overoptimistic on how much I can get done. I'm currently trying to get everything ready for the AGDQ submission so I'm going to push off the speed TAS competition deadline to more or less Monday morning PST time, although again I'll just be grabbing whatever files have been sent to me by then and take it from there. I have 8 submissions so far, which has been a good response. If you were on the fence, now is your chance to get a run in.
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About making addresses and other info available, it might be interesting. When I took the challenge I spent some of my time looking at memory and wasn't able to find much out in that time period. Then again, if the goal is for the result to be comparable to a realtime run then that might be too much help.